We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam

[Winman]

Romans5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This scripture does not prove your view, it refutes it. Paul could not possibly be teaching Original Sin here, because he speaks of men from Adam to Moses ONLY. If Paul were teaching Original Sin, then he would have told us this death extended to ALL MEN.

Isn't that so?

Not only that, but Paul directly tells us in verse 14 that these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned in the likeness or similitude of Adam.

These men did not eat the forbidden fruit in the garden with Adam as Augustine falsely taught, otherwise they would have committed the EXACT same sin as Adam.

So, this scripture cannot possibly be teaching Original Sin. You must read that into the text.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

This scripture does not prove your view, it refutes it. Paul could not possibly be teaching Original Sin here, because he speaks of men from Adam to Moses ONLY. If Paul were teaching Original Sin, then he would have told us this death extended to ALL MEN.

Isn't that so?

No!

Not only that, but Paul directly tells us in verse 14 that these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned in the likeness or similitude of Adam.

These men did not eat the forbidden fruit in the garden with Adam as Augustine falsely taught, otherwise they would have committed the EXACT same sin as Adam.

St. Augustine and his beliefs have no bearing on what Paul wrote.

So, this scripture cannot possibly be teaching Original Sin. You must read that into the text.

I am not advocating for Augustine’s doctrines of “original sin.” Why are you reading that doctrine into my posts?

Paul is making an argument using deductive logic:

Premise: People died during a period in which personal sins were not imputed.

Conclusion: They died because the sin of Adam was imputed to them.

 

[Winman]

No!

This is not an argument.

St. Augustine and his beliefs have no bearing on what Paul wrote.

Yet you believe Augustine's erroneous interpretation of Romans 5 resulting from using a flawed Latin text.

I am not advocating for Augustine’s doctrines of “original sin.” Why are you reading that doctrine into my posts?

Paul is making an argument using deductive logic:

Premise: People died during a period in which personal sins were not imputed.

Conclusion: They died because the sin of Adam was imputed to them.

This is nothing but ASSUMPTION on your part. This is not what the text says whatsoever. Here is what it really says;

#1 By one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin.

#2 Death passed upon all men because that all men sinned. It does not say one word about sinning "in Adam", you are reading that into the text when it is not there. It simply says death passed on all men because or for that all men sinned.

#3 Until the Mosaic law sin was in the world. Sin is not imputed when there is no law.

What is the logical conclusion of #3? If sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law, then there MUST have been law in the world.

#4 The fact that men from Adam to Moses (when there was not written law) died proves that there was a law in the world.

Now here is where you ASSUME Paul is teaching that this implies men were guilty under Adam's one commandment, but verse 14 completely refutes this. These men DID NOT sin Adam's sin. They DID NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Verse 14 directly tells us they did not commit this sin, or any sin similar to Adam's.

So what law did they break? The only answer is the law written on the heart that Paul had already explained in chapter 2;

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul has already explained how men without law perish. They die because by nature they have the law written on their hearts. Does Paul say men without the law die because of Adam here? NO!

These Jews Paul was addressing KNEW men from Adam to Moses sinned, the scriptures tell of of many men (such as Sodom and Gomorrah) who sinned before the law. They perished for their own sin, not Adam's. The scriptures tell us the men of Sodom and Gomorrah died for their own sinful ways, not Adam's.

This is why ALL men from Adam to Moses spiritually died, because they violated and broke the law written on all men's hearts. Paul had already told us in chapter 1 that all men have knowledge of God by observing the things that are made and are WITHOUT EXCUSE.

In fact, for the first 3 chapters of Romans Paul tells us that all men are guilty before God and without excuse and does not mention Adam even once!

What Adam did was introduce the judgment of being judged "a sinner" and the sentence for this judgment, death.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

All men who sinned after Adam were judged "as a sinner" just like Adam was, and were given the same exact sentence, death. This is called "legal precedent" in law.

Likewise, those who believed as Jesus believed were imputed or made "righteous" and given the gift of justification unto life. This also is called "legal precedent".

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 5. Paul is not teaching that men from Adam to Moses died because of Adam's sin, they HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, that is clearly stated in verse 14.

 

[Bluelion]

Thanks Blu, I already know all the classic Calvinist proof texts. Psalm 51:5 is describing David's mother, not Davd, men do not conceive, only women conceive. David is saying "in sin did my mother conceive me". His mother was doing something wrong when David was conceived, but we are not told what.

We do know that David's family was ashamed of him for some reason. When the prophet Samuel came and asked Jesse to present all his sons to him, twice he failed to bring David. Only the third time when Samuel insisted did Jesse admit that he left David with the sheep. When he finally brought David, David was chosen by Samuel. We also know by this account that David did not look like his brothers who were all tall and handsome, whereas David was short, ruddy (red-headed) and not attractive to look at.

David was the "black-sheep" of the family and had always been treated poorly by his father and brothers. In his shame of committing adultery with Bathsheba, I believe David was just confirming what his family had probably always told him, that he was no good. But I cannot be 100% sure on this.

What I am 100% sure of is, David did not say all men are born sinners in Psalm 51:5, you have to read that into the text.

As the Calvinist here will tell you I am far from a Calvinist. it Is biblical text not a Calvinist one. In fact yes king David was saying all men are born into sin.

well i said my peace and prayed for you, think that is about all i can do. I can't make you see i am not the light Jesus is, only He can show you.

wish you well.

peace and love
blu

 

[Winman]

As the Calvinist here will tell you I am far from a Calvinist. it Is biblical text not a Calvinist one. In fact yes king David was saying all men are born into sin.

well i said my peace and prayed for you, think that is about all i can do. I can't make you see i am not the light Jesus is, only He can show you.

wish you well.

peace and love
blu

Well, we will just have to disagree. For David to suddenly change context from confessing his sin with Bathsheba and then blame it on being born a sinner is anything but a confession, it is an excuse.

Again, verse 5 is describing David's mother, not all men at birth. Substitute words and it becomes obvious.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Now substitute words and you will see this is speaking of David's mother, not David.

Behold, I was beaten in anger, and in wrath did my mother strike me.

This may seem silly, but it demonstrates the verse is describing the actions of David's mother, not David. David IS NOT telling us that all men are born sinners here. This is not doctrinal scripture here, it is a song of repentance.

Again, I believe that scripture shows there was some sort of problem with David's mother. David had two sisters, Abigail and Zeruiah whose father was Nahash the Ammonite, not Jesse.

1 Chr 2:15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.

David's mother bare Abigail and Zeruiah to Nahash the Ammonite which was strictly forbidden for Jewish women.

We do not know exactly the circumstance, but David said "in sin did my mother conceive me".

We do know that David's father Jesse was ashamed of him and twice neglected to present him to Samuel when he asked to see all of Jesse's sons. We also know that David did not look like his brothers who were tall and handsome, while David was short, ruddy (red skinned/haired) and unattractive.

1 Sam 16:5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him.
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.

OK, David alone had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. David did not look like his brothers. Twice Jesse refused to bring David when Samuel asked to see all of his sons.

Figure it out.

You cannot take a single verse of scripture like Psalm 51:5 and build doctrine around it. It is not discussing all men's nature at birth. This verse was describing David and his mother only.

This verse has been taken completely out of context and misinterpreted, you have simply believed what you have been told without studying it out.

The scriptures actually say that God has made men upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse says God has made man upright. The word "they" points back to the word man showing this is speaking of all men.

David actually said he was fearfully and wonderfully made.

Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

What would be wonderful and marvellous about being made a sinner? Absurd.

You need to study all the scriptures, not pull a single verse completely out of context and build doctrine on it.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Babies die due to Adam's sin. How could a baby eat of the Tree of Life, not being able to eat, only able to drink milk?

The curse was passed unto all of Adam's prodigy. What caused the curse? Sin. Then how can all Adam's prodigy receive the curse, yet not the sin/guilt?

Welcome to CF Winman.