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We're getting there - Abortion is Morally Good

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Andrei D, May 23, 2019.

  1. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    Abortion Is Morally Good
    Sarah Jones, New York Magazine May 21, 2019

     
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  2. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    When one reads things like this it becomes clearer and clearer that some of the "pro-choice" movement's loudest voices are people who grew up in fundamentalist evangelical households where they were force fed scripture verses and condemned for any action that was perceived to be in opposition of this movement. When they finally got old enough to escape this world, they ran as far away from it as possible, and into a new world that completely contradicted every social norm and spiritual belief of their old world.

    I see this time and again when you read pieces from left wing authors. They write about growing up as a "Christian" and feeling choked and stifled by their upbringing. They then project these feelings about Christianity onto everybody - Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists etc.

    The thing is, Orthodoxy is way different from Evangelical Protestantism. Sure, it is a morally conservative religion, but it is not oppressive in ways like the author describes her experience of Christianity to be. Orthodox Christians are taught to love human life and treasure it through our sacraments, through our connection with the saints, through the liturgy which unites us and brings us together. We see in each other real people struggling on the path to salvation, just like us. Our mission is to pray for each other and provide aid to the fallen. Our mission is not to thump bibles over people's heads while reverencing Ronald Reagan with our free hand. We work towards God.

    And what of people who have had an abortion? Or who have sexual relationships outside of marriage, or with people of the same sex? We do not condemn them and say, "the bible says that you are damned to hell." We pray for them and acknowledge that we are all fallen. We offer confession as a way for these people to heal, and offer a hand of friendship when they ask for it. That's quite a difference.

    As more and more people feel oppressed and spiritually devoid in their traditions, we need to open our door for them so that they do not fall away from God and end up wielding a sword against him. We still need to remain true to the faith that we inherited, but we need to demonstrate the Christian virtue of love in our actions, so that through our witness people might choose to lay down their weapons and join us on the path to salvation.
     
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  3. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I think you're truly correct, and I have been saying something very similar in here and elsewhere for some time now....

    The late 1970's and the 1980's were abominable times for "real" Christianity. You had these fundamentalist wackadoodles on TV with crazy snow-white hair running around in seersucker suits Benny Hinn style grabbing people by the head shouting "receeeeeeeeeive the Holy Uh-Spirituhhhhhhh and beyuuuuh saayyyyyyyyvuddduhhhhhhh" as they grab an old lady in the head and knock her over on the stage. She gets up supposedly healed and dances the Macarena. Then the same seersucker evangelist begs people to hand over as much $$$$$$ as they can to his psycho ministry.

    We hear
    "ARE YOU SAVED!?"
    "You must support the State of Israel if you want salvation!"
    "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? Then you're in!!!"
    "Come up and receive the anointinggggggg"
    "hell, fire, brimstone, hell, flames, burning, hot coals, lake of fire, burning, sizzling, hot, burrrrrrn!"

    You hear nary a word from these loons about helping the orphans or the widows, nothing about stopping abortion or giving back to the community. You hear nothing about God's genuine love or His victory over death. It's all about the Cross and a snapshot moment of accepting a savior, and essentially that's it. It was a time of empty and silly promises, greed, bloviating, and prosperity gospel nonsense.

    In high school, all the "saved" kids I knew were super hypocrites and most were on drugs. That's why I turned to Buddhism and Eastern mysticism as a teenager. On my SAT test, when asked religion, I put "Buddhist." My mom was less than happy about that. But at the time, I saw Christianity as a bunch of morally bankrupt idiots who hid behind the robe of Jesus just being "saved" and conducting business as usual. With Buddhism I saw meditation, charity, calm, quiet stillness, prayer, incense, peace, fasting, the "Middle Way" between the extremes, and a leader in Siddhartha Gautama who advocated a very sane and coherent placidity to life.

    Little did I know that, sans the emptying of one's "self" and the idea of Nirvana and other stuff, Orthodoxy was what I was seeking----a coherent leader (Christ Jesus), incense, meditation, quiet calm, seeking after peace, fasting, the middle way, charity, love.....

    Many Americans saw the TV evangelist maniacs as genuine Christianity. I know I did in a way. Now the chickens have come home to roost and that whole Generation X I belong to plus the Baby Boomers are fast into atheism, cynicism, abortion, euthanasia, legalized dope, socialism and surrender, gimmee my free stuff, the LGBT lie, and every other thing they see as the antithesis of the 1980's TV evangelical hallelujah squad.

    I always tell people, "Imagine what America would've been like had it been founded on Holy Orthodoxy!" I wonder if we'd have had a 1960's hippie movement or the drug culture we have or the rampant perversion, LGBT sickness, abortion baby-killing machinery so beloved, and so much cynicism. Orthodoxy shows a Jesus triumphant, victor over victim, a dragon-slaying hero. It shows us a loving God not a vengeful blood-thirsty legal figure. It shows us hope, joy, and ultimately that beautiful paschal resurrection. Our Church is so holistic, sane, rational yet mysterious, so focused on finding peace and sharing it with others. We have so many good clergy (2 of them in this forum!) and so many good parishioners. There is so much that is beautiful and sane in Orthodoxy. I still say it's unacceptable what a "best kept secret" we are. That needs to stop.

    The sad world we're in comes from sin, but also false representations and dumb theology from people who were clueless....


     
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  4. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    That's what I think as well Gurney.

    Many people from this specific persuasion tout how they "revitalized" Christianity, and grew the church, but what they don't see is all the disenfranchised people that they left behind. Now they cry about persecution, failing to see that a large number of the people who are aiming at them are their own fallen flock.

    That flock is now aiming to take us down as well, even though we have done nothing too them.
     
  5. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    But just remember, Russia HAD Holy Orthodox, and yet sin, hypocrisy and all the rest tore it down (despite the Optin Elders) and lead to godless Communism there.

    As to what this woman said, there is no negotiating with them. It's going to be them or us. In the long run, it's "the long defeat" and everything is up to Christ. But in our own short run, either we can stave off and delay evil, or we can't.
     
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  6. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    That it did.

    Just remember that the darkness that over-swept Russia spawned from western philosophers (like Marx) who despised religion. When this combined with the inequalities facing Russians at the time, it ignited like a wildfire and destroyed everything that was in its path. Orthodoxy got caught in the crossfire, and I'm afraid that will happen in the U.S. as well.

    You are right to point this out. Sin and wickedness is like a poison. If it is not staved off early enough, it will spread quickly and take down many with it.
     
  7. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Agreed....but I do miss Ronald Reagan big time! ^_^

     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and, I would add, it was the fundamentalist televangelist types which politicized abortion and equated being pro-life to voting Republican.
     
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  9. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    The televangelist movement was a disaster for Christianity in the west in many ways, politicizing the abortion issue as to "vote for freedom! " not realizing that voting for the neoconservatives of the modern GOP was also voting for Automation - where jobs are replaced by machines, and many of the unemployed turn to opiods to fill the void,the Materialitic view of the world, Ayn Rand style "Greed as a virtue" - while not seeing Greed as a sin, rabid individualism - where you see the death of the local community, and the neighborhood, hench the local churches emptying too, lately I woke up to realize I don't know any of my neighbors , not even by name, so I can be guilty.

    Also the Televangelists brought a lot of errors and heresies like anti-trinitarianism(Benny Hinn mini trinity garbage for example) , the Wealth Prosperity Gospel(TBN and GODtv push this crap a lot) Dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, Dominionism, praise bands, the dreaded "Christian Rock".

    What the lady in the article grew up with was a deformed version of Christianity , often very stifling , and controlling, devoid of any real actual expirence of God, the problem is now as a grown up, she went in the opposite direction wanting maximum "freedom" viewing Christianity as "Authortarian". The new culture she embraced does view human life "as a mere fetusus" and infanticide as "not murder" so this lady gone in the other far extreme by embracing the humanistic worldview, and the culture of death that comes along with it.

    We as Orthodox need Christ and our Church more than ever, we must not be like the world. Yet also at the same time , we can't be isolated any longer in ethnic ghettos, or not trying to bring people in, who need the Church so much.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  10. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    That the problem , instead of forgiveness, these people are out against all forms of Christianity , and it not just former Baptist fundamentalists or evengalical wackos, some of the most vicious anti-Christians I ever came across have been former Catholics, and there a lot of them.
     
  11. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    Meh, While he had some good in his presidency and I would happily take him over everyone after him, let's not fool ourselves that Reagan didn't cause some our problems as Governor and President. As the Gov supported No fault divorce and Theruphtic abortion, as president appointed Sandra Day O Connor to the Supreme court, he also opposed the Briggs initative. He was sadly also more economic conservative than Social Conservative at times, sort of like a Libertarian. With that said he had class, and seemed very devout in his Presbyterian faith, and supported the Mexico City initative, and traditional marriage.
     
  12. The Faceless

    The Faceless Has A Face

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    I'm sure the Nazis thought they were on a moral mission too. This is the new Holocaust.

    So many of us share blame. We could be doing things so differently which would encourage life, but money, greed, and hatred is the path taken instead.

    Lord, have mercy.
     
  13. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think I can add a lot to this thread, but...

    1) Does Ms. Jones really make the argument that the adult woman is worth "more" than the child because she is more "accomplished"? I didn't imagine that, right? So maybe rich women with good jobs and a list of degrees can get a few more abortions than some loser who hasn't accomplished much? Can we follow this "argument" through a little father, please?

    2) When I read the Philip Dick story "The Pre-Persons" decades ago, it seemed pointlessly extreme and unbelievable. Now it just looks...prescient, which I guess was his job as a science-fiction writer. I recommend this story to everyone. You can maybe find the text somewhere if you look, or get a book that includes it at the library or from some bookstore.
     
  14. The Faceless

    The Faceless Has A Face

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    Their "20+ weeks rare" argument is long dead.
     
  15. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    AAA.. great reference, and we're almost there: https://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/39/5/261.full.pdf

     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  16. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    That's exactly where I took that thought.

    If killing the unborn is acceptable for the convenience of his/her more "accomplished" mother ... then well, all newborns are unaccomplished. They are disposable? When there is a lack of resources, perhaps we should kill the preschoolers who are not learning as fast as their brighter peers? If a drugged out loser has inherited a property that his rich neighbor wants to develop, maybe we should kill him too for the sake of convenience and the greater good of all - after all they will benefit more from the developed property than they do from a drug-user who is a bane on society?

    Of course, you have to worry about who is making the decisions of who is beneficial and who is not. Whose convenience or betterment matters. And what criteria weigh the value of any person?
     
  17. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    You make a great point, Rus, and you do indeed point out a hole in my theory, but I guess I'm simply saying that the 1980's and the evangelical crazy spiritual junk food fed to everyone sure didn't help. I know from experience. I saw that stuff as "Christianity" and it turned me OFF! And seeing Jesus as a punching bag for the angry Father God made me really question the notion of god in general! That's why Buddhism resonated with me.

    You're right about Russia. But I also think Russia (and I READILY yield that you know fifty times more than yours truly about Russia as you live there and are married to a Russian woman and have so many years experience seeing it all first hand!) is an exception to world development......Let me explain.

    Karl Marx said that for his beloved communism to truly take root and matter and work properly (as if it ever truly could), the proletariat has to go through the "evils" of capitalism. People need to be burned hard by the "man" and see how capitalism creates a greedy, vulture-like, competitive, dog-eat-dog atmosphere. People need to hit a capitalism boiling point until they take up the cause, unite, rise up, and have a red revolution!

    Problem is, Russia didn't ever truly enter capitalism. They were a bunch of serfs, massive staggering poverty and insane population size with a small group of rich monarchs. They hit two world wars, and yes, they did have a robust manufacturing sector and plenty of factories, but they never had the full-on capitalist experience. Marx, if I recall correctly, said Russia would be a terrible place for communism to thrive.....And yet the "Reds" had more success there than anywhere.

    But back to your point that just because Orthodoxy is in the DNA of the people doesn't mean they'll stay true to it.....I yield to your point.

     
  18. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    My biggest beef with Reagan was his awful stance on gun ownership. He banned open-carry in California and wasn't tough enough on protecting our 2A rights.

    But I think Reagan was able to carry a conservative message without being disagreeable, outlandish, or vulgar. He was statesman-like without hyperbole. He sandwiched Democrats into negotiating and meeting in the middle. I miss that. But then again, Democrats weren't then what they are now. Ugh. And Republicans weren't full neocons yet then either (ugh again).

    My dad was in the military under Reagan, and he told me on a regular basis that it was truly Reagan who brought respect, financial backing, morale, and strength back to the U.S. armed forces.

     
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  19. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Number of total likes on Facebook seems fair, right?
     
  20. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    MINUS any politically incorrect speech detected by Zuck's AI
     
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