Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Arcoe]

Who created hell?

For whom was it created?

 

[guuila]

For whom was it created?

The devil and his angels, who will be accompanied by the reprobate. God always intended for unbelievers to go there, for he loved the world in this manner - that he sent his only son so that the ones believing in him would not perish, but have eternal life. Great verse.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Condemned? No. Responsible? Yes. We have no one to blame but ourselves when we sin. In that sense, we are held accountable for them.

This is primarily about Hammster's original assertion that Paul, when he sinned, did that which he "ultmately wanted." But this is not what Paul said. He said,

For to will is present with me. But how to perform that which is good I find not."

He went so far as to say,

"It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me."

The regenerated and converted sinner does not want to sin.

 

[guuila]

This is primarily about Hammster's original assertion that Paul, when he sinned, did that which he "ultmately wanted." But this is not what Paul said. He said,

For to will is present with me. But how to perform that which is good I find not."

He went so far as to say,

"It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me."

The regenerated and converted sinner does not want to sin.

Right. And I explained what I believe Paul meant in the context... I believe he's talking about keeping the law of God and how that's what he desires in his inner man, i.e., his regenerate self, but indwelling sin and the body of death he's encased in hold him captive and prevents him from keeping the law to the degree he desires to, which would be perfectly. That should be every Christian's desire.

The regenerated and converted sinner does not want to sin.

Did David want Bathsheba? I think it's erroneous to not acknowledge that we're capable of having contradicting desires. I desire to not sin, but I also desire to sin. As far as I know, most of the time I sin it's because I make the willing choice to do it. It's not because someone is holding a gun to my head and making me do something I don't want to do.

 

[cygnusx1]

Right. And I explained what I believe Paul meant in the context... I believe he's talking about keeping the law of God and how that's what he desires in his inner man, i.e., his regenerate self, but indwelling sin and the body of death he's encased in hold him captive and prevents him from keeping the law to the degree he desires to, which would be perfectly. That should be every Christian's desire.



Did David want Bathsheba? I think it's erroneous to not acknowledge that we're capable of having contradicting desires. I desire to not sin, but I also desire to sin. As far as I know, most of the time I sin it's because I make the willing choice to do it. It's not because someone is holding a gun to my head and making me do something I don't want to do.

Instead of thinking of a gun to the head , think of sin as a powerful presence , a presence that enslaves the will and tricks the mind.

Did David choose to sin ? Maybe he did , but choice is not always the way of sin , some men are compulsive liars , others kleptomaniacs .

Some sin in ignorance and will be punished , even Christians are accountable for sins they desire not to commit.

" That which is born of God does not sin "seems to indicate it isn't their new nature but their old nature that sometimes compelled them against their wills .

It really comes down to how a Christian is meant to view themselves , often it seems a Christian is a two headed creature with two wills , but that can't be the case.

 

[guuila]

Did David choose to sin ? Maybe he did , but choice is not always the way of sin , some men are compulsive liars , others kleptomaniacs .

David most definitely chose to sin:

It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking on the roof of the king's house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, “Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” So David sent messengers and took her, and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she had been purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, “I am pregnant.” (2 Samuel 11:2-5 ESV)

1. David thought the woman was beautiful. He thought so willingly.
2. David sent and inquired about the woman. He did so willingly.
3. David sent messengers. He did so willingly.
4. David took her. He did so willingly.
5. David lay with her. He did so willingly.

If a person lies, they chose to lie. Nobody or nothing is making them lie against their will.

Some sin in ignorance and will be punished , even Christians are accountable for sins they desire not to commit.

Yes, I believe there are times I sin today not knowing I'm sinning, but it still doesn't change the fact that I did it willingly.

 

[cygnusx1]

David most definitely chose to sin:

It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking on the roof of the king's house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, “Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” So David sent messengers and took her, and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she had been purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, “I am pregnant.” (2 Samuel 11:2-5 ESV)

1. David thought the woman was beautiful. He thought so willingly.
2. David sent and inquired about the woman. He did so willingly.
3. David sent messengers. He did so willingly.
4. David took her. He did so willingly.
5. David lay with her. He did so willingly.

If a person lies, they chose to lie. Nobody or nothing is making them lie against their will.



Yes, I believe there are times I sin today not knowing I'm sinning, but it still doesn't change the fact that I did it willingly.

So , why do you think Paul spoke of sinning when he desired not to ?

Why did he , and he even repeated it , say he did what he didn't will ?

Also why does John say that which is born of God does not sin ?

I don't think some choose to lie , some do some don't , there is a clinical condition for quite a few sins .

Am I defending sin or excusing the sinner ?

No way , no more than a Calvinist does when He says all Things are decreed and that men are still judged .

 

[Jack Terrence]

Right. And I explained what I believe Paul meant in the context... I believe he's talking about keeping the law of God and how that's what he desires in his inner man, i.e., his regenerate self, but indwelling sin and the body of death he's encased in hold him captive and prevents him from keeping the law to the degree he desires to, which would be perfectly. That should be every Christian's desire.

You seem to miss though that Paul says nothing about a conflicting will. He wills to do good only but does not know how to do it.

I think it's erroneous to not acknowledge that we're capable of having contradicting desires. I desire to not sin, but I also desire to sin.

I disagree. Paul told the Galatians that the spirit lusts against the flesh and the flesh lusts against the spirit so that we cannot do the things that we want. The word "spirit" here is not the Holy Spirit. The context indicates that it is our spirit which is at odds with our flesh. The word "we" is the self and is part of the spirit and not the flesh. We want to do good but the flesh gets in our way.

The spirit (I) desires against my flesh (that inwhich I reside), and my flesh (that which I reside) desires against the spirit (I), so that I cannot do the things I want (which are the things that are good).

Paul said, "It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me." There was a time when Paul's "I" did it. But "no longer" he says.

As far as I know[/b], most of the time I sin it's because I make the willing choice to do it. It's not because someone is holding a gun to my head and making me do something I don't want to do.

You say "as far as I know" because you are going by what you feel you are rather than what you really are. You do this because sin has deceived you. This is why I said to Hammster that he under estimates the deceitfulness of sin.

What you really are as a regenerate and converted man is a man who ALWAYS desires to do good.

 

[guuila]

So , why do you think Paul spoke of sinning when he desired not to ?

Because sin is still an issue in the life of the believer.

Why did he , and he even repeated it , say he did what he didn't will ?

Same reason I'm saying I do what I don't will to do. I don't will to sin, but I still sin willingly.

Also why does John say that which is born of God does not sin ?

I've never really studied that verse, but it seems like it can mean a number of things. Can you explain what you think it means?

I don't think some choose to lie , some do some don't , there is a clinical condition for quite a few sins .

So if a psychologist stamps a label on it as being a clinical condition, that means the person isn't willingly doing it? I don't see your point here.

 

[guuila]

You seem to miss though that Paul says nothing about a conflicting will. He wills to do good only but does not know how to do it.

If you're talking about Rom. 7:18, that seems like a bad translation. If Paul "didn't know how" to do good, he wouldn't be able to say he willed to do good in the first place because he wouldn't know what good is. Obviously if a person knows what good is, they know how to do it. It's simply the opposite of doing bad. It's not as though Paul was ignorant. Really it should be translated as more of an inability to do this good he speaks of, not a lack of knowledge. The verse literally says that the willing is present but the doing of the good is not. Nothing about 'not knowing' something.

I disagree. Paul told the Galatians that the spirit lusts against the flesh and the flesh lusts against the spirit so that we cannot do the things that we want. The word "spirit" here is not the Holy Spirit. The context indicates that it is our spirit which is at odds with our flesh. The word "we" is the self and is part of the spirit and not the flesh. We want to do good but the flesh gets in our way.

What are you saying? That you want to do good and then your flesh takes over, holds a gun to your head as it were, and then forces you to do what you don't want to do?

You say "as far as I know" because you are going by what you feel you are rather than what you really are. You do this because sin has deceived you. This is why I said to Hammster that he under estimates the deceitfulness of sin.

What you really are as a regenerate and converted man is a man who ALWAYS desires to do good.

Are you telling me that if a person willfully sins they aren't regenerate?

 

[cygnusx1]

Because sin is still an issue in the life of the believer.



Same reason I'm saying I do what I don't will to do. I don't will to sin, but I still sin willingly.



I've never really studied that verse, but it seems like it can mean a number of things. Can you explain what you think it means?



So if a psychologist stamps a label on it as being a clinical condition, that means the person isn't willingly doing it? I don't see your point here.

1. How does sins still being a problem explain why Paul could say he sinned against his will , he did say he sinned even though he didn't will to .... Saying its just a problem doesn't answer the issue of the point at debate : the will .

2. You say "I don't will to sin but I still sin willingly " and you don't see the contradiction in that statement ? Why didn't Paul say the same thing ?

3 . The verse in 1 John means the regenerate nature , Christ in us cannot sin. If a Christian does sin it is not his new person/nature that sins but his flesh.

4. Are there places in scripture that describe sin as a sickness ? See Isaiah

I think the will is taken captive by sin ... Through the deceitfulness of sin and the unguarded heart .

Do you think Paul blamed his will or his sin , his will or his "body of death " ?

The will seems , at least to me , inclined rather than the incliner .

Sorry to have to number the answers but multi quoting on ipad is a pain .

 

[guuila]

1. How does sins still being a problem explain why Paul could say he sinned against his will , he did say he sinned even though he didn't will to .... Saying its just a problem doesn't answer the issue of the point at debate : the will .

I have answered this several times. We're able to will more than one thing at a time. I ultimately will to be sinless, but there are times when I willingly sin. That's the flesh deceiving me I suppose. Either way, I didn't do anything against my will.

2. You say "I don't will to sin but I still sin willingly " and you don't see the contradiction in that statement ? Why didn't Paul say the same thing ?

Yes, I even said it was contradictory, or at least seems that way. Anytime we ever make a decision, we make it in accord with our greatest desire at the moment. While we may desire to never sin, there are times when the flesh takes over and we sin willfully. At that moment, the will to be sinless was thwarted by the will to never sin. I believe Paul said the same thing, though not explicitly.

3 . The verse in 1 John means the regenerate nature , Christ in us cannot sin. If a Christian does sin it is not his new person/nature that sins but his flesh.

And when this happens, is it done willingly?

Do you think Paul blamed his will or his sin , his will or his "body of death " ?

He blamed his body of death. He realized when he did sin, it was the old man.

Nobody has adequately addressed what I said about David. Did someone or something hold a gun to David's head and make him do something against his will when he pursued Bathsheba? You do believe David was regenerate right?

 

[Arcoe]

The devil and his angels, who will be accompanied by the reprobate. God always intended for unbelievers to go there, for he loved the world in this manner - that he sent his only son so that the ones believing in him would not perish, but have eternal life. Great verse.

So you agree hell wasn't created for man. It was created for one who 'fell' from the grace of God.

How many reprobates have you met? How do you know they are reprobates?

The devil believes, but yet, he doesn't have eternal life. It's more than believing, it's believing and obeying the word. Man can say he believes all day, but if his life mirrors his former self, who stays in his sins and doesn't remove them from his heart, his spoken words will only condemn him.

 

[Hammster]

If the will isn't involved, then we have to say that we don't sin willingly. But if that's the case, how can we say we obey willingly? Why doesn't this sin in me, that has great influence, keep me from obeying?

 

[guuila]

So you agree hell wasn't created for man. It was created for one who 'fell' from the grace of God.

Ok. Whatever. What matters in this discussion is that man is going there, God is sovereign over hell, and God decided that's where unbelievers would go. God will be the one throwing people into hell.

How many reprobates have you met?

Well, since I know most folks go down the broad road of destruction, I'm assuming I've probably met a few.

How do you know they are reprobates?

I don't and never claimed to. You need to ditch your straw men arguments. No Calvinist here claims to know who the elect or reprobate are. The synergists don't either. You'd probably get pretty annoyed if I constantly accused the synergists of claiming to know who the elect are when they make no such claim. Why do you keep doing this?

The devil believes, but yet, he doesn't have eternal life. It's more than believing, it's believing and obeying the word. Man can say he believes all day, but if his life mirrors his former self, who stays in his sins and doesn't remove them from his heart, his spoken words will only condemn him.

Amen.

 

[toLiJC]

Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

According to Calvinism’s view of election, the judgment of Jerusalem would have been the “good pleasure" of the Father (Ephesians 1:9-10). If that were so, why was it so disturbing to Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have been pleased with the Father's will for Jerusalem?

Also, if Jesus was a Calvinist who knew the will of the Father and He really longed for them to be gathered unto Him, wouldn’t the Spirit simply have irresistibly drawn them?

according to the language/terminology of the biblical scripture the "jerusalem" symbolizes/is the human spirituality/religion, Jesus wept for the human religion because it is more or less inclined to follow/keep human ordinances instead of God's Commandments and thus to deviate from the true God

Matthew 15:8-9 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Blessings
​

 

[cygnusx1]

If the will isn't involved, then we have to say that we don't sin willingly. But if that's the case, how can we say we obey willingly? Why doesn't this sin in me, that has great influence, keep me from obeying?

The will is involved in that it is taken captive , a Christian sins by being in an accursed body .... The sin nature isn't eradicated till we are given new bodies , the will inside the believer is God centred , it is pure , a new creation , it is Christ , I yet not I , so the will of a Christian is pure , but is sometimes taken captive by sin .

We obey willingly as did Adam pre fall , he had no ailment such as a sinful body , with its desires , sin in a Christian does have influence sometimes it captivates the will , making us do what we don't will , other times we are guarded and guided so that we sin not , the aim of the Christian is to avoid captivity to sin by mortifying the flesh.

If sin is simply a question of the will then all Christains should be perfect , this was Wesleys and Fletchers mistake.

If the will is free to decide sin then never sin again ..... But we both no it isn't viable.

 

[Hammster]

The will is involved in that it is taken captive , a Christian sins by being in an accursed body .... The sin nature isn't eradicated till we are given new bodies , the will inside the believer is God centred , it is pure , a new creation , it is Christ , I yet not I , so the will of a Christian is pure , but is sometimes taken captive by sin .

We obey willingly as did Adam pre fall , he had no ailment such as a sinful body , with its desires , sin in a Christian does have influence sometimes it captivates the will , making us do what we don't will , other times we are guarded and guided so that we sin not , the aim of the Christian is to avoid captivity to sin by mortifying the flesh.

If sin is simply a question of the will then all Christains should be perfect , this was Wesleys and Fletchers mistake.

If the will is free to decide sin then never sin again ..... But we both no it isn't viable.

Tim Keller gave an interesting illustration once. It concerned slaves in America. During slavery, if a black man was in town, he had to do what whitey told him, even if they weren't his master.

After slavery was abolished, and a black man never had to listen to whitey again, there was still a tendency to do so because of past habits and conditioning.

I think there's a similarity there. Our old natures are still present. Our new natures are also present. I'm not denying the effects of sin I our members. I'm not saying that we can't be deceived, even in ourselves. But I know that there have been times when I've sinned, and done so with great desire. Every time? I can't say because I know there are sins I'm not aware of. But if my sinning was beyond my control, then there would be no need for the father to discipline us.

 

[guuila]

The will is involved in that it is taken captive , a Christian sins by being in an accursed body .... The sin nature isn't eradicated till we are given new bodies , the will inside the believer is God centred , it is pure , a new creation , it is Christ , I yet not I , so the will of a Christian is pure , but is sometimes taken captive by sin .

We obey willingly as did Adam pre fall , he had no ailment such as a sinful body , with its desires , sin in a Christian does have influence sometimes it captivates the will , making us do what we don't will , other times we are guarded and guided so that we sin not , the aim of the Christian is to avoid captivity to sin by mortifying the flesh.

If sin is simply a question of the will then all Christains should be perfect , this was Wesleys and Fletchers mistake.

If the will is free to decide sin then never sin again ..... But we both no it isn't viable.

I think I agree with everything you said. The only difference is, I'm willing to say that when the will is taken captive by sin, the person sins willingly. You've been arguing this whole time that Christians don't sin willingly.

 

[Arcoe]

Ok. Whatever. What matters in this discussion is that man is going there, God is sovereign over hell, and God decided that's where unbelievers would go. God will be the one throwing people into hell.

Well, since I know most folks go down the broad road of destruction, I'm assuming I've probably met a few.

So, if hell was originally created for the devil, did God originally create it for man?

I don't and never claimed to. You need to ditch your straw men arguments. No Calvinist here claims to know who the elect or reprobate are. The synergists don't either. You'd probably get pretty annoyed if I constantly accused the synergists of claiming to know who the elect are when they make no such claim. Why do you keep doing this?

Why do you not know? Doesn't the Bible tell us who will not enter the kingdom? Do you think those who will not enter the kingdom, will enter hell? And, don't Jesus and Paul tell us who will not inherit nor enter the kingdom?

Will the people of whom Paul is speaking in Galatians 6:8 enter the kingdom or hell?

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Since much of this discussion is about the regenerate living in the flesh, do you think they somehow get a pass when sowing to the flesh?

And what do you make of John's statement in 1 John 2:16?

For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Do you think the regenerate who live in the lust of the flesh, are of the Father?

Again, I ask, do the regenerate get a pass if they live in the lust of the flesh?

Why do you think the Bible, over and over, tells us to remove sin from our heart, cast away our transgressions, flee fornication, abstain from fleshly lusts, and lay aside the old man? I'll give you a hint - the answer lies in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:8 (quoted above).

Here is Galatians 5:19-21, so you won't have to look it up.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Amen.

Amen!