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Western Rite Liturgy from Saint Patrick's Orthodox Church

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by TheLostCoin, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Nobody is suggesting such hyperbole. Entertainment and excitement? Where do you get this?

    The West used to be part of Orthodoxy. It was holy and united with our faith. Don't tell me that the Celtic lands were celebrating the St. John Chrysostom liturgy. Why can't we look back at what the West was doing right BEFORE their albatross event of 1054 and restore the good things they turned their backs on? What is so wrong with reviving something beautiful and making it right? I just don't get the cynical angle. Nobody is saying the Divine Liturgy is insufficient, but why must that form of liturgy be the only option for all peoples across the world either? You have yet to prove a Western liturgy would bring any harm to Orthodoxy, just vague speculation. And it feels like there is a lack of faith in our patriarchs and bishops to protect it? I don't see pulling in Westerners who come from a Catholic or Anglican background who want their Western style of worship to continue while joining Holy Orthodoxy as some threat.

    Mind you, I'm in a Serb parish. I'm a HUGE fan of our liturgy. I adore it from beginning to end! I've never even gone to a WR liturgy. I just don't see the dastardly outcomes therein.

     
  2. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    related to this, but St Nektarios of Aegina adapted the Coptic Liturgy of St Mark for our use, and it is used. this is a Liturgy we haven't used for 500 more years than the Western Rite.
     
  3. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Do you mean the liturgy of St. Cyril, which is a recension of the Greek liturgy of St. Mark? We do not commonly call it the Liturgy of St. Mark (I've seen it referred to in parenthesis in this manner in some commentaries, but that's it), though it is recognized that this is its origin.

    What was the context for his doing this, if you don't mind me asking?
     
  4. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    Coming from a Roman Catholic background, I still have some baggage in terms of not trusting the clergy or the hierarchs as people with good, moral, theologically sound intentions.

    When people like Father James Martin are promoted by the highest places of the Vatican without any discipline or censorship, and the Vatican directly lends liturgical artwork for the "Heavenly Bodies" fashion exhibit, literally blaspheming - in the most disgusting and vile way possible - the Saints, the Theotokos, and Christ Himself (I urge you not to google it, for your eyes will be scandalized if you see it), inherent mistrust of authority is the result.


    Backing up this baggage is the fact that the Clergy in the past HAVE apostatized, which can be seen with every bishop that attended Florence (except Saint Mark of Ephesus). The fact that we have several supposed (emphasis on "supposed") Russian prophecies about a massive apostasy heading our way in the future that will make it such that we cannot normally attend Liturgy in mainstream Churches; we'll have to go back to the Catacombs.

    However, these doubts are still no excuse for my mistrust of clergy now, whom I guess I have to trust. The Church will prevail in the end anyways, and if the Western Rite is irregular (which I truly don't think it is), then hopefully a Council will elaborate on it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  5. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I hear ya. I’m a former Catholic as well. I brought heaps of baggage. But fortunately the clergy who deal with such things are Orthodox, not Catholic. I think I’m our church we hear the word “Western” and instantly cross-dressing Episcopalian Wicca priestesses or South American liberation theologians or liturgical dance-advocating cookoo priests come to mind...

     
  6. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    When I watched the first 10 minutes of it, what I saw was identical to the Anglican Use Liturgy of the Roman Church. Had I not known what I was looking at, I would have thought I was watching the Anglicans.

    Yes, very nice, but I have become quite spoiled to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and if I am led out of where I am now......will probably go OCA, even though St. Patrick's is only an hour from my front door.
     
  7. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Understood, and I apologize if my post seemd like arguing. I think I just meant to say that I don't see the reasons for opposing it. Not liking it, fine. I mean, I like our style of worship, but part of it is that I just like standing. It's just my preference. Even if there are good reasons to stand, I just like it anyway. So if something else I don't like -well, whatever. It's not meant to be pleasing to me.

    There are all kinds of local variations. Often we celebrate them. So this is another one. '
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    yes, that's the one I mean.

    as for his reasons why, I suspect it was because he was under Alexandria, and so had a lot of dealings with Copts. if you look at a lot of what he did (adapting the Liturgy of St Cyril, writing the hymn "Oh Pure Virgin," writing a huge book on Christology, etc.) there was a clear Alexandrian influence.
     
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  9. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

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    On a side note - I am of the Byzantine school, however I truly enjoy Gregorian and Mozarabic Chant:


     
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  10. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    It not for me, I'm so used to the Byzantine rite liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. That doesn't mean I don't see reverence or the love God in the western rite liturgies, with that said I wonder why we have to reconstruct pre-schism liturgies to make it easier for Catechumans into Orthodoxy, there some concerns I have with kneeling on Sundays, Catholic rosaries, pipe organs, Corpus Christi , the Immaculte heart, etc that many Orthodox would find problematic to say the least. No, it doesn't mean I don't have faith in our bishops, who have good hearts in wanting to help converts into Orthodoxy, but I ask why make it easier, when Orthodoxy isn't supposed to be easy?
     
  11. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    No, it shouldn't be easy, but intentionally allowing it to be harder for no reason is clearly not the Christian way, especially when it isn't hard for you personally as an individual.

    Was it sinful when Veronica wiped the face of Christ on the Road to Cavalry?

    And also, Luke 11:46.

    The Immaculate Heart and the Sacred Heart are generally not allowed in Western Rite Orthodoxy as devotions; there is no feast day on the calendars of either ROCOR or Antioch for them, and priests that have tried to implement it have had it voided by their Bishops once they find out about it.

    And the question of Pipe Organs and kneeling is a question to be addressed, primarily with kneeling, due to the Council of Trullo which the Eastern Orthodox accept forbidding it at points. However, if the Greeks can do it (Pipe Organs and kneeling), then so can the Western Rite.

    The rosary is also a serious question, because even though the words are Orthodox (except the Latin Nicene Creed) (I don't get why asking to pray to the Mother of God to pray for us now and the hour of our death, and adding "as it was in the beginning" to the Doxology is heretical), the spirituality probably isn't.

    It also is worth pointing out that Corpus Christi is not allowed in ROCOR.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  12. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are Byzantine Rite parishes that have kneeling on Sundays.
     
  13. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Yep! The Greek parish down the street from my Serb parish has tons of kneeling and sitting during their liturgy. Their DL is only one hour long! It has an organ, too. It's always a culture shock for me to go to that parish. Our liturgy is closer to 2 hours, standing the entire time (except sermon), very thorough, no organ.

     
  14. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    I have never been to a Orthodox Church where kneeling was OK, and pipe organs used, this seems to mostly in Greek Churches that are in protestant buildings with the Organ. How can GOARCH allow this?
     
  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    And it makes me want to scream, pull my hair out and yell "You are ORTHODOX!!! STOP KNEELING!!!!"

    (Yeah, I know.....not really Orthodox fully!)
     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    The BEST Orthodox Divine Liturgy I ever attended was at an OCA parish in Lincoln NE.

    NO PEWS!!!!

    NO KNEELING!!!

    LOTS OF INCENSE!!!

    If my wife ever moves us out there, I am joining. No questions asked.
     
  17. MariaJLM

    MariaJLM Crazy Cat Lady

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    How do they get through Liturgy in an hour? Even when rushed the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom still takes about an hour and a half.
     
  18. MariaJLM

    MariaJLM Crazy Cat Lady

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    I'm honestly confused when people say Greek churches have organs. All the Greek church here has is traditional Byzantine Chant.
     
  19. MariaJLM

    MariaJLM Crazy Cat Lady

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    Except neither me nor my priest feel the Western Rite is even necessary to bring in converts(people will come in regardless of which liturgy is used if they have interest in doing so). It's not even an authentic Pre-Schism Rite either, but a reconstructed version of an old Anglican Rite. For that reason my priest is really not a fan of the Western Rite and I'm inclined to agree.
     
  20. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    The priest reads parts of the Divine Liturgy on his own while the liturgy goes on. He's multi-tasking it royally. Things move FAST there. I remember one time when I was there and the DL was 54 minutes long. True story. My parish is closer to 2 hours.

     
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