We Need to Talk to Converts About Spiritual Attack...

[benedictaoo]

Speaking for myself. I'm not glorify Satan. I'm trying to warn others so they don't get blind-sided like I did. If someone had told me at age 5 that Satan existed and how to pray to protect myself, I don't think I would of been such an easy target. But, no-one told me anything, so I was easy pickings for Satan and his demons (for attack). My babysitter told me there was nothing wrong with astrology and "charting your stars." In fact, she encouraged it. And, since I didn't know any better, I followed her lead.
I remember about a year ago when I read a board (can't remember which one) where people told their experiences with the Ouija board. All the experiences were horrible and all I could think was "I wish something like this had been around when I was a teenager. I wouldn't of been in the same room with one of those things!"
I'm going to continue to speak out against the occult now that I know how to deal with it--through prayer, mass attendance, and bible reading.
That's just my 2 cents.
C J

I know. We don't want to give attention to the enemy and that has also crossed my mind as well... but we have to educate ppl as well because its innocence and stupidity is why ppl fall into his traps mostly, some do it intentional.

It kinda proves my point how he operates, he attacks and looks for any way in and a preoccupation can set one up for an attack as well.

You can be the biggest walking talking Catholic walking the earth, if you have never come into contact with something like this, you won't believe it and you'll blow it off.

 

[benedictaoo]

I had to pause for a moment . . .

"It's really just a matter of semantics"
​

. . . . . is that all it is, really? Are issues of "semantics" really innocuous, something to simply be dismissed by the wave of a hand as if they are trivial?

ALL HERESY is a "matter of semantics" - why has the Church has taken such great pains to precisely define Her terms and beliefs at so many junctures? Look at the Arian heresy and the resulting troubles the Church faced, the entire empire faced as a result of what could easily be called the "semantics" of Arius - all over the word "begotten" - what does that word mean?

Why did the Church take such great pains to draft the words of the Nicene Creed? Why did a small change in word here or there become so darned important?

They became so important for one simple reason: these issues, which some claim, as did Emperor Constantine, are "just a matter of semantics", are in reality issues of ideas . . and how such "semantics" can present to one ideas that end up warping one's understanding of truth, and lead one into heresy as they did Arius and most of Eastern Christiandom and some of Western Chrsitiandom, in the process.

Ideas have power, and their power often comes from the use of "semantics" to try to make two expressions appear equivilant when they are not equvilant at all.

You cannot heal your ancestors.

There is nothing in Catholic teaching which even remotely supports such a notion.

You can only help relieve their suffering in purgatory, help with the final cleansing of their soul on its journey to heaven.

THAT'S ALL the Church teaches us about what we can do to help our ancestors.


That is the limit of Divine Revelation given to us, the limit of the Deposit of Faith given us, by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and that Divine Revelation is CLOSED - NOTHING NEW may be added to it.


This teaching of "healing" one's family tree, adds ideas to the Deposit of Faith something never taught by the Apostles.


Is it really just a matter of semantics?

The first deception resulting in the fall of man in the Garden of Eden was easily perpetrated by the simple use of "semantics" by the serpent, by the devil himself.

Theresa, are you going to keep doing this?

I never said we are healing the ancestors, (??) not once, I said the opposite.

We are NOT and I specifically made a point to say this, we are NOT talking about saving any past family member. If they are in hell- then they are.

This is not about saving them. It's about taking back any ground Satan my think he has a claim to because of their sin and as you know in Job, he went to God requesting he may tempt Job.

If a family member is his, he can certainly go after the descendants and God may certainly allow him to.

I never said ANY OF THIS has to do with a person's salvation but the EFFECTS- NOT THE GUILT but the effects of sin in our life and how it far reaches to other family members and even non family members, like friends and co workers etc.

I can only conclude you are not paying attention.

Why don't you tell us how it works? You tell me how Satan attacks and the different ways he can attack us? You tell me what happens to a whole family when the mother or father openly and willfully practices occultism.

Why don't you tell me what is it that we can do for family members who are wayward?

 

[benedictaoo]

I don't know anything about healing the spiritual tree but I do believe that demons can attack people because of things that happened in their families. There's something that happened in my family that I've never really discussed with anyone I know. It's something really awful and tragic actually. Eventually I couldn't keep it in anymore so I decided to talk to my priest, cause I was constantly thinking about it, and worrying.. I made an appointment with him to talk about something else, but the subject of my family came up and he asked me to tell him more about that. So - I saw that kind of like a sign that I should tell him. It took me a while.. I was really nervous. Eventually I said it though - I don't know why but it takes a lot of out of me to talk about this, I'm not even able to say it here now - and I was finally able to discuss it with the priest. At the end, he gave me a special blessing and prayed over me. I never let people pray over me except priests and this was my confessor from the FSSP parish so I felt a lot of peace about that. And the prayer he said, it was all about spiritual protection agains the demons and spirits that were related to what happened in my family.. and also the ways in which I've been attacked in the past. Well the interesting thing is that after that blessing, I felt SO free, like something actually lifted off me.. there was a lot of peace. But I think my family gets attacked a lot, because horrible things are always happening and my parents are always fighting etc. and often it's something against religion which makes me even more worried.

Its rarely one blessing and its over. It can be depending on God if its His will but usually, its takes perseverance. Keep praying for them and keep offering the Mass for them.

Here is where I'm finding the devotions particularly useful. To offer them, the prayers, for the family.

 

[benedictaoo]

I remember one time, - I wasn't there but my friends tried "summoning" a spirit.. does that actually work and a demon comes? what happens to the demon afterwards, does it stay in the place or leave? I'm just wondering if anyone knows... of course "summoning spirits" is always wrong and dangerous.

It can. if you don't see them materially present itself, they can certainly present themselves invisibly. anytime there is disobedience to God, the devils flock.

People need to know that its us and our sins that draw them. they do not create a bad situation, we choose it but they can surly make it worse once there is a bad situation.

Summons demons is the most stupidest thing a person can do to themselves.

I read in a devotional book one day that Mary said to arm yourself with her rosary and place blessed objects in your home because they will send many devils to flight.

I heard summoning spirits/demons could lead to infestation, obsession, or possession right?

It can lead to anything. But God is the sovereign one, not him.

Nothing happens that God does not allow. The dumb things we do, we can see how bad it could be if it weren't for God's goodness.

Being harassed is one thing- you do ask for the harassment by doing something incredibly dumb like that... but possession is something else.

You have free will and the devil can't do anything to you with your consent but these things weaken our resolve and our will. so we need to be careful.

have you ever sen the icon of OLPH? Jesus' sandle falling off his foot symbolizes that we all should run far far away from sin because it seeks our life. He ran to Mary is haste and that's what we need to do.

 

[benedictaoo]

Guys, let's not glorify satan . . he loves it when we dwell on his deeds or supposed deeds.

I understand that better than anyone and it pains me to talk about it but we have to educate ppl because that's how the enemy works, in the dark, in the shadows and he doesn't care, he will take advantage of innocence and ignorance.

If ppl don't know, they will continue to do the dumb things they do that keep them spinning in circles, casing their tails as far as their own personal holiness is concerned.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Theresa, are you going to keep doing this?

I never said we are healing the ancestors, (??) not once, I said the opposite.

We are NOT and I specifically made a point to say this, we are NOT talking about saving any past family member. If they are in hell- then they are.

This is not about saving them.

I never said it was.

HOWEVER, despite your protestantios to the contrary, this "Healing your family tree" teaching does INDEED teach the healing of one's ancestors (and much, much more):

"To arrange to have a Mass or Masses celebrated for the intention of your personal family tree, or for the healing of any possible bondages afflicting the body, mind or spirit of any family members, living or dead . . "


Information about private Mass intentions
for the Healing of YOUR Family Tree

Claretian Tape Ministry
​

I am not making this stuff up Bene. . . this is what is being promoted in this so called "Healing your family tree" business.

More:

Find out more about this exciting Scripture-based approach to healing that has been recently "rediscovered" to deal with "generational bondage" resulting from "the sins of the parents being visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation
​

BIG HUGE RED FLAG - "recently been 'rediscovered' . .

Again, there is NOTHING in all of Catholic history and teaching which ever suggests such a thing, .. . . and IF this "teaching" has been waiting to be "rediscovered" then this can only mean that the Church has FAILED in keeping FULNESS of TRUTH - the ALL Truth promised Jesus to the Apostles and delivered by teh Apostles to the Church.

This "rediscovered" claim is the same as made by any heretical teaching or movemnt.

NOTHING has been waiting to be "rediscovered" . .the Church has not lost any of Truth or misplaced it or hid it.

Let's look further at a prayer for 'healing your family tree':

Heavenly Father, I come before you as your child, in great need of your help; I have physical health needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs, and interpersonal needs. Many of my problems have been caused by my own failures, neglect and sinfulness, for which I humbly beg your forgiveness, Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit. Heal me, Lord, of all these disorders.

With your help I sincerely forgive everyone, especially living or dead members of my family tree, who have directly offended me or my loved ones in any way, or those whose sins have resulted in our present sufferings and disorders. In the name of your divine Son, Jesus, and in the power of his Holy Spirit, I ask you, Father, to deliver me and my entire family tree from the influence of the evil one. Free allliving and dead members of my family tree, including those in adoptive relationships, and those in extended family relationships, from every contaminating form of bondage. By your loving concern for us, heavenly Father, and by the shed blood of your precious Son, Jesus, I beg you to extend your blessing to me and to all my living and deceased relatives. Heal every negative effect transmitted through all past generations, and prevent such negative effects in future generations of my family tree.

I symbolically place the cross of Jesus over the head of each person in my family tree, and between each generation; I ask you to let the cleansing blood of Jesus purify the bloodlines in my family lineage. Set your protective angels to encamp around us, and permit Archangel Raphael, the patron of healing, to administer your divine healing power to all of us, even in areas of genetic disability. Give special power to our family members' guardian angels to heal, protect, guide and encourage each of us in all our needs. Let your healing power be released at this very moment, and let it continue as long as your sovereignty permits.

In our family tree, Lord, replace all bondage with a holy bonding in family love. And let there be an ever-deeper bonding with you, Lord, by the Holy Spirit, to your Son, Jesus. Let the family of the Holy Trinity pervade our family with its tender, warm, loving presence, so that our family may recognize and manifest that love in all our relationships. All of our unknown needs we include with this petition that we pray in Jesus' precious Name. Amen.
​

Such a prayer flies in the face of ALL Catholic teaching on the state of the dead.

Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors
​

Ones eternal disposition is set at the moment of death.

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
​

There is no place in Catholic teaching that remotely allows one to pray for the sinis of one's ancestors to be forgiven.

No prayers can be said in which one asks God to forgive someone deceased of sins they commited in life. You claim that thsi is not about salvation of the dead. . .. but yet this "teaching" teaches people to pray for God to forgive the dead of their sins - IN ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION to the INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church.

whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit.
​

This also flies in the face of all teaching of the Church . . our unwanted tendencies are the result of the fall of man . .of ORIGINAL SIN .. not the failures of our ancestors . . . they are the result of malformed consciences, the effects of the fallen human nature which may remain with us after baptism. Jesus addressed the issue of defects when the disciples asked him who had sinned, the man or his parents (family tree) that he suffered such a serious defect of body.

JESUS SAID NO ONE.


This is the false nature of this teaching. There is no true defense for it.

The Church has not lost anything needed to be rediscovered.






One cannot pray for

• the sins of their ancestors to be forgiven,
• their ancestors to be healed,
• their ancestors bloodlines to be purified
• for our ancestors to be blessed
• their ancestors to be delivered from satan, from bondage etc.

Yet this is exactly what this teaching "healing your family tree" teaches one to do.

This is a FALSE teaching.

It's about taking back any ground Satan my think he has a claim to because of their sin and as you know in Job, he went to God requesting he may tempt Job.

If a family member is his, he can certainly go after the descendants and God may certainly allow him to.

I never said ANY OF THIS has to do with a person's salvation but the EFFECTS- NOT THE GUILT but the effects of sin in our life and how it far reaches to other family members and even non family members, like friends and co workers etc.

One's submission to the Church, to the Sacraments, to the Cross of Jesus breaks the power of satan over them. One has to look no further than what Christ has given us through the Church. This has been the way God has provided us for 2000 years. No innovation is needed to improve on the power of the Sacraments or anything given to us through the Church to help us.

Satan makes claim, or tries to. But that doesn't mean the way to deal with it is in focusing on the family tree.

The Sacraments do not need to know where something originated to be efficacious in delivering the believer. The priest does not need to know where something originated from in order to break its power over someone.

The focus on our ancestors instead of on us in the present, is a false idea and promotes false understanding of the power of God to deliver. We don't need to know any of this to be freed by God from any power of satan.

I can only conclude you are not paying attention.

I think if you re-read what I said again, you will see you are mistaken in how you understood my words.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Its rarely one blessing and its over. It can be depending on God if its His will but usually, its takes perseverance. Keep praying for them and keep offering the Mass for them.

Here is where I'm finding the devotions particularly useful. To offer them, the prayers, for the family.

Bene, how would you know if it is rarely one blessing and its over?

Where do you get your information from as to how God works in such a manner?

I don't think you can possibly know that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Bene, give out the St Benedict medal to everyone to have in their house - over their doors??
Even if not practicing, Catholics still put those things up.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I know. We don't want to give attention to the enemy and that has also crossed my mind as well... but we have to educate ppl as well because its innocence and stupidity is why ppl fall into his traps mostly, some do it intentional.

It kinda proves my point how he operates, he attacks and looks for any way in and a preoccupation can set one up for an attack as well.

You can be the biggest walking talking Catholic walking the earth, if you have never come into contact with something like this, you won't believe it and you'll blow it off.

Exactly. That's how Satan works. He hopes no-one will talk about this so he can do his thing and no-one will know what it is or how to deal with it. I was going to Mass 3x a week, praying and reading the bible daily and it still happened to me. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. (And it probably got worse with me cuz I was growing in the Lord and Satan wanted to scare me off.) I don't see how anyone is glorify Satan when we're describing how horrible he is. To me, glorify means making something appear good. And my experience with Satan was not good in any way. There are a lot of lurkers here (I used to be one) who don't know much about the bible or going to church, yet need help. I want to be there for them as well as the people in this forum.

well crystal, its all "Satan worshiping" just not known or directly or intentionally. Occultism, paganism, etc. Its all the same but the ppl don't know it.

Yes, that's true. If you're not for God, you're against Him in one way or the other. I was just thinking of some other "Satan Worshipers" that I had heard of. They say they are their own god. (And there is no god.) They like the philosophy of Satan in the garden of Eden where he told Eve she could be "like God". They say they appreciate Satan's role as "adversary"--where you question everything.

 

[D'Ann]

I never said it was.

HOWEVER, despite your protestantios to the contrary, this "Healing your family tree" teachigni does INDEED teach the healing of one's ancestors:

"To arrange to have a Mass or Masses celebrated for the intention of your personal family tree, or for the healing of any possible bondages afflicting the body, mind or spirit of any family members, living or dead . . "


Information about private Mass intentions
for the Healing of YOUR Family Tree

Claretian Tape Ministry
​

I am not making this stuff up Bene. . . this is what is being promoted in thsi so called "Healing your family tree" business.

More:

Find out more about this exciting Scripture-based approach to healing that has been recently "rediscovered" to deal with "generational bondage" resulting from "the sins of the parents being visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation
​

BIG HUGE RED FLAG - "recently been 'rediscovered' . .

Again, there is NOTHING in all of Catholic history and teaching which ever suggests suc a thing, .. . . and IF this "teaching" has been waiting to be "rediscovered" then this can only mean that the Church has FAILED in keeping FULNESS of TRUTH - the ALL Truth promised Jesus to the Apostles and delivered by teh Apostles to the Church.

This "rediscovered" claim is the same as made by any heretical teaching or movemnt.

NOTHING has been waiting to be "rediscovered" . .the Church has not lost any of Truth or misplaced it or hid it.

A prayer for healing your family tree:

Heavenly Father, I come before you as your child, in great need of your help; I have physical health needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs, and interpersonal needs. Many of my problems have been caused by my own failures, neglect and sinfulness, for which I humbly beg your forgiveness, Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit. Heal me, Lord, of all these disorders.

With your help I sincerely forgive everyone, especially living or dead members of my family tree, who have directly offended me or my loved ones in any way, or those whose sins have resulted in our present sufferings and disorders. In the name of your divine Son, Jesus, and in the power of his Holy Spirit, I ask you, Father, to deliver me and my entire family tree from the influence of the evil one. Free allliving and dead members of my family tree, including those in adoptive relationships, and those in extended family relationships, from every contaminating form of bondage. By your loving concern for us, heavenly Father, and by the shed blood of your precious Son, Jesus, I beg you to extend your blessing to me and to all my living and deceased relatives. Heal every negative effect transmitted through all past generations, and prevent such negative effects in future generations of my family tree.

I symbolically place the cross of Jesus over the head of each person in my family tree, and between each generation; I ask you to let the cleansing blood of Jesus purify the bloodlines in my family lineage. Set your protective angels to encamp around us, and permit Archangel Raphael, the patron of healing, to administer your divine healing power to all of us, even in areas of genetic disability. Give special power to our family members' guardian angels to heal, protect, guide and encourage each of us in all our needs. Let your healing power be released at this very moment, and let it continue as long as your sovereignty permits.

In our family tree, Lord, replace all bondage with a holy bonding in family love. And let there be an ever-deeper bonding with you, Lord, by the Holy Spirit, to your Son, Jesus. Let the family of the Holy Trinity pervade our family with its tender, warm, loving presence, so that our family may recognize and manifest that love in all our relationships. All of our unknown needs we include with this petition that we pray in Jesus' precious Name. Amen.
​

Such a prayer flies in the face of ALL Catholic teaching on the state of the dead.

Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors
​

Ones eternal disposition is set at the moment of death. No prayers can be said in which one asks God to forgive someone deceased of sins they commited in life. You claim that thsi is not about salvation of the dead. . .. but yet this "teaching" teaches people to pray for God to forgive the dead of their sins - IN ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION to the INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church.

whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit.
​

This also flies in the face of all teaching of the Church . . our unwanted tendencies are the result of the fall of man . .of ORIGINAL SIN .. not the failures of our ancestors . . . they are the result of malformed consciences, the effects of the fallen human nature which may remain with us after baptism. Jesus addressed the issue of defects when the disciples asked him who had sinned, the man or his parents (family tree) that he suffered such a serious defect of body.

JESUS SAID NO ONE.


This is the false nature of this teaching. There is no true defense for it.

The Church has not lost anything needed to be rediscovered.

One cannot pray for

• the sins of their ancestors to be forgiven,
• their ancestors to be healed,
• their ancestors to be delivered from bondage etc.

Yet this is exactly what this teaching "healing your family tree" teaches one to do.

This is a FALSE teaching.






One's submission to the Church, to the Sacraments, to the Cross of Jesus breaks the power of satan over them. One has to look no further than what Christ has given us through the Church. This has been the way God has provided us for 2000 years. No innovation is needed to improve on the power of the Sacraments or anything given to us through the Church to help us.

Satan makes claim, or tries to. But that doesn't mean the way to deal with it is in focusing on the family tree.

The Sacraments do not need to know where something originated to be efficacious in delivering the believer. The priest does not need to know where something originated from in order to break its power over someone.

The focus on our ancestors instead of on us in the present, is a false idea and promotes false understanding of the power of God to deliver. We don't need to know any of this to be freed by God from any power of satan.



I think if you re-read what I said again, you will see you are mistaken in how you understood my words.

Hi Theresa,

Benedicta isn't disagreeing with you. She is stating from her own knowledge and possible experiences... that she may know of... her opinion based on what we all believe as well as you... is the same thing. Benedicta is not stating anything... that should cause you any need to constantly correct her in this thread.

We all express our knowledge and experience in different ways... with different terminology... that is what makes each of us a contributor to each other as Catholics. Why do we always have to shoot down each other.

I like your posts... they are educational... and I enjoy it when you share your experiences very much. I also like reading what Benedicta writes and Davidnic writes and many others...

Maybe, instead of feeling the need to critique each other (and I need to practice this myself)... perhaps, we can, you know... fellowship without the need to teach someone that already knows what is what in some of these particular areas.

It's just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

God's peace,

Debbie

 

[CruciFixed]

I gotta say I believe Bene when she says its not one blessing and its over because priests who perform exorcism say movies like the Exorcist make it look too easy. The boy the movie was about had to go through several exorcisms before he was free of the demons. And A lot of exorcists will say that they have to perform exorcisms on the same person for years and years. And I can't remember where I read it but I read it takes a lot of prayers to free a soul from purgatory. There's a lot of evidence to her claim. Do we know EXACTLY how God works? No. We don't know how God works on the individual or what God plans for each soul. I do know we can tell from writings, saints words and works, Scripture and other texts that it is not always the case of "one and done" God is more powerful than Satan but how much does God allow Satan? For instance, look at Job. He prayed and had much faith until the very end but he did and he gave it all to God and it was not just one and done.

ETA: I also understand that God may allow it to go on a long time to bring the person out of it better. God knows the heart and knows what we can handle and sometimes he won't immediately free a person because that individual may need to reap what they have sown. The boy the movie The Exorcist was about had played with Ouija boards with his aunt and his aunt was into witchcraft and astrology and things of that nature. When she died the house the family lived in became haunted. Anyway after seeking out their own Episcopal (I think they were) minister that guy could not handle it and HE SUGGESTED they go to a Catholic priest. Anyway these many torments led to the family's conversion to the Holy Catholic Church. The whole family converted. I don't know if they lived in their faith for many years or not. All I know is God does allow Satan things and if it proves that he can drag us down with him then its to his benefit.

And I read that nothing Satan does is for joy because he does not experience joy so much the way we understand it. Satan does things such as attacking and gets the same feeling we get from plotting and acting out revenge. Its all from hate not love and not happiness.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Theresa,

Benedicta isn't disagreeing with you. She is stating from her own knowledge and possible experiences... that she may know of... her opinion based on what we all believe as well as you... is the same thing. Benedicta is not stating anything... that should cause you any need to constantly correct her in this thread.

We all express our knowledge and experience in different ways... with different terminology... that is what makes each of us a contributor to each other as Catholics. Why do we always have to shoot down each other.

I like your posts... they are educational... and I enjoy it when you share your experiences very much. I also like reading what Benedicta writes and Davidnic writes and many others...

Maybe, instead of feeling the need to critique each other (and I need to practice this myself)... perhaps, we can, you know... fellowship without the need to teach someone that already knows what is what in some of these particular areas.

It's just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

God's peace,

Debbie

I am not critiquing bene as much as I am critiquing the promotion of a false teaching - bene happens to be defending it - first introducing it here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548082-2/#post57408124

It is one thing to say that how we are raised is influenced by how our parents were raised, and so forth, and how that affects our behavior, etc. It is also one thing to say that the acts of our ancestors can give satan a hold over the lives of their descendents.

But it is quite another to promote a false teaching as a way to deal with such things.

What is being promoted here as a way to deal with this, is a fasle teaching called "healing your famly tree" and it is that I am exposing.

It is this false teaching which flies in the face of, and contradicts Church teaching. To suggest that people turn to such false teaching as way to deal with such problems should never be defended IMHO - and when it is, it's false nature must be exposed.


This has more in common with Mormonism than Catholicism.

 

[D'Ann]

I am not critiquing bene as much as I am critiquing the promotion of a false teaching - bene happens to be defending it - first introducing it here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548082-2/#post57408124

It is one thing to say that how we are raised is influenced by how our parents were raised, and so forth, and how that affects our behavior, etc. It is also one thing to say that the acts of our ancestors can give satan a hold over the lives of their descendents.

But it is quite another to promote a false teaching as a way to deal with such things.

What is being promoted here as a way to deal with this, is a fasle teaching called "healing your famly tree" and it is that I am exposing.

It is this false teaching which flies in the face of, and contradicts Church teaching. To suggest that people turn to such false teaching as way to deal with such problems should never be defended IMHO - and when it is, it's false nature must be exposed.


This has more in common with Mormonism than Catholicism.

Cool and thanks for explaining. I need to read the whole thread to try and understand. In the meantime... let's talk about the actual thread and also the heresy itself... It feels odd... even writing a post like this. LOL...

God bless

 

[D'Ann]

p.s. I'm reading this thread as a fellow Catholic and member only. My participation from the whole thread is strictly as a Catholic and member.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

It can. if you don't see them materially present itself, they can certainly present themselves invisibly. anytime there is disobedience to God, the devils flock.

People need to know that its us and our sins that draw them. they do not create a bad situation, we choose it but they can surly make it worse once there is a bad situation.

Summons demons is the most stupidest thing a person can do to themselves.

I read in a devotional book one day that Mary said to arm yourself with her rosary and place blessed objects in your home because they will send many devils to flight.

I agree with this... whenever there is disobedience to God, the demons come there. Then there are people who summon them and I agree that's one of the worst things anyone can do.

I read a story once about how a priest said an exorcism prayer for an abortion clinic and their equipment wouldn't work, etc.. It's not hard to imagine that there are demons there.. and in other places where God is not honoured.. whether abortion or immorality or the occult etc

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So here's a question..

a friend of mine is really into new age things, she's used the oiuja board and other things..

if we have friends who are into this stuff, does it affect us if we hang around them? I know this might seem like a silly question but I'm just wondering. I guess it wouldn't have an effect on someone who's in a state of grace, goes to Confession and Communion, wears the brown scapular, etc..

there are some people who are into new age who claim to "feel" the spiritual reality around them ,I'm not saying their perception is real or anything. But if they were near a person who is practicing their Catholic faith, would they feel anything? like would they feel uncomfortable?

 

[D'Ann]

Wow... this is an interesting thread. I usually stay clear of these threads because, well... they scare me. Even though, I know that God is all powerful and all loving and all forgiving and all merciful... I strongly believe in God's mercy and grace and protection from evil... especially when we pray "Our Father" and "Hail Mary" and the prayer for help from Michael the archangel.

As far as the book thingie... the family tree... I don't know enough about it or this area of the Church, but in all honesty... I'm having to agree with TLF.

I do understand that I think there is a difference with what we as human beings inherit genetically from our family tree and I'm thinking that might be part of what the book is about... but they added a spiritual addendum to it and if that is the case... then there is a problem imo.

The book is basically (from what little I've read here) saying that when an ancestor... grandma... grandpa... or great grandma ... grandpa has messed around with an occult and basically sacrificed the future family to their occult... that some how that puts some kind of trace on the family to be pulled away from God and to walk towards evil... etc. That part, maybe a half truth in that, a ancestor may have sacrificed the future of their family in whatever occult... but each family member has free will and despite what one sinner may do... Christ will still reach out to ALL of us sinners despite he sins or history sins of our family.

For instance, even though my mother played with witchcraft during my childhood, Christ still reached out to me and later on in life... my mother came back to the Catholic Church. Of course, my grandma was a strong and praying Pentecostal Christian and I know she was always praying for our family and so her prayers probably helped a lot to. That being said, my brother played strongly with pagan religions and also was a Buddhist at one time and then he came back to Christ and well... he also had a lot of mental issues which leads me to another point.

I think where the book might make some sense is that as humans, we do inherit our genetics from our family and our ancestors... which is a separate thing spiritually for the most part imo. In other words, in my family history, we do have alcoholics on both of my parents' side of the family, we also have bi-polar ism and other types of genetically inherited illnesses... I think, if I'm properly understanding from what I've read here... and even though, I think the book itself is meant as a spiritual encouraging type of book... at the same time, when the book talks about how if parents smoke, the percentage of the children smoking as adults is way up there or when parents are alcoholics, most likely, the children will be as well...

It's not necessarily that smoking or drinking... alcoholism is a inherited genetics, but rather, the children always are learning and being taught by their parents how to cope and how to overcome struggles... parents whether they realize it or not are always teaching their children something. Not only with what we say, but in how we cope... in how we work through things, in how we love others and treat others and so forth. Children also learn things from their social environment, like their peers and teachers.. and it all goes hand n hand with how children develop and some times children will recognize that their parents way of life is unhealthy and then the children as adults do figure out how to break those chains that they grew up with.

So... I'm thinking that the book in some ways is trying to encourage people to know their family tree history and look for the chains that have hurt their family in one way or another... like alcoholism and then try to re-program themselves to learn different coping mechanisms in order to help them to break the chain of alcoholism and/or smoking or other abuses. I know this one from personal experience by the way.

The next one is when we inherit diseases, whether they be ahd or add or other physical illnesses that scientists have proven are inherited genetically... in those cases, it is good to pray for healing and that is really all anyone can do... other than to take precautions and the appropriate medicine and so forth.

As far as praying for forgiveness for our ancestors who have passed on... I do think that is a heresy. We pray for our loved ones in Purgatory, that their pain and suffering will end, but praying that Christ forgive their sins... that is heresy imo. The time for forgiveness of our sins at any time is during our own life time. And yes, we may inherit our family genetics on many different levels, but we do not inherit their sins... we may suffer the effect and consequences of their sins, but we cannot ask that their sins be forgiven once they have passed on from this world and gone to where ever.

The words are tricky and words are precious and they all have meaning. I use to not care about how words were used provided the meaning was some what the same. I'm learning that words matter and semantics matter and now a days... we have to be so careful what we allow in our head to accept.

Now... I haven't read this book... the family tree or whatever it's called, so my opinion is solely based on what I've read in this thread.

I also think this issue within this topic of this thread is essential because of the kind of discussion we are having in this thread. (I hope that makes sense). The reason why is because this thread is talking about attacks and struggles and maybe this book might help some people to dig deep and re-examine their own habits and re-program their mind to overcome some of the inherited habits that they were handed by their genetics i.e. parents... grandparents ... ancestors.

On a spiritual level, I think the book could have a lot of errors and some heresy and so... read it with caution or don't read it because there are a lot of good Catholic books to spend your time reading instead... or ask your priest about it.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Wow... this is an interesting thread. I usually stay clear of these threads because, well... they scare me. Even though, I know that God is all powerful and all loving and all forgiving and all merciful... I strongly believe in God's mercy and grace and protection from evil... especially when we pray "Our Father" and "Hail Mary" and the prayer for help from Michael the archangel.

As far as the book thingie... the family tree... I don't know enough about it or this area of the Church, but in all honesty... I'm having to agree with TLF.

I do understand that I think there is a difference with what we as human beings inherit genetically from our family tree and I'm thinking that might be part of what the book is about... but they added a spiritual addendum to it and if that is the case... then there is a problem imo.

The book is basically (from what little I've read here) saying that when an ancestor... grandma... grandpa... or great grandma ... grandpa has messed around with an occult and basically sacrificed the future family to their occult... that some how that puts some kind of trace on the family to be pulled away from God and to walk towards evil... etc. That part, maybe a half truth in that, a ancestor may have sacrificed the future of their family in whatever occult... but each family member has free will and despite what one sinner may do... Christ will still reach out to ALL of us sinners despite he sins or history sins of our family.

For instance, even though my mother played with witchcraft during my childhood, Christ still reached out to me and later on in life... my mother came back to the Catholic Church. Of course, my grandma was a strong and praying Pentecostal Christian and I know she was always praying for our family and so her prayers probably helped a lot to. That being said, my brother played strongly with pagan religions and also was a Buddhist at one time and then he came back to Christ and well... he also had a lot of mental issues which leads me to another point.

I think where the book might make some sense is that as humans, we do inherit our genetics from our family and our ancestors... which is a separate thing spiritually for the most part imo. In other words, in my family history, we do have alcoholics on both of my parents' side of the family, we also have bi-polar ism and other types of genetically inherited illnesses... I think, if I'm properly understanding from what I've read here... and even though, I think the book itself is meant as a spiritual encouraging type of book... at the same time, when the book talks about how if parents smoke, the percentage of the children smoking as adults is way up there or when parents are alcoholics, most likely, the children will be as well...

It's not necessarily that smoking or drinking... alcoholism is a inherited genetics, but rather, the children always are learning and being taught by their parents how to cope and how to overcome struggles... parents whether they realize it or not are always teaching their children something. Not only with what we say, but in how we cope... in how we work through things, in how we love others and treat others and so forth. Children also learn things from their social environment, like their peers and teachers.. and it all goes hand n hand with how children develop and some times children will recognize that their parents way of life is unhealthy and then the children as adults do figure out how to break those chains that they grew up with.

So... I'm thinking that the book in some ways is trying to encourage people to know their family tree history and look for the chains that have hurt their family in one way or another... like alcoholism and then try to re-program themselves to learn different coping mechanisms in order to help them to break the chain of alcoholism and/or smoking or other abuses. I know this one from personal experience by the way.

The next one is when we inherit diseases, whether they be ahd or add or other physical illnesses that scientists have proven are inherited genetically... in those cases, it is good to pray for healing and that is really all anyone can do... other than to take precautions and the appropriate medicine and so forth.

As far as praying for forgiveness for our ancestors who have passed on... I do think that is a heresy. We pray for our loved ones in Purgatory, that their pain and suffering will end, but praying that Christ forgive their sins... that is heresy imo. The time for forgiveness of our sins at any time is during our own life time. And yes, we may inherit our family genetics on many different levels, but we do not inherit their sins... we may suffer the effect and consequences of their sins, but we cannot ask that their sins be forgiven once they have passed on from this world and gone to where ever.

The words are tricky and words are precious and they all have meaning. I use to not care about how words were used provided the meaning was some what the same. I'm learning that words matter and semantics matter and now a days... we have to be so careful what we allow in our head to accept.

Now... I haven't read this book... the family tree or whatever it's called, so my opinion is solely based on what I've read in this thread.

I also think this issue within this topic of this thread is essential because of the kind of discussion we are having in this thread. (I hope that makes sense). The reason why is because this thread is talking about attacks and struggles and maybe this book might help some people to dig deep and re-examine their own habits and re-program their mind to overcome some of the inherited habits that they were handed by their genetics i.e. parents... grandparents ... ancestors.

On a spiritual level, I think the book could have a lot of errors and some heresy and so... read it with caution or don't read it because there are a lot of good Catholic books to spend your time reading instead... or ask your priest about it.

Thank you D'Ann for taking the time to read through and give your input.

Something that should be noted . . as far as I can find, this book "Healing Your Family Tree" does not have an Imprimi Potest or Imprimatur, so it is not in any way recognized by the Church.

There is always truth mixed wtih error when a teaching enters into heresy - otherwise, we would easily recognize it and be done with it.

I don't think there is much of a question that ways of behaving, thinking, etc are passed down from parent to child. I dont' think there is much doubt that spritual issues can be passed down as well.

However, the approach of "Healing Your Family Tree" is a part of the "Generational Healing" craze which was popularized in some circles in Protestantism. I was exposed to that teaching, and while it seemed interesting and promising, there was something that held me back. As I moved towards entering the Catholic Church, learning about the Catholic faith, I realized this idea of "Generational Healing" was in grave error.

To find it now spreading within Catholic parishes is disturbing.

I am sure the author is very well intentioned, as well as bene and anyone else here who has advocated for its validity.

I am not in any way attacking those good intentions.

But good intentions do not equate with being free from grievious error. Arius was filled with good intentions, but he stubbornly and persistantly declared "There was a time when the Son was not" - denying the true Trinity.

The prayer I posted is THE prayer the author himself recommends to be prayed in keeping with what he presents in the book That prayer encapsulates the essence of the teaching, and that prayer is indeed promoting praying for things we can never validly pray for and never should be taught to pray for if we hold true to Catholic teaching.

We can never validly pray for God to forgive the sins of someone who has died. They have either already been forgiven or they no longer be forgiven. There is no forgiveness extended past the grave. Forgivenss flows from God's Grace and all opportunity to respond to God's Grace ceases at the moment of death.

However, this author would have us pray for our ancestors to be forgiven:

Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit.
​

Now notice something else about this . . .it is not a prayer that has the ancestors benefit in mind, it has the benefit of the one saying it ultimately in mind.

...whose failures have left their effects on me ...
​

The prayer does not ask for ALL sins of one's ancestors to be forgive, but only focuses on THOSE SINS (failures) that are having an effect on the one saying the prayer.

NO WHERE does the Church teach this.

When we pray for the dead, as I said before, the Church does not teach us to pray for them in a manner that gives any direct benefit to us, or iwhich is self-serving in any way. Our prayers are to be sacrificial in nature, the only benefit in mind being for those in pugatory. There is not be no thought for benefit to ourselves. . . We are not instructed to pray for a soul in purgatory in a manner such that the goal of that prayer is not ultimately for them, but for us so we may have an easier time of things in this life.


Yet this prayer for healing our family tree would have us do exactly that.

. .. it turns what is suppsed to be a selfless, sacrifical giving of self on behalf of one in purgatory, into a self-centered praying for ANY ancestor whose failures, whose sins, may be impacting us in some manner. and so it instructs us to pray for them only to receive some benefit to ourselves. . . .Instead of engaging in selfless prayer for the deceased within the bounds the Church allows us, this is a self-centered prayer, which promotes, in reality, narsicism.

Error is often very subtle, with such nuances subtly shifting our ideas and deeds from being selfless to self-centered in a manner we may find difficult to detect.



Additionally, when we are baptized, we receive the power of the Sacrament, the infusion of Divine Sanctifying Grace into our souls.

When we are baptized, prayers of exorcism are prayed over us:

THE PRAYERS OF EXORCISM

89. During the Sacrament of Baptism, the Priest says two prayers of Exorcism.

90. The first one is said after the reading of the Gospel. During that prayer, the Priest commands any impure spirits who might be present to depart from the person to be baptised. This process is to purify the physical body of the believer. The spiritual body does not need purification because a new creation will be born when the sinful one dies.

91. The second prayer of Exorcism is called "Ephpheta." (Ephpheta means 'Be opened') After the prayer, the Priest touches the ears and mouth of the child with his thumb. He then says, "The Lord Jesus made the deaf hear and the dumb speak. May He soon touch your ears to receive His Word, and your mouth to proclaim His faith, to the praise and glory of God the Father."
​

This prayer would seem to negate such power of the Church and the Sacramental power of baptism.



In addition, if we pray for our ancestors to be forgiven, our actions would declare - actions speak louder than words - the Magesterium to be in error and Her teachings not worthy of belief, for She teaches us that there is no forgiveness of sins after death.

If the Church teaches there is no forgiveness of sins after death, what other purpose would there be to pray asking God to forgive the sins of someone who has died, other than to put one's self at odds with this teaching of the Catholic Church?


The simple fact of the matter is we have no need to go digging into our family tree to pray for forgiveness for our ancestors, or for them to be released from bondate, or anything else this prayer and teahing would instruct us to do for them.


We have been given all we need - the Church, the Sacraments, the Priesthood, the Eucharist, We have not been lacking in anything in the Church.


We don't need innovative teachings which contradict the teaching of the Church.

 

[D'Ann]

Thank you D'Ann for taking the time to read through and give your input.

Something that should be noted . . as far as I can find, this book "Healing Your Family Tree" does not have an Imprimi Potest or Imprimatur, so it is not in any way recognized by the Church.

There is always truth mixed wtih error when a teaching enters into heresy - otherwise, we would easily recognize it and be done with it.

I don't think there is much of a question that ways of behaving, thinking, etc are passed down from parent to child. I dont' think there is much doubt that spritual issues can be passed down as well.

However, the approach of "Healing Your Family Tree" is a part of the "Generational Healing" craze which was popularized in some circles in Protestantism. I was exposed to that teaching, and while it seemed interesting and promising, there was something that held me back. As I moved towards entering the Catholic Church, learning about the Catholic faith, I realized this idea of "Generational Healing" was in grave error.

To find it now spreading within Catholic parishes is disturbing.

I am sure the author is very well intentioned, as well as bene and anyone else here who has advocated for its validity.

I am not in any way attacking those good intentions.

But good intentions do not equate with being free from grievious error. Arius was filled with good intentions, but he stubbornly and persistantly declared "There was a time when the Son was not" - denying the true Trinity.

The prayer I posted is THE prayer the author himself recommends to be prayed in keeping with what he presents in the book That prayer encapsulates the essence of the teaching, and that prayer is indeed promoting praying for things we can never validly pray for and never should be taught to pray for if we hold true to Catholic teaching.

We can never validly pray for God to forgive the sins of someone who has died. They have either already been forgiven or they no longer be forgiven. There is no forgiveness extended past the grave. Forgivenss flows from God's Grace and all opportunity to respond to God's Grace ceases at the moment of death.

However, this author would have us pray for our ancestors to be forgiven:

Lord. But I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors whose failures have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, behavior patterns and defects in body, mind and spirit.
​

Now notice something else about this . . .it is not a prayer that has the ancestors benefit in mind, it has the benefit of the one saying it ultimately in mind.

...whose failures have left their effects on me ...
​

The prayer does not ask for ALL sins of one's ancestors to be forgive, but only focuses on THOSE SINS (failures) that are having an effect on the one saying the prayer.

NO WHERE does the Church teach this.

When we pray for the dead, as I said before, the Church does not teach us to pray for them in a manner that gives any direct benefit to us, or iwhich is self-serving in any way. Our prayers are to be sacrificial in nature, the only benefit in mind being for those in pugatory. There is not be no thought for benefit to ourselves. . . We are not instructed to pray for a soul in purgatory in a manner such that the goal of that prayer is not ultimately for them, but for us so we may have an easier time of things in this life.


Yet this prayer for healing our family tree would have us do exactly that.

. .. it turns what is suppsed to be a selfless, sacrifical giving of self on behalf of one in purgatory, into a self-centered praying for ANY ancestor whose failures, whose sins, may be impacting us in some manner. and so it instructs us to pray for them only to receive some benefit to ourselves. . . .Instead of engaging in selfless prayer for the deceased within the bounds the Church allows us, this is a self-centered prayer, which promotes, in reality, narsicism.

Error is often very subtle, with such nuances subtly shifting our ideas and deeds from being selfless to self-centered in a manner we may find difficult to detect.



Additionally, when we are baptized, we receive the power of the Sacrament, the infusion of Divine Sanctifying Grace into our souls.

When we are baptized, prayers of exorcism are prayed over us:

THE PRAYERS OF EXORCISM

89. During the Sacrament of Baptism, the Priest says two prayers of Exorcism.

90. The first one is said after the reading of the Gospel. During that prayer, the Priest commands any impure spirits who might be present to depart from the person to be baptised. This process is to purify the physical body of the believer. The spiritual body does not need purification because a new creation will be born when the sinful one dies.

91. The second prayer of Exorcism is called "Ephpheta." (Ephpheta means 'Be opened') After the prayer, the Priest touches the ears and mouth of the child with his thumb. He then says, "The Lord Jesus made the deaf hear and the dumb speak. May He soon touch your ears to receive His Word, and your mouth to proclaim His faith, to the praise and glory of God the Father."
​

This prayer would seem to negate such power of the Church and the Sacramental power of baptism.



In addition, if we pray for our ancestors to be forgiven, our actions would declare - actions speak louder than words - the Magesterium to be in error and Her teachings not worthy of belief, for She teaches us that there is no forgiveness of sins after death.

If the Church teaches there is no forgiveness of sins after death, what other purpose would there be to pray asking God to forgive the sins of someone who has died, other than to put one's self at odds with this teaching of the Catholic Church?


The simple fact of the matter is we have no need to go digging into our family tree to pray for forgiveness for our ancestors, or for them to be released from bondate, or anything else this prayer and teahing would instruct us to do for them.


We have been given all we need - the Church, the Sacraments, the Priesthood, the Eucharist, We have not been lacking in anything in the Church.


We don't need innovative teachings which contradict the teaching of the Church.

That makes sense. There is one thing that we can do though here on earth for our family and ancestors is to forgive them for any hurt or illness that we believe they caused or gave to us. By forgiving others... dead or alive, that in itself helps to heal our own heart and helps us to continually evolve as Christians. But yeah, I don't think we should be praying for God to forgive sins of those who have passed away here on earth. But we must definitely and should pray for the souls in Purgatory.

There are a lot of unknown mysteries, but I do think the Catholic Church is pretty clear on this one. At least from my understanding.

God bless... interesting thread.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes D'Ann .. . it is we who must forgive them.