We Need to Talk to Converts About Spiritual Attack...

[thereselittleflower]

Im just wondering if Bene is talking about the sins being forgiven (as in: that person being forgiven, who might be in hell) - OR, about the sins being repared for... so God's justice is satisfied (for example, by offering Mass for the intention). Much like how we can offer reparation for someone's sin. Let's say a person desecrates the Eucharist.. and we offer a novena of Communions to offer reparation for that. The person's forgiveness depends on their own repentance. But the ACT, the actual event of desecration, is repared for, through the Cross.

Monica the issue is this. This book "Healing Your Family Tree" has been strongly recommended several times in this thread.

It is what the AUTHOR teaches that I am dealing with . . .it doesn't matter what bene understands him to teach or not teach.

It matters what the author actually teaches.

The author teaches us to pray for

our ancestors to be forgiven their sins. .
our ancestors to be freed from bondage
our ancestors to be healed
​

This stands in direct opposition to the Church's teaching.

Just because someone is ignoring this, putting their own spin on the teachings of the author to make them appear more reasonable, that does not change the error in what is actually being taught.

 

[thereselittleflower]

why if practicing satanism has no far reaching effects on ppl?

I never said that bene .. . I don't think you are reading what I have actually said on the matter. . but only what you want to see.

 

[thereselittleflower]

No. Its not them we are forgiving but asking for God to forgive the act itself. Okay, this post is going to be long so I ask you to put up with me.

The act is the sin.

To ask God to forgive the act is to ask God to forgive the sin.

And in fact, God does not forgive acts. . He forgives people.

Forgiveness is about forgiving people. . not disimbodied acts.

If that person is dead there can be no forgiveness of their sins, of their actions if it was not granted in life.


This is where the tire meets the road bene. . . . . one can spin doctor it all they want, but they cannot change this simple fact.

To teach that God forgives the sins of our ancestors after death is heresy.

and you are saying that I am defending this, no I'm not. I'm just presenting it for consideration.

what I am defending is you to not misrepresent the premise. If you are going to object to it, fine but object to what the premise actually is.

I have not misrespresnted the premise. I have gotten the premise straight from the author.

I have presented the prayer the author gives us to pray.

I have demonstrated where he clearly would have us pray for what the Church tells us we are not to believe.

No one said we forgive the family member. This is like the 3rd time I'm making this clear.

I am not saying you said this.

I am saying THIS is our responsiblity D'Ann has said this is our reponsiblity. . . THIS is what we are to do . . not pray that God forgives our ancestors their sin as this author would have us do.

We are to forgive others as we are forgiven. That of course does not mean that we forgive in God's stead, but that we free ourselves of unforgiveness in our own hearts. When we hold unforgiveness in our hearts, we give satan a foothold. So we must forgive others.

We ask God that the sin, the act, the event in time that gave the enemy power, to be forgiven, have mercy on, removed, what ever words you want to use, to "break the curse", what ever words you want to use. We ask God to allow us to take back the ground that was given to him.

There is NO basis for doing this in Catholic teaching. NONE.

Forgiveness is given to people bene .. people .. . PEOPLE are forgiven their sinful acts. . . acts are not forgiven apart from forgiving the people who did them.

as you say, no one has power but God in this. It's He who says if Satan will attack or if he won't and how far he can go.

that is what we would do, ask to God to take back the ground that was freely given to Satan that God allowed Satan to take. When we give Satan ground in our lives, the effects are far reaching.

That DOES NOT include praying that God will do something CONTRARY TO HIS DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH.

It is contrary to His divinely revealed truth to pray that our ancestors be forgiven their sins.

That is where the tire meets the road for this strange doctrine.

This strange doctrine teaches us to do something CONTRARY TO Divinely Revealed Truth

Nothing about this is forgiving anyone sins or forgiving any dead person of their sins.

Maybe to you bene .. but not to the author.

The author clearly would have us pray for God to forgive our ancestors their sins.

The words of the prayer are unambiguous. If you wish to spin them to somthing else, that is your choice. But when someone spins a false teaching to make it palatabl, it will only mislead others as to what this author teaches. His words are clearly and unambiguously stated.


I don't see a need to respond to everything in your post as you have mixed the teaching of this author with other issues. I am simply focusing on this book and teaching you have recommended to others several times in this thread.


You are misrepresenting the teaching of this author .. .

 

[CruciFixed]

You can't pray for their sins but you can pray for them in case they are in purgatory, right?

 

[thereselittleflower]

You can't pray for their sins but you can pray for them in case they are in purgatory, right?

Those in purgatory are already forgiven their sins. They are already saved. Purtagory continues their process of purification.

Forgiveness of sins is extended to us by God's grace only in this life.

After death there remains no more remission of sins.


We are to pray for those in pugatory.

Praying for those in purgatory has nothing to do with the possible effects of their actions on our lives. Prayers for those in purgatory are to be totally self giving, not self seeking in any way. They are for the good of those in purgatory not our own good.

 

[plmarquette]

Go back to the parable of the sower....one seed (your faith in God's word) and the soil is your heart.....

it depends on the roots (depth) of your faith, storms build strength (1 Peter 1.1-7)...many fail / falll for were Chrisitans in name only...no roots...

we miss and fall short..."relationships" ... "church family" ... if new people are befriended, mentored, and held accountable by a "barnabus" will stay and grow...guess what church people...that means you .... adopt a baby christian, and help him / her grow

 

[thereselittleflower]

Go back to the parable of the sower....one seed (your faith in God's word) and the soil is your heart.....

it depends on the roots (depth) of your faith, storms build strength (1 Peter 1.1-7)...many fail / falll for were Chrisitans in name only...no roots...

we miss and fall short..."relationships" ... "church family" ... if new people are befriended, mentored, and held accountable by a "barnabus" will stay and grow...guess what church people...that means you .... adopt a baby christian, and help him / her grow

This is a different topic altogether than what this thread is about.

And the parable you speak of. . I suggest you look again . . They had saving faith . .they were more than just believers in name only. Look into the original greek.

 

[CruciFixed]

Back to the OP thread title...

I do think converts need to be aware of spiritual attacks. That's that kind of thing that can lead someone away.

 

[WarriorAngel]

She is concerned and about heresy and I certainty appreciate her concern.

As I said earlier, this is NOT TEACHING and I am not trying to pass it off as if it is. Its speculation that I, for years was cautious off.

This book was written in 1986 and revised in 1989. I read it in 2002 and I formed no opinion and now I have read only a third of it again and I can not find any error.

I know some ppl disbelieve in generational sin and I have no problem with them not believing it- they are free to.

But the point of contention is, is this heresy condemn by the Church?

I don't know that it is... and what Theresa is presenting me isn't evidence that it is. Its more opinions of ppl disagreeing with it and calling it heresy.

If there is real evidence by the Church that this is? I really want to know and I have BEEN trying to find it myself for years.

So please, everyone reading- take all that I say with a grain of salt. I'm not claiming this is official, infallible or anything.

I'm just saying that all sin is destructive in our lives and no sin effects just the person and no one else.

That is just my main point I wish to get across to folks. What I got out of this is to know what horror sin really is. Its not some thing that has no real or serious consequences.

We can try to short cut ourselves to the path of righteousness all we want- but the only real way we can live as happy and problem free as a person as we can is to follow the straight and narrow path and that is hard, not easy.

Just an aside... the question was popped to Christ.

John 9;
[1] And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: [2] And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? [3] Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Our parents sins are not our sins...and so forth.

IF you are referring to the sin of 'cursing' someone... well a curse can be broken by God.
He is the MORE Powerful.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Just an aside... the question was popped to Christ.

John 9;
[1] And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: [2] And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? [3] Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Our parents sins are not our sins...and so forth.

IF you are referring to the sin of 'cursing' someone... well a curse can be broken by God.
He is the MORE Powerful.

I can't stress enough how the verse above, alone, absolutely contradicts the entirety of the false teaching "Healing Your Family Tree."

 

[benedictaoo]

I never said that bene .. . I don't think you are reading what I have actually said on the matter. . but only what you want to see.

NO, TLF, I think you aren't reading what I say and are seeing what you only want to see.

 

[benedictaoo]

do you mean like reparation?

if that's the case, maybe there's some disagreement in this thread because we're all talking about 2 different things (forgiveness of sin vs reparation for the sin and the effects of it)

Not talking about forgiving anyone's personal sins that they committed.

I'm talking about taking back the ground Satan has claimed through a long line of sin in a person's family.

That's all.

 

[benedictaoo]

I already have bene . .multiple times. . . .for some reason you are either not seeing it or refusing to acknowlege it.


We CANNOT pray for the sins of our ancestors to be forgiven. Period.

Upon their death, forgiveness has already been sought and given, or not sought and they die apart from God with no forgiveness possible.

The prayer I presented is by the author of the same book you are presenting. It is what he recommends be prayed. I have broken it apart for you in several ways.

I have presented the teachings from the Catechism.

IF you believe that we can justly pray for the sins of our ancestors to be forgiven, for our ancestors to be freed from bondage, for our ancestors to be healed, even though the Catholic Church teaches us we cannot for their state with God is sealed at death, then I have no idea what can be said to you at this point.

Oh my goodness... #4th time... I never said we are forgiving anyone's sin. I said we are taking back the ground that was freely given to the enemy that has effected the entire family.

We are removing the person sin's effects, not forgiving them of the sins or asking for God to forgive them personally, although you can be bitter if you realize a persons sins has caused you to suffer, like in Crystal's case and you would then have to forgive them or the anger will just be fed off of from the demons.

 

[benedictaoo]

You can't pray for their sins but you can pray for them in case they are in purgatory, right?

I think we need to understand that we are in no way shape or form talking about removing, forgiving, the personal guilt a person has for committing the sin and giving themselves to the devil.

We are talking about removing the effects of the sin because our sins effect other people and those effects can last generations.

 

[WarriorAngel]

SO - as i asked are you talking about the ones who cursed the family?
As in if the curse lasting?

That can be remedied. Prayer that if any curse were to exist that the Lord remove it and that St Michael defend the family.

Evil only has as much power as is allowed and it is not allowed if God is sought.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I think we need to understand that we are in no way shape or form talking about removing, forgiving, the personal guilt a person has for committing the sin and giving themselves to the devil.

We are talking about removing the effects of the sin because our sins effect other people and those effects can last generations.

Mortal sins have devastating effects indeed, it can mess with ppl's lives.
Like murder can cause a sudden and unplanned death not of God's making, and so the sin is the fact someone usurped the power of God to decree when someone dies.

Though it is a mortal sin, it can be forgiven. The soul does purgatory for the effects it causes on the families and the hurt and pain that is contradictory to God's laws of charity and love.

PLUS killing someone who may not have time for forgiveness condemns them to hell... and the purgation must be met for that cause alone.
Tho i am sure even the greatest sinner can still avoid hell...byh God's mercy...such as St Paul who lived a life of penances.

NOW - for curses and all that evil stuff,,,it probably becomes psychosomatic to believe it can still affect the next generations.
If one never knew of the supposed curses and et al - they would be blissfully ignorant.
Knowing it exists causes the person to allow it to effect them...sometimes even using it as an excuse for every drama in their life.

God does not allow the innocent to be effected who were not involved.

We, ourselves allow it to effect us because we 'became aware of it.'

I am sure some curses such as the Hope Diamond and what not could be true - but without great heroic faith - it will allow evil to overcome.

Saints had no fear and they were not touched. Prayer is the one thing that is so powerful that it is the one tool of Saints that lead them to such great graces.

SO relax Bene, and trust in Jesus.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Not talking about forgiving anyone's personal sins that they committed.

I'm talking about taking back the ground Satan has claimed through a long line of sin in a person's family.

That's all.

You don't do that by praying:

"I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors "
​

That is a direct quote from the prayer authored by the same author of the book you have been promoting in this thread "Heal Your Family Tree."

It is his teaching put into action.

This is in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Catholic Church -
CCC:

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596


​

There is no opportunity for God to forgive our ancestors their sins.

There is no possibilty of forgivenss for one who has died outside the friendship of God. There is no need for forgivenss for those who have died in the friendship of God.


The prayer by this author also asks for this:

I ask you, Father, to deliver me and my entire family tree

Free all living and dead membersof my family tree .... from every contaminating form of bondage

extend your blessing to me and to all my living and deceased relatives

I ask you to let the cleansing blood of Jesus purify the bloodlines in my family lineage. ....... administer your divine healing power to all of us

​

In response to the errors encapsulated in such prayer:

• There is no possiblity of deliverance for those who have died outside of God's friendship. There is no need for deliverance for those who have died in God's friendship.

• There is no possiblity of being freed from every contaminating form of bondage for thsoe who have died outside of God's friendship. There is no need for being freed from bonage for those who have died in God's friendship.

• There is no possiblity of God extending His blessigns to thos who have died outside of God's friendship. There is no need for extending God's blessings to those who have died in God's friendship.

• The blood of Jesus does not "purtify" bloodlines - such an idea even hints at the idea of a superrace. The blood of Jesus cleanses each person who receives this gift of God.

• There is no possiblity of Jesus' blood cleansing or purifying anyone who has died outside the friendship of God. There is no need for the cleansing power of Jesus' blood for one who has died in the friendship of God.

• There is no possibilty of healing for one who has died outside the friendship of God. There is no need for healing for those who have died in the friendship of God.

Why do you promote the teaching of the author of "Healing Your Family Tree" which teaches its readers to believe and do things the Church tells us cannot be done and cannot be believed?



I posted the prayer here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7548082-11/#post57449705

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think we need to understand that we are in no way shape or form talking about removing, forgiving, the personal guilt a person has for committing the sin and giving themselves to the devil.

We are talking about removing the effects of the sin because our sins effect other people and those effects can last generations.

Then why do you promote the error ridden teachings of the author of "Healing Your Family Tree" who does teach us to pray for:

God to forgive our ancestors their sins.

God to heal our dead family members

God to free our dead family members of every contaminating bondage

God to bless our dead family members
​

?


Why are you promoting someone's error ridden teaching which focuses on our ancestors rather than the delivering, liberating, lifegiving, healing power of the sacraments on the believer?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Maybe we need to focus on what has TRULY been given us to believe through Divinely Revealed Truth:

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.



1 Timothy 1:1-20

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
​

 

[CruciFixed]

This thread has been interesting. I think I am getting confused so I am going to unsubscribe.