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We're getting there - Abortion is Morally Good

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Andrei D, May 23, 2019.

  1. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Now you make me feel old. I was in the military under Reagan!
     
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  2. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Ha!

    That's open to manipulation though. I had 45k followers on Pinterest soon after I signed up. I used to work SEO.

    I'm often interested (and sometimes amused) to see numbers of likes on FB. But I have trouble understanding how some young people actually put value on such things (and translate that into self-worth).
     
  3. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I thought you were around 10 years older than me?

     
  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I was born under Reagan...
     
  5. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I was born shortly after Kennedy, Lewis, and Huxley died.
     
  6. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    [​IMG]

    The latest photo of Rus is in....taken this week.

     
  7. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I was born the same year Jaws came out, Francisco Franco died, Jimmy Hoffa disappeared, Ali defeated Fraser, and Chris Squire issued his one and only solo album! :sorry::oldthumbsup:

     
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  8. Greengardener

    Greengardener for love is of God Supporter

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    Hi, Everyone. I'm new here. As a young married person many years ago, I miscarried my first pregnancy of a child I never got to see, but I had named him Samuel from the moment I asked for him, and for me that person feels real. Last year our family agonized over the miscarriage of my daughter's first pregnancy, a little girl, who made it about the same length of gestation as my loss, and my daughter cradled her 4 or 5 inch long body in one hand until it was obvious she had to put the tiny and very real pall down to carry on life. You can imagine that the pro-choice or anti-abortion debate touches our lives with tender memories because those tiny bodies belong to real and separate individuals, only different from adults by normal nurturing and time. It's an odd thing to contemplate that God who made man in His image, made man to have choice. Any random person could choose to shoot up kids at the local elementary school and it's clear we are against that: we all call that murder and there is no hidden agenda that it might be birth control or a way out of an unwanted pregnancy. The very mother of a tiny life can legally choose to end that tiny life in a voluntary abortion: we are still wondering whether she has the right to make the choice to free herself from an unwanted pregnancy (a situation we can feel empathetic toward since it is her body involved in the hosting) when it costs the life (real or potential) of another human. I remember how horrific it was to hear the details of a saline abortion of a friend's acquaintance which happened about the time of Roe v. Wade, but for the several individuals I know that have had an abortion over the many years the procedure has been legal showed me that there is a lot of human pain in any situation where abortion is a reality. Regardless the damage inflicted on people by so called Christian leaders who preach a dominating doctrine or a message of money, I've found the scriptures themselves to be a source of information for how to navigate in life and it's become really clear that the book is there for our instruction. Had the message of God been for coercion, God would have forced Adam and Eve to do His will in the garden, but He allowed them to choose their choices and live with their consequences, just as He did with so many other examples. He didn't put into place a talisman, a support for magical thinking, a guaranty that in this life we will have wishes granted or magical rescues, or princes on white horses to always save us from ourselves in our everyday choices. Life and what we make of it is quite the educator, but if we would seek Wisdom we are assured we will find God. Somewhere between Moses, Solomon, and Jesus, we get the clear picture that there is a way to choose "good" which leads to life and there is a way to choose "not good" and the outcome is far bumpier. The fact that we can choose is not part of the question, just that we shouldn't expect turnips from weed seeds. We do end up with a natural harvest of consequences based on our choices and this fact (reap what we sow) works so much better when learned earlier instead of by hindsight. I'm not an accomplished writer, but this is what was on my mind when I noticed this thread.
     
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  9. LizaMarie

    LizaMarie Newbie

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    I would add that Mother Theresa of Calcutta once said that any society that accepts legalized abortion would have violence in it's streets. I'm paraphrasing what she said but we see that today.
    Abortion on demand has cheapened our view of the preciousness of human life, anyone born after 1973 knows that they are only here because they were "wanted" or "convenient". "Every child a wanted child!" was the Planned Parenthood slogan.
    How about- Every child is a precious child wanted by God?"
    I'm old enough to remember when Roe V Wade was decided. I was a sophomore in high school. I remember all the arguments made for legalized abortion on demand:
    It would curtail out of wedlock births.
    It could help strengthen marriages so no "unwanted" children would be born, and would remove the fear of pregnancy.
    It would empower women to be able to decide their own destinies without fear of pregnancy.
    The Scriptures tell us there is a way that seems right to Man, but ends in death.
    Tell me, did any of the above happen? Is our society, are women, better off because of legalized abortion on demand?
    The Pro Life movement of the time, much smaller than today, ( a lot of Christians remained silent or even thought Roe was a good thing) warned of the "slippery slope" argument. (Roman Catholics, the Orthodox and LCMS and WELS were always pro-life)
    Pro lifers argued that if we go down this path, infanticide and compulsory euthanasia might not be far behind.
    And Gee, here in 2019 we are debating whether a full term baby can be left on the table to die, if the mother doesn't want it or wanted an abortion.
     
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  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    For a long time we were told that to say that we would end up exactly here was a 'slippery slope fallacy' used by anti-woman people who just wanted to control women's bodies and sexuality. Here's what I don't get about that: if the baby is already born, then how exactly is advocating that it not be left to die somehow still controlling the woman's body or sexuality? It's already outside of her body. It's already the 'result' of her exercise of her sexuality or whatever. It's its own person, separate from her.

    There is of course the argument that it is dependent and hence she is still responsible for it and blahblahblah. Yeah. And that's true to varying degrees until the child is 18 years old (sometimes much longer). Does that mean that parents should be allowed to kill their teenagers when they'd rather not deal with them? In that case, I highly doubt that any of us would be alive right now!

    Where does it end? People accuse pro-life people of being 'obsessed with the fetus' and giving it all these rights above that of the mother, but somehow can never see the gigantic blind spot involved making the mother essentially into judge, jury, and executioner, if she feels like that's what she'd rather be than a mother (and as we all know, being alive is more of a privilege with regard to rights than being allowed to murder people with impunity...riiiiight). And yet the language has still been manipulated by the pro-abortionists to make it about "a woman's right" or "the mother's right". How do you have that right when not being a mother? It'd be like if I were to almost enlist in the Army, decide at some point in the process that I didn't want to do so, but then still expect to be the deciding voice in planning military strategy, all because that could've been me! "Why are you here? You didn't even go through basic training." "Yeah, but I was going to, though." "But you didn't." "Are you questioning my right to make my own decisions? It's my life and my body, you bigot!"

    This world is just insane.
     
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  11. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    You know what's scary? That actually makes perfect sense from a progressive/post-structuralist frame of reference (or lack thereof, actually).
     
  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    yes it does
     
  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Well it's the world that we're living in in the West, so in a weird way I would hope it would make sense from their viewpoint. Since we (like every generation, I suppose) are living in the time of which our father St. Anthony, the Father of the Monks, said (from memory) "people will go mad, and upon seeing a person who is not mad, they will seize him and say 'He is not like us!'", it might be helpful that we can understand the mad, so as to not be carried away with them and maybe, just maybe, inspire some of them to think before joining the mob.

    Basically: if that argument looks ridiculous on its face (and it should), but you agree with it in 'structural principle' (i.e., swap out the participants and setting, and you'll cheer it on in the name of "women's rights" or whatever), then think about what you are saying about your own arguments. God-willing, many will leave this way of thinking in shame and embarrassment, but enlightened to be better thinkers. (Not that I personally am anything great; I've just had a lot of great teachers. :) At least at my university, they did make us take logic and philosophy courses in the Linguistics major; I don't think all universities do that, but they probably should.)
     
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  14. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I debated posting St. Anthony's quote.

    I just decided to avoid the debate a few weeks ago and it's still on my conscience that I didn't say anything. The suggestion was posted that those who support and those who oppose abortion should "compromise" ... and the compromise suggested was that abortion on demand be legal - but only up to 5 months' gestation. Relating to the idea of viability.

    I didn't jump in but I REALLY wanted to ask (1) how do they see it as a "compromise" to simply allow abortion and (2) if you're going to argue for viability, why don't you allow abortions only after a certain point, when the child at least has a chance of surviving on its own?

    It's all crazy/backwards. People aren't thinking.
     
  15. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Just to let you know, members can start a thread in the MSC to discuss these matters, but it is specifically against forum-wide rules to discuss staff action publicly. Just letting you know with a suggestion that you edit your post.
     
  16. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    MOD HAT

    Take any problems to the support area. Posts that discuss staff actions will be deleted

    MOD HAT
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  17. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    Here is an even more honest viewpoint:

     
  18. Kristos

    Kristos Servant

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    Me too. Reagan, Bush, Clinton...
     
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    My goodness...

    God forgive me, but the snarky jerk in me wants to find this lady next time I have the flu, throw up on her doorstep, and when she gets mad say "What?! I didn't want to do the digestional work."

    Because, y'know, things that the body naturally does under certain conditions are a burden you should be free to liberate yourself from at any time, with no preconditions or restrictions from "the enemy" who would wish to restrict your full autonomy.

    But seriously, I hate to break it to this lady, but talk like this makes it clear that she has already given herself over to the enemy by her horrid philosophy, only that enemy is not the pro-life movement like she thinks it is, but the demonic forces which are pleased to see her argue as she does, and would like to see her murderous viewpoint win over ever-increasing swaths of the society and the wider world.

    May God bring them and all their evil work to naught.
     
  20. The Faceless

    The Faceless Has A Face

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    To the gulag with that one.
     
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