Weak argument for God (persuasive)

[BL2KTN]

Okay, I want to believe that Skittle-pooping, rainbow-eating unicorns are dancing on my roof. I also want to believe that goombas are going to carry you away tonight and introduce you to Italian plumbers.

The fact that I keep wanting to believe it means that it is true.

Also, I suspect you are on drugs and/or mentally impaired.

 

[variant]

Also, I suspect you are on drugs and/or mentally impaired.

He has some known mental issues, so don't be too hard on him.

 

[Gottservant]

Okay, I want to believe that Skittle-pooping, rainbow-eating unicorns are dancing on my roof. I also want to believe that goombas are going to carry you away tonight and introduce you to Italian plumbers.

The fact that I keep wanting to believe it means that it is true.

Also, I suspect you are on drugs and/or mentally impaired.

You expect me to believe that when you have no incentive to want to believe it and you think I am on drugs?

 

[Gottservant]

He has some known mental issues, so don't be too hard on him.

I'm not popular yet, so I can't claim to be an authority on how people should be prepared to think.

 

[BL2KTN]

You expect me to believe that when you have no incentive to want to believe it and you think I am on drugs?

It's a freaking unicorn that poops Skittles! Of course I have incentive! I could sell it for like a couple million after I finished eating its [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tles.

 

[variant]

I'm not popular yet, so I can't claim to be an authority on how people should be prepared to think.

Your threads were once ubiquitous, I'm giving the passer by a fair warning as to what to expect.

 

[Gottservant]

It's a freaking unicorn that poops Skittles! Of course I have incentive! I could sell it for like a couple million after I finished eating its [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tles.

You have incentive to say that it matters like you do to say anything matters, selling it is not a function of your possessing it but of someone being prepared to buy it so it is a non-sequitur

in any case, something doesn't have to be tangible to be true, I don't know what gave you that idea

 

[Eudaimonist]

if enough entropy leads to the conservation of energy and I stand there and say "but if I don't believe it, so belief being destroyed is irrelevant" that doesn't mean that when the belief is destroyed I won't suffer

I understand fully how one might suffer by being hit by a boulder due to physical laws, but I don't understand how someone will suffer by dropping a belief in God due to physical laws. Your analogy doesn't really tell me anything. It is leaving the effects of "entropy" or whatever completely mysterious. If I drop a belief in anything other than God, does that hurt me too?

its just a simple fact, eventually you will realize that when you had God, you had something

I realize that it is not a fact.

I used to believe in God, and now I don't, and I haven't suffered because of that. I didn't have something. I had falsehood. I dropped a falsehood when I became an atheist. I haven't noticed any increase of entropy, or any violations of conservation of energy laws, since that time.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gottservant]

You sound desperately like you are trying to be done with it when you are not

I will think about what you said

 

[BL2KTN]

You have incentive to say that it matters like you do to say anything matters, selling it is not a function of your possessing it but of someone being prepared to buy it so it is a non-sequitur

I gotta own it to sell it (especially on eBay, don't even get me started), and the paperwork on Skittle-pooping, rainbow-eating unicorn is beastly.

in any case, something doesn't have to be tangible to be true, I don't know what gave you that idea

Exactly - that's why it's a ghost unicorn. Holy wacka doo doo, now it can go through walls!

 

[theophilus777]

The law of conservation of energy doesn't read like this it states that energy can neither be crated or destroyed.

Energy is free to change form and thus beliefs, a specific form of energy, are free to be changed.

Are beliefs a specific form of energy? Any form of energy at all?

 

[theophilus777]

Suffer how? In what way would someone suffer? Perhaps an example would help.

Because bad spaghetti, I think.

 

[variant]

Are beliefs a specific form of energy? Any form of energy at all?

Not a specific form, they would be a complex bio-electromechanical phenomena.

A disillusion or change of any belief is going to require the change many different energy states so the law of conservation of energy would apply, Its just that the beliefs themselves don't need to be preserved, just the energy that went into them.

Gotts is reading the law of conservation of energy to mean that beliefs can not go away which is quite silly of him.

 

[theophilus777]

Not a specific form, they would be a complex bio-electromechanical phenomena.

Right, but as compared to the brain activity of say, just sitting there? I'm not sure we have any valid comparison yet.

Anyway, this concept of "having beliefs" has approximately 0 to do with what is meant when the Bible says "believe." This is a linguistic problem, more of a failing of Church teaching than of translation.

I get a funny mental image of Homer Simpson tied up to electronic probes, trying really hard to "believe," as he sits perfectly still. (Or maybe shakes a little for dramatic effect)

 

[variant]

Right, but as compared to the brain activity of say, just sitting there? I'm not sure we have any valid comparison yet.

Yes I think the thinking and believing brain is going to be different than if we just sat there as a vegetable all our life.

Anyway, this concept of "having beliefs" has approximately 0 to do with what is meant when the Bible says "believe." This is a linguistic problem, more of a failing of Church teaching than of translation.

Please expand, as I have no idea what you are talking about here.

I get a funny mental image of Homer Simpson tied up to electronic probes, trying really hard to "believe," as he sits perfectly still. (Or maybe shakes a little for dramatic effect)

You don't think beliefs are brain activities?

 

[theophilus777]

You don't think beliefs are brain activities?

I think thoughts are brain activities, and these can be measured. I think that if pictures fitting Dante's Inferno were entered into a brain scan, with the instruction that the scanee is supposed to think about that, we could probably detect the difference. We might even be able to detect the difference between the response of the scanee who believes in that version of hell and the response of someone who doesn't.

would that equate to measuring the energy of beliefs? I don't think it would. That would be measuring brain activity connected to thoughts, which in itself is a very intriguing thing.

The other thing you asked about, the early Church (significant because they got the point) didn't much care about our modern concept of "beliefs." To them, beliefs were demonstrated by action. And you don't need a brain scan to measure those. This didn't change until Constantine felt it politically necessary to codify this servant's religion.

Looking at Jesus' own statements about believing, one very much gets the idea that if it could register on a brain scan, it would be at least similar if not identical to meditation; a blank slate, or approaching it. So I think "beliefs" would be a lack of energy, if we could measure them. This too is consistent with Scripture: we are to labor to enter into rest. Ultimately this is what the Sabbath has always been about.

 

[variant]

I think thoughts are brain activities, and these can be measured. I think that if pictures fitting Dante's Inferno were entered into a brain scan, with the instruction that the scanee is supposed to think about that, we could probably detect the difference. We might even be able to detect the difference between the response of the scanee who believes in that version of hell and the response of someone who doesn't.

would that equate to measuring the energy of beliefs? I don't think it would. That would be measuring brain activity connected to thoughts, which in itself is a very intriguing thing.

The other thing you asked about, the early Church (significant because they got the point) didn't much care about our modern concept of "beliefs." To them, beliefs were demonstrated by action. And you don't need a brain scan to measure those. This didn't change until Constantine felt it politically necessary to codify this servant's religion.

Looking at Jesus' own statements about believing, one very much gets the idea that if it could register on a brain scan, it would be at least similar if not identical to meditation; a blank slate, or approaching it. So I think "beliefs" would be a lack of energy, if we could measure them. This too is consistent with Scripture: we are to labor to enter into rest. Ultimately this is what the Sabbath has always been about.

I don't see a key distinction between actions and thoughts. Actions would just be simpler to perceive which, doesn't mean much.

For the purposes of our discussion here both are bodily functions that require energy.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't see how beliefs are not thoughts.

I believe that X is true.
I think that X is true.

These seem equivalent to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark