We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam

[twin1954]

Does anyone know why I can make such a statement? Why is the statement true?


I didn't ask why it was false because it isn't.

 

[Avid]

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, came to Earth as a Human to save humans. He was not an angel, and did not come here to redeem angels. He was not in the form of anything, but a man, and thus He suffered for the redemption of man.

Jesus' sacrifice was to pay the penalty caused by Adam's sin. The guilt had passed upon all men, and the corruption of man was a result of the Fall of Man, in the First Man, Adam.

From the Fall of Man to the birth of Jesus Christ, man was at enmity with God, and even the best of men that died were not allowed into God's presence. At Jesus' birth, the angels of Heaven declared that there was "Peace on Earth, Good Will toward men." This was because the Peace of God was upon the Earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, and God's Good Will was toward man for the first time since the Fall.

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hebrews 2
10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

I John 4
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
​

The salvation of God was all for man, and no other creature. It was man's sin that condemned the whole creation, and when all things are resolved, the corruption of the whole creation will be remedied in the process.

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
​

.

 

[twin1954]

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, came to Earth as a Human to save humans. He was not an angel, and did not come here to redeem angels. He was not in the form of anything, but a man, and thus He suffered for the redemption of man.

Jesus' sacrifice was to pay the penalty caused by Adam's sin. The guilt had passed upon all men, and the corruption of man was a result of the Fall of Man, in the First Man, Adam.

From the Fall of Man to the birth of Jesus Christ, man was at enmity with God, and even the best of men that died were not allowed into God's presence. At Jesus' birth, the angels of Heaven declared that there was "Peace on Earth, Good Will toward men." This was because the Peace of God was upon the Earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, and God's Good Will was toward man for the first time since the Fall.

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hebrews 2
10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

I John 4
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
​

The salvation of God was all for man, and no other creature. It was man's sin that condemned the whole creation, and when all things are resolved, the corruption of the whole creation will be remedied in the process.

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
​

.

Very close to my thoughts. Let me give you another reference that may point to what I am talking about. I hope you can get the connection.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Heb 7:9-10)

Sad to say it is a Biblical teaching that is just about unheard of today. It has to do with how we are saved in Christ.

 

[Avid]

Yes, though we had a sermon on that passage a few weeks ago at our Church. So much sound, scriptural teaching is passed by these days.

During the last two or three generations the pulpit has given less and less prominence to doctrinal preaching, until today − with very rare exceptions − it has no place at all.
Arthur W. Pink (1886−1952)
​

This was written well over 60 years ago. I moan to God about that from the heart, and must seek the LORD's intercession by His Holy Spirit to express the need to the Father.

A good pastor, that preached that in his day, died early this year at about 90. (...seems to me you knew one, too.) Every man must answer to the LORD for the works they have done, but the man has this to his credit, that he stood firm on the truth for most of his long career as a preacher of the word. Most of my understanding was learned by applying what he had preached. I'll certainly quote him at various times.
.

 

[twin1954]

Yes, though we had a sermon on that passage a few weeks ago at our Church. So much sound, scriptural teaching is passed by these days.

During the last two or three generations the pulpit has given less and less prominence to doctrinal preaching, until today − with very rare exceptions − it has no place at all.
Arthur W. Pink (1886−1952)
​

This was written well over 60 years ago. I moan to God about that from the heart, and must seek the LORD's intercession by His Holy Spirit to express the need to the Father.

A good pastor, that preached that in his day, died early this year at about 90. (...seems to me you knew one, too.) Every man must answer to the LORD for the works they have done, but the man has this to his credit, that he stood firm on the truth for most of his long career as a preacher of the word. Most of my understanding was learned by applying what he had preached. I'll certainly quote him at various times.
.

Was the sermon on Federal, or representative, headship? That is the basis of my statement. I am using the statement to introduce the subject this morning.

 

[Avid]

Our pastor is not so refined as that. He would not present it in the way you have described. In his way, he may have hit upon certain of those points without saying just that.

I merely mentioned that to say it is why I even go there at all, because we do have these thing preached. I intended to agree with you in the general way you presented this to begin discussion.
.

 

[Winman]

Does anyone know why I can make such a statement? Why is the statement true?

I didn't ask why it was false because it isn't.

Hi, new to the forum here.

Actually, your OP statement is not accurate. Nobody sins "in Adam". In fact, the term "in Adam" is found only ONCE in all of scripture in 1 Cor 15:22 and speaks of our FUTURE physical death "in Adam"

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This verse does not say we "sinned in Adam" it says in Adam all "die" which is FUTURE tense. This is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals with our physical death and the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

There is NO verse in all of scripture that says we sinned in Adam, you cannot possibly show it.

It is true that because of Adam's sin God banned man's access to the tree of life and therefore all men will physically die. But nowhere do the scriptures teach that we sinned in Adam. In fact, the scriptures are clear that the son shall not bear the sins or iniquities of his father, or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This idea that all men sinned in Adam came primarily from Augustine who used a known flawed Latin text (he did not know Greek well) that interpreted Romans 5:12 to say "in whom all sinned" which Augustine ASSUMED to refer to Adam. Almost all Greek scholars agree this Latin text was error and that the Greek translates "for that all have sinned" or "because all have sinned" showing that all men die for their own PERSONAL sin, not Adam's.

Paul showed that all men were sinners and worthy of death in the first three chapters of Romans, and did not mention Adam even ONCE. Men are sinners because they willingly and knowingly choose to sin, not because of Adam.

 

[twin1954]

Hi, new to the forum here.

great way to introduce yourself, come out swinging.

Actually, your OP statement is not accurate.

But it is and I will show why.

Nobody sins "in Adam".

If you deny the imputation of Adam's sin then you must also deny the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. You can't have it both ways.

In fact, the term "in Adam" is found only ONCE in all of scripture in 1 Cor 15:22 and speaks of our FUTURE physical death "in Adam"

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This verse does not say we "sinned in Adam" it says in Adam all "die" which is FUTURE tense. This is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals with our physical death and the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

I have no problem with this interpretation. It is contextual yet the application of the words is still true to spiritual death which is clearly taught in other passages. Eph. 2:1 for instance. It does no injustice to the passage to apply it to what is clearly taught in other passages. Moreover the spiritual aspect of the Scriptures and their interpretation is clearly used by the Lord and the Apostles. 1Cor. 9:9,10 is an example. Also Gal. 4:24-31. Your objection has no merit.

There is NO verse in all of scripture that says we sinned in Adam, you cannot possibly show it.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures. Have you not read Rom. 5:12-19? It is clear who the passage is speaking of though he is not named. Moreover if we did not sin in Adam then why do babies and the unborn die? Hint, see Rom. 5:14.

It is true that because of Adam's sin God banned man's access to the tree of life

I would say that the flaming sword was to keep the way of the tree of life open.

and therefore all men will physically die.

the death promised to Adam wasn't just physical death. In fact God promised that in the day he sinned, in other words when you sin, you shall surely die. Adam lived many year after that dreadful day. Did God lie? Of course not. It happened immediately and that is why Adam tried to hide himself in the trees and tried to cover himself and then tried to blame the woman and then God for his sin. No Adam died spiritually and lost communion with God because of it.

But nowhere do the scriptures teach that we sinned in Adam.

Sure they do. I have already given you one reference.

In fact, the scriptures are clear that the son shall not bear the sins or iniquities of his father, or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Once again you do err not knowing the Scriptures. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
(Exo 34:6-7)

This idea that all men sinned in Adam came primarily from Augustine who used a known flawed Latin text (he did not know Greek well) that interpreted Romans 5:12 to say "in whom all sinned" which Augustine ASSUMED to refer to Adam. Almost all Greek scholars agree this Latin text was error and that the Greek translates "for that all have sinned" or "because all have sinned" showing that all men die for their own PERSONAL sin, not Adam's.

The actual translation of the Greek is: Therefore as through one man sin into the world entered and through the sin the death passed upon them as all sinned

Or if you don't like my translation here is Young's Literal Translation:
because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
(Rom 5:12)

Paul showed that all men were sinners and worthy of death in the first three chapters of Romans, and did not mention Adam even ONCE. Men are sinners because they willingly and knowingly choose to sin, not because of Adam.

We sin because we are sinners. Sin is les the act than the nature. We inherited a sin nature from our Father Adam. He was created in innocence but lost it when he fell and it could never be regained by any act of man or by natural generation. Paul didn't need to mention Adam in the first three chapters of Romans but he did progress in his doctrine until he did in Rom. 5. He was laying line upon line precept upon precept. That was Paul's way of teaching.

Now I have answered all of your nonsense for the sake of those who read this and am done. I will not argue truth with you. Bye!

 

[Hammster]

If we claim that Adam's sin wasn't imputed to us, how can we say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?

 

[Winman]

If we claim that Adam's sin wasn't imputed to us, how can we say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?

Good argument. Now let me ask you a question, is Christ's righteousness UNCONDITIONALLY imputed to us? NO. We must conditionally believe to be imputed righteous.

Romans chapter 4 speaking of Abraham says;

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Being imputed righteous is CONDITIONAL, we MUST believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous.

The problem is, most poeple interpret Romans 5:18-19 to say that Adam's sin was imputed UNCONDTIONALLY to all men. This violates Paul's "parallel" form of argument, where each side of each verse must be treated equally.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You must treat each side of each verse equally, this is the form of argument Paul is using in this passage. This gives you two possibilities;

#1 If Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then likewise Jesus's righteousness is uncondtionally imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and in fact, Romans 5:18-19 are the favorite "proof texts" for Universalists.

#2 Adam's sin is conditionally imputed to all men who sin as he did, likewise, righteousness is imputed to all men who believe God to save them as Jesus believed his Father to raise him from the dead.

These are the ONLY possibilities that are consistent with Paul's form of parallel argument in Romans 5. We know #1 cannot be true, because the scriptures are clear that many men will be lost. This leaves only #2 as tenable.

But to unconditionally impute Adam's sin to all men while conditionally imputing Jesus's righteousness to only those who believe is inconsistent and violates Paul's form of argument.

Thanks for the great question.

 

[twin1954]

Good argument. Now let me ask you a question, is Christ's righteousness UNCONDITIONALLY imputed to us? NO. We must conditionally believe to be imputed righteous.

Romans chapter 4 speaking of Abraham says;

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Being imputed righteous is CONDITIONAL, we MUST believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous.

The problem is, most poeple interpret Romans 5:18-19 to say that Adam's sin was imputed UNCONDTIONALLY to all men. This violates Paul's "parallel" form of argument, where each side of each verse must be treated equally.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You must treat each side of each verse equally, this is the form of argument Paul is using in this passage. This gives you two possibilities;

#1 If Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then likewise Jesus's righteousness is uncondtionally imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and in fact, Romans 5:18-19 are the favorite "proof texts" for Universalists.

#2 Adam's sin is conditionally imputed to all men who sin as he did, likewise, righteousness is imputed to all men who believe God to save them as Jesus believed his Father to raise him from the dead.

These are the ONLY possibilities that are consistent with Paul's form of parallel argument in Romans 5. We know #1 cannot be true, because the scriptures are clear that many men will be lost. This leaves only #2 as tenable.

But to unconditionally impute Adam's sin to all men while conditionally imputing Jesus's righteousness to only those who believe is inconsistent and violates Paul's form of argument.

Thanks for the great question.

Nonsense. Paul's argument is concerning those who are each represented by the one. He is talking about those who are the seed of Adam and those who are the seed of Christ. One is by natural generation and the other by spiritual generation.

And I would argue that the imputation of the righteousness of Christ was before the foundation of the world.

 

[Winman]

Nonsense. Paul's argument is concerning those who are each represented by the one. He is talking about those who are the seed of Adam and those who are the seed of Christ. One is by natural generation and the other by spiritual generation.

And I would argue that the imputation of the righteousness of Christ was before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, you are wrong and Romans 5:14 proves this.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:14 proves that Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin for two reasons;

#1 Paul speaks of men from Adam to Moses only. If Paul was teaching Original Sin, this death would extend to ALL men.

Isn't this so?

#2 Paul directly says these persons from Adam to Moses "HAD NOT" sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin.

Augustine falsely believed that all men were present in Adam seminally and sinned with him in the garden. Many folks also believe Hebrews 7:10 supports this;

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

If we are to take this verse literally, it introduces all sorts of problems. We would not only be guilty of Adam's first sin, but ALL of his sins. But not only would we be guilty of Adam's sins, we would be guilty of ALL of our grandfather's sins.

Hold on, it gets worse. Levi got credit for paying tithes here, he got credit for a righteous act of worship. Therefore if this verse is taken literally, we would also receive credit for our grandfather's faith and all men would be saved.

No, all the writer of Hebrews was doing is showing that the priesthood of Jesus was greater than the priesthood of Aaron. This passage cannot be taken literally.

Either way, Paul could not be teaching Original Sin in Romans 5, because he speaks of men from Adam to Moses only, and he directly says they DID NOT sin like Adam did.

So why did men from Adam to Moses without the law die? Simple, they died because the law was written on their hearts. Paul had already explained this in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul here tells us that men without the law shall perish without the law. Why? Because the law is written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no law perished in Romans 5.

 

[twin1954]

Sorry, you are wrong and Romans 5:14 proves this.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:14 proves that Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin for two reasons;

#1 Paul speaks of men from Adam to Moses only. If Paul was teaching Original Sin, this death would extend to ALL men.

Isn't this so?

#2 Paul directly says these persons from Adam to Moses "HAD NOT" sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin.

Augustine falsely believed that all men were present in Adam seminally and sinned with him in the garden. Many folks also believe Hebrews 7:10 supports this;

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

If we are to take this verse literally, it introduces all sorts of problems. We would not only be guilty of Adam's first sin, but ALL of this sins. But not only would we be guilty of Adam's sins, we would be guilty of ALL of our grandfather's sins.

Hold on, it gets worse. Levi got credit for paying tithes here, he got credit for a righteous act of worship. Therefore if this verse is taken literally, we would also receive credit for our grandfather's faith and all men would be saved.

No, all the writer of Hebrews was doing is showing that the priesthood of Jesus was greater than the priesthood of Aaron. This passage cannot be taken literally.

Either way, Paul could not be teaching Original Sin in Romans 5, because he speaks of men from Adam to Moses only, and he directly says they DID NOT sin like Adam did.

So why did men from Adam to Moses without the law die? Simple, they died because the law was written on their hearts. Paul had already explained this in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul here tells us that men without the law shall perish without the law. Why? Because the law is written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no law perished in Romans 5.

Rom. 5:14 is talking about infants and the unborn who die. If your premise is correct then why do infants and the unborn die? Death is the penalty for sin is it not?

 

[twin1954]

Also you seem to have missed the last phrase in Rom. 5:14. Adam was the figure of Christ. Paul's whole argument is that we are saved in the same way we were condemned.

 

[Winman]

Rom. 5:14 is talking about infants and the unborn who die. If your premise is correct then why do infants and the unborn die? Death is the penalty for sin is it not?

No, Romans 5:13-14 is speaking of men from Adam to Moses who had no law. Adam had one law, he could not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is impossible that men after Adam could break this law, as God banned man from the garden.

In verse 13 Paul tells us sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, men from Adam to Moses died, proving there must have been some law in the world (after Moses the Mosaic law was in the world). That law was the law written on men's hearts that Paul had explained in Romans chapter 2.

Paul IS NOT teaching Original Sin here, or else this death would extend to ALL men. And again, Paul clearly tells us these men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the likeness or similitude of Adam.

You have simply believed what you have been told. If you read these scriptures carefully you would see they refute Original Sin.

 

[Winman]

Also you seem to have missed the last phrase in Rom. 5:14. Adam was the figure of Christ. Paul's whole argument is that we are saved in the same way we were condemned.

Yes, Adam was the "first" to sin and introduced the judgment for sin (being judged "a sinner") and the condemnation for that offense (death).

Jesus was also the "first". He was the first to trust God to save him. He introduced the judgment of being "righteous" and the free gift of eternal life.

This is what is known in law as a "legal precedent". A legal precedent is a process used by the courts to treat subsequent crimes in a like or similar manner. This provides for fairness and equal treatment for criminals. But it can also apply to lawful deeds.

When Adam sinned he was judged "a sinner" and sentenced to death. Likewise, those who sin after Adam are judged or "made" sinners and sentenced to death.

When Jesus was obedient and trusted God he was judged "righteous" and raised from the dead to eternal life. Likewise, those who trust God to save them are judged "righteous" and are raised to eternal life.

 

[Messy]

Does anyone know why I can make such a statement? Why is the statement true?


I didn't ask why it was false because it isn't.

It's true because I wasn't there when Adam sinned and I wasn't in him, that was Eve, so I only sinned through him, he let satan in and the blood got polluted and everyone got the flesh nature and sinned themselves. When I was dead in my sins I was not in Jesus, I got saved through Jesus and then I was in Him, a new creature.

 

[twin1954]

No, Romans 5:13-14 is speaking of men from Adam to Moses who had no law. Adam had one law, he could not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is impossible that men after Adam could break this law, as God banned man from the garden.

In verse 13 Paul tells us sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, men from Adam to Moses died, proving there must have been some law in the world (after Moses the Mosaic law was in the world). That law was the law written on men's hearts that Paul had explained in Romans chapter 2.

Paul IS NOT teaching Original Sin here, or else this death would extend to ALL men. And again, Paul clearly tells us these men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the likeness or similitude of Adam.

You have simply believed what you have been told. If you read these scriptures carefully you would see they refute Original Sin.

In Rom. 2 Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who did not have the law. The law was given to Israel but he was showing that even the Gentiles understood that murder and theft were wrong because of a law, the law of moral truth given to all men naturally, was in them. Paul is not speaking of men as you say in Rom. 5:14 but of infants and the unborn who die. Again I would ask that you answer my question of why infants and the unborn die if sin is not imputed from Adam. You haven't answered that yet. I have now asked three times but you seem to be avoiding it. In fact you have not answered any of my post in response to your first post.

 

[Winman]

Also you seem to have missed the last phrase in Rom. 5:14. Adam was the figure of Christ. Paul's whole argument is that we are saved in the same way we were condemned.

And you have missed your own argument. Yes, Paul is showing that we are condemned the same way we are saved, CONDITIONALLY.

We are condemned when we conditionally sin as Adam sinned, we are saved when we conditionally believe as Jesus believed.

This is exactly where people err, most people impute Adam's sin to all men UNCONDTIONALLY. This violates Paul's form of "parallelism" used in this passage. You MUST treat each half of each verse EQUALLY. Either sin and righteousness is imputed UNCONDITIONALLY to ALL men, or else it is CONDITIONAL. But they MUST be the same to be consistent with Paul's form of argument here.

 

[Winman]

In Rom. 2 Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who did not have the law. The law was given to Israel but he was showing that even the Gentiles understood that murder and theft were wrong because of a law, the law of moral truth given to all men naturally, was in them. Paul is not speaking of men as you say in Rom. 5:14 but of infants and the unborn who die. Again I would ask that you answer my question of why infants and the unborn die if sin is not imputed from Adam. You haven't answered that yet. I have now asked three times but you seem to be avoiding it. In fact you have not answered any of my post in response to your first post.

Baloney, there is not one word about infants in Romans 5:13-14. This scripture is clearly speaking of MEN from Adam to Moses.

If it was speaking of infants, why stop at Moses?? Absurd.