We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam

[twin1954]

In response to the assertion that the Heb. 7 passage cannot be taken literally. First if we cannot understand representation from the passage it makes no sense.

Second your assertion that we would be guilty of all of Adam's sin is nonsense. He ceased to be a representative man when he fell. Paul makes it clear in Rom. 5:16 that Adam's one sin plunged us all into condemnation and death but Christ has put away many offenses by His life and death.

 

[twin1954]

Baloney, there is not one word about infants in Romans 5:13-14. This scripture is clearly speaking of MEN from Adam to Moses.

If it was speaking of infants, why stop at Moses?? Absurd.

Again I would ask you to tell us then why do infants and the unborn die if your premise is correct. Death is the penalty for sin. How does that fit into your scheme?

 

[twin1954]

Yes, Adam was the "first" to sin and introduced the judgment for sin (being judged "a sinner") and the condemnation for that offense (death).

Jesus was also the "first". He was the first to trust God to save him. He introduced the judgment of being "righteous" and the free gift of eternal life.

This is what is known in law as a "legal precedent". A legal precedent is a process used by the courts to treat subsequent crimes in a like or similar manner. This provides for fairness and equal treatment for criminals. But it can also apply to lawful deeds.

When Adam sinned he was judged "a sinner" and sentenced to death. Likewise, those who sin after Adam are judged or "made" sinners and sentenced to death.

When Jesus was obedient and trusted God he was judged "righteous" and raised from the dead to eternal life. Likewise, those who trust God to save them are judged "righteous" and are raised to eternal life.

The legal precedent is representation. Our system of government is based upon it. when our congressman or senator acts he acts for us as though we acted ourselves and it is binding on us. The same is true for an Ambassador to another country. He represents us to the other country. What he says or does in the capacity of Ambassador is binding on us. It is as though we did it ourselves. That is the legal precedence. Representation is throughout the Scriptures. In fact the whole sacrificial system is based in it.

Did not God punish all of Israel because of the sin of Eli and his sons? Did not God send a plague all of the people when David numbered the people? Why would He do that if not for representation? Again you do err not knowing the Scriptures. Representative headship is all through the Scriptures and it cannot be denied. You can twist and mangle all you desire but you cannot remove it.

The whole concept of substitution is grounded in representation.

 

[Winman]

In response to the assertion that the Heb. 7 passage cannot be taken literally. First if we cannot understand representation from the passage it makes no sense.

Second your assertion that we would be guilty of all of Adam's sin is nonsense. He ceased to be a representative man when he fell. Paul makes it clear in Rom. 5:16 that Adam's one sin plunged us all into condemnation and death but Christ has put away many offenses by His life and death.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Where do the scriptures ever say Adam was man's Federal Head? This theory was completely unknown until the 17th century. And where does it say Adam ceased to be our Federal Head after his 1st sin? Nonsense.

Adam's sin did introduce the judgment of being "a sinner" and the condemnation, which is death. Jesus introduced the judgment of being "righteous" and the gift of eternal life. As I said, in law this is called "precedent".

Today we call everyone a sinner, but this is not the case in the scriptures, this judgment was for certain more serious sins. It is much like the word "felon" we use today.

Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Note that the scriptures themselves call this woman "a sinner". This is what Adam introduced, it is a legal judgment against a person, the sentence for this crime was death.

The scriptures say Jesus was "made" sin for us. Do you believe this is teaching that Jesus was made into a sinner with a sin nature?

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This scripture says Jesus was "made" sin for us. This does not mean he was metaphysically turned into some sort of evil being, but this is how Calvinism especially misinterprets Romans 5:19.

And we aren't made into some sort of perfect person when we trust Christ, but we are counted or "reckoned" as righteous. This is what Romans 5:19 is saying when it says by Adam's one disobedience many were "made sinners". It is saying sin imputed or counted to us.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If Hebrews 7 is taken literally, then we are not only guilty for Adam's first sin, but ALL of his sins. Likewise we would be guilty of ALL the sins of ALL our grandfather's throughout history. And not only that, we would also receive credit for their faith and righteous works, as Levi received credit for paying tithes to Melchisedec in his father Abraham's womb.

No, to the Jew, the father is always greater than the son. Abraham was Levi's grandfather and superior to him in Jewish thought. Therefore, when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec, it proved his priesthood was greater than Levi's. This scripture is not to be taken literally, but is a figure.

Otherwise, we are both guilty of all our grandfather's sins, and also receive credit for all our grandfather's righteousness. This interpretation is ridiculous to say the least. Ezekiel 18:20 says men die for their own sins, and that the son shall not bear the iniquities of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:20 proves your view error.

 

[Winman]

It's true because I wasn't there when Adam sinned and I wasn't in him, that was Eve, so I only sinned through him, he let satan in and the blood got polluted and everyone got the flesh nature and sinned themselves. When I was dead in my sins I was not in Jesus, I got saved through Jesus and then I was in Him, a new creature.

This is another false superstitious view that most Christians believe. Jesus was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh". If sin is inherited, then Jesus would have inherited sin from his mother Mary.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, he was made of the "fruit of his loins", he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us, he took on the "nature" of "the seed of Abraham" (not Adam) and was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things".

You inherit one half of your DNA from your mother, of which one half came from your grandfather. The most common name the Jews called Jesus was the "Son of David". If sin is inherited from our father, then Jesus would have inherited a sin nature. This is impossible, the scriptures say Jesus was "holy".

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

The Jews knew the Messiah would be a direct physical descendant of David, but many Christians continue to believe a medieval superstition.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Nobody sins "in Adam"….There is NO verse in all of scripture that says we sinned in Adam, you cannot possibly show it.

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he was specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

In the Old Testament, we read repeatedly that people are punished for the sins of their ancestors:

Exodus 20:5. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”

Exodus 34: 6. Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7. who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
8. Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship

Deut. 5:8. ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
9. ‘You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.’

Jer. 32:17. ‘Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,
18. who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. The LORD of hosts is His name;
19. great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds;’

Our sin in Adam was no exception.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Baloney, there is not one word about infants in Romans 5:13-14. This scripture is clearly speaking of MEN from Adam to Moses.

If it was speaking of infants, why stop at Moses?? Absurd.

Paul was NOT writing about adults; he used the Greek word for “human beings” of all ages:

Rom 5:12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾿ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον· -

He stopped at Moses because though Moses the Law was given and all human beings became culpable, not only for the sin that they committed in Adam, but also for their own sins.

 

[Winman]

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he was specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

In the Old Testament, we read repeatedly that people are punished for the sins of their ancestors:

Exodus 20:5. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”

Exodus 34: 6. Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7. who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
8. Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship

Deut. 5:8. ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
9. ‘You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.’

Jer. 32:17. ‘Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,
18. who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. The LORD of hosts is His name;
19. great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds;’

Our sin in Adam was no exception.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Romans 5:12 does not say that Adam's sin passed upon all men, it says DEATH passed upon all men, "for that all have sinned". Death passed on all men because all men have personally sinned.

Again, it is impossible that Paul is teaching Original Sin here, because he only speaks of men from Adam to Moses. If Paul was teaching that all men die because of Adam, then why would he stop at Moses?

Please answer that question, why did Paul stop at Moses if he is teaching Original Sin?

Besides that, Paul directly says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam. Original Sin teaches that we all sinned EXACTLY as Adam, that we all ate the forbidden fruit with Adam in the garden.

So, it is obvious that Paul cannot possibly be teaching Original Sin here.

It was Augustine who misinterpreted this passage because he used a flawed Latin text that read "in whom all sinned" which he assumed was Adam. This translation is flawed, nearly all Greek scholars agree that the Greek translates "because that all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" and that this verse is teaching that death passed upon all men for that all men have committed their own personal sin. This is HISTORICAL FACT.

God does not punish any man for the sin of another, every man dies for his own sin.

2 Chr 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God is not a hypocrite, God does not break his own laws. Men die for their own sin.

Romans 5 is simply showing that Adam introduced the penalty for sin, which is death. He is the legal precedent for those who followed in his footsteps and sinned as he did. These persons are judged or "made sinners" as Adam was, and condemned to death as Adam was.

Likewise, those who believe God to save them through Jesus are judged or "made righteous" and given the free gift of justification unto life as Jesus was.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Romans 5:12 does not say that Adam's sin passed upon all men, it says DEATH passed upon all men, "for that all have sinned". Death passed on all men because all men have personally sinned.

Again, it is impossible that Paul is teaching Original Sin here, because he only speaks of men from Adam to Moses. If Paul was teaching that all men die because of Adam, then why would he stop at Moses?

Please answer that question, why did Paul stop at Moses if he is teaching Original Sin?

Besides that, Paul directly says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam. Original Sin teaches that we all sinned EXACTLY as Adam, that we all ate the forbidden fruit with Adam in the garden.

So, it is obvious that Paul cannot possibly be teaching Original Sin here.

It was Augustine who misinterpreted this passage because he used a flawed Latin text that read "in whom all sinned" which he assumed was Adam. This translation is flawed, nearly all Greek scholars agree that the Greek translates "because that all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" and that this verse is teaching that death passed upon all men for that all men have committed their own personal sin. This is HISTORICAL FACT.

God does not punish any man for the sin of another, every man dies for his own sin.

2 Chr 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God is not a hypocrite, God does not break his own laws. Men die for their own sin.

Romans 5 is simply showing that Adam introduced the penalty for sin, which is death. He is the legal precedent for those who followed in his footsteps and sinned as he did. These persons are judged or "made sinners" as Adam was, and condemned to death as Adam was.

Likewise, those who believe God to save them through Jesus are judged or "made righteous" and given the free gift of justification unto life as Jesus was.

Please reply to the words that I wrote rather than what you apparently think that wrote.

 

[Messy]

This is another false superstitious view that most Christians believe. Jesus was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh". If sin is inherited, then Jesus would have inherited sin from his mother Mary.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, he was made of the "fruit of his loins", he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us, he took on the "nature" of "the seed of Abraham" (not Adam) and was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things".

You inherit one half of your DNA from your mother, of which one half came from your grandfather. The most common name the Jews called Jesus was the "Son of David". If sin is inherited from our father, then Jesus would have inherited a sin nature. This is impossible, the scriptures say Jesus was "holy".

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

The Jews knew the Messiah would be a direct physical descendant of David, but many Christians continue to believe a medieval superstition.

He had the blood from the Father. The soul of the flesh is in the blood.
The sin nature is in the blood and soul and spirit. If people didn't have a sin nature, why did we have to die with Christ?

 

[Winman]

Paul was NOT writing about adults; he used the Greek word for “human beings” of all ages:

Rom 5:12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾿ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον· -

He stopped at Moses because though Moses the Law was given and all human beings became culpable, not only for the sin that they committed in Adam, but also for their own sins.

That's pure nonsense. If Paul was teaching Original Sin in Romans 5, then it would extend to all men ever born, not men from Adam to Moses only. The Mosaic law would have no effect whatsoever on Original Sin.

Paul is not teaching that we all sinned with Adam, he directly says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Original Sin teaches that we all committed Adam's EXACT sin of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden.

Paul was simply proving that sin was in the world, even when there was no written law. All throughout the OT, men before Moses law were aware and knew what sin is, because the law is written on all men's hearts as Paul showed in Romans 2.

Gen 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

This verse was spoken at least 400 years before Moses and the law, yet Joseph knew it would be a sin to sleep with his master's wife.

This is all Paul is saying, that men from Adam to Moses spiritually died because they broke the law written on their hearts. Paul also directly said this in Romans 2.

Romans 5 is not speaking of physical death, but spiritual. All the terms are legal, such as condemnation, justification, offense, disobedience, etc...

Now read 1 Corinthians 15. Here Paul is speaking of physical death, he speaks of our bodies, flesh, seed, being planted, etc... These are all physical terms referring to physical death.

Romans 5 is speaking of being condemned as a sinner, it is speaking of spiritual death.

 

[Winman]

He had the blood from the Father. The soul of the flesh is in the blood.
The sin nature is in the blood and soul and spirit. If people didn't have a sin nature, why did we have to die with Christ?

God is a spirit, he does not have physical blood.

We are directly told that Jesus was made from the "fruit of David's loins", that he was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh". The Jews called Jesus the "son of David". Even the angel that spoke to Mary said David was Jesus's father.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

You can believe whatever you want, but it is nothing but superstition. The scriptures are clear that Jesus was made like unto his brethren the Jews in "all things".

The scriptures warn of those who deny Jesus came in the flesh, this is the spirit of antichrist.

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jhn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

You really should give this view some more consideration.

 

[Winman]

He had the blood from the Father. The soul of the flesh is in the blood.
The sin nature is in the blood and soul and spirit. If people didn't have a sin nature, why did we have to die with Christ?

Sinning does not prove a sin nature. Adam and Eve were created "very good" (Gen 1:31) yet they were able to sin.

Satan was "perfect" in all his ways in the day he was created (Eze 28:15), yet he was able to sin.

These verses clearly prove you do not have to have a sin nature to sin.

All that is required to sin is free will and a lack of faith in God.

 

[twin1954]

Winman, you still haven't answered my question as to why infants die according to you system.

 

[Winman]

Winman, you still haven't answered my question as to why infants die according to you system.

All men including infants die because God banned man from the tree of life.

Sin does not directly cause physical death, because Adam and Eve could have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Again, sin does not directly cause physical death, else why would God need to prevent Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life? They would have died anyway.

Isn't that so??

Even in heaven we will need to eat of the tree of life, and the scriptures imply there will be injury or illness, because the leaves of the tree of life are used for "healing".

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why will we need the leaves of the tree of life for "healing" in heaven?

This implies there might still be injury, germs and bacteria, but that eating of the tree of life heals us and keeps us from dying.

And we still eat in heaven, so we will never be self-sustaining as God is.

So, infants die because God banned man from the tree of life. This is actually a good thing, the fear of death is man's greatest incentive to come to God.

Babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin. It is like a drunk bus driver going off a cliff, all his passengers die as a consequence of his sin, but that does not make them guilty of his sin.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

That's pure nonsense. If Paul was teaching Original Sin in Romans 5, then it would extend to all men ever born, not men from Adam to Moses only. The Mosaic law would have no effect whatsoever on Original Sin.

Paul is teaching that all human beings have sinned in Adam, and he documents that fact by reminding his readers that between the sin of Adam and the giving of the Law through Moses, death reigned—even though sin is not imputed where there is no law. Once the Law was given, we became culpable, not only for our having sinned in Adam, but also for our own sins.

Paul is not teaching that we all sinned with Adam, he directly says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Original Sin teaches that we all committed Adam's EXACT sin of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden.

Paul is not teaching that every human being committed exactly the same sin in exactly the same way as Adam—but merely that they sinned in Adam. If they had not sinned in Adam, they would not have died until the Law had been given through Moses.

Paul was simply proving that sin was in the world, even when there was no written law. All throughout the OT, men before Moses law were aware and knew what sin is, because the law is written on all men's hearts as Paul showed in Romans 2.

No, Paul was proving that all human beings sinned in Adam and consequently died. They did not die for their own sins because sin is not imputed when there is no law. They died because they sinned in Adam.

Gen 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

This verse was spoken at least 400 years before Moses and the law, yet Joseph knew it would be a sin to sleep with his master's wife.

This is irrelevant because, according to Paul, had Joseph “sinned,” his sin would not have been imputed to him because it would have been committed before the giving of the Law.

This is all Paul is saying, that men from Adam to Moses spiritually died because they broke the law written on their hearts. Paul also directly said this in Romans 2.

No, Paul is saying this,

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul does NOT distinguish here between physical death and spiritual death.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

All men including infants die because God banned man from the tree of life.

Romans5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

[Bluelion]

Hey winman, welcome to the forum.

Seems you are drawing a lot of heat friend, i have been on that side of things with some in this this thread. It really is no fun when everyone starts piling on, and I hope i am not adding another pound to the hill already on you.

I do feel you are misunderstanding my friend.

In fact we are born into sin because of Adam. You had ask to show it. we agree the whole Bible is the word of God? Yes? so if we agree we are on the same page.

God said in Psalms 51:5 NLT

For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

let me post the full passage my friend because it clears up salvation.

Psalms 51 NLT

Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
2 Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.
3 For I recognize my rebellion;
it haunts me day and night.
4 Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.[a]
5 For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
6 But you desire honesty from the womb,
teaching me wisdom even there.
7 Purify me from my sins,[c] and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Oh, give me back my joy again;
you have broken me—
now let me rejoice.
9 Don’t keep looking at my sins.
Remove the stain of my guilt.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God.
Renew a loyal spirit within me.
11 Do not banish me from your presence,
and don’t take your Holy Spirit[d] from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you.
13 Then I will teach your ways to rebels,
and they will return to you.
14 Forgive me for shedding blood, O God who saves;
then I will joyfully sing of your forgiveness.
15 Unseal my lips, O Lord,
that my mouth may praise you.
16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one.
You do not want a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit.
You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.
18 Look with favor on Zion and help her;
rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then you will be pleased with sacrifices offered in the right spirit—
with burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings.
Then bulls will again be sacrificed on your altar.


So you see we are born in sin even in the womb, this is because Adam and eve made a choice for the whole human race. In fact we inherit the curses from that day, woman go through extreme pain during birth and man must work hard to eat and feed his family.

We did not inherit Adams sin after the fall, those were Adam and Eves. Adam was the representative for the human race. He could have eating from the tree of life, they did not, they sinned instead and ate from knowledge of good and evil. Now Humans have that Knowledge born with them. It was what Paul was speaking of when he said Gentiles new in there heart it was wrong to murder, because God's Law was on there heart before they ever heard it. They already new Good and evil.

If a person was not born with sin the fact Jesus was born without sin would be no big deal, but in fact it is. He could not ever have known sin. If we are all born with out sin we are all like Christ from birth. however this is not true, we are like Christ from our spirit rebirth, in that we have become without sin, the image of God, but not yet perfected because we do not have our perfect bodies.

So you see friend you get into shady water and take away from the Glory of Jesus when you deny the sin we are born into from Adam and Eve.

I think you need to search a little more for the truth in this friend.

prayed for you

Peace and Love
blu

 

[Winman]

Winman, you still haven't answered my question as to why infants die according to you system.

Yes, I have. All men INCLUDING INFANTS die because God banned man from the tree of life. This is several times I have answered you now.

 

[Winman]

Hey winman, welcome to the forum.

Seems you are drawing a lot of heat friend, i have been on that side of things with some in this this thread. It really is no fun when everyone starts piling on, and I hope i am not adding another pound to the hill already on you.

I do feel you are misunderstanding my friend.

In fact we are born into sin because of Adam. You had ask to show it. we agree the whole Bible is the word of God? Yes? so if we agree we are on the same page.

God said in Psalms 51:5 NLT

For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

let me post the full passage my friend because it clears up salvation.

Psalms 51 NLT

Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
2 Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.
3 For I recognize my rebellion;
it haunts me day and night.
4 Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.[a]
5 For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
6 But you desire honesty from the womb,
teaching me wisdom even there.
7 Purify me from my sins,[c] and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Oh, give me back my joy again;
you have broken me—
now let me rejoice.
9 Don’t keep looking at my sins.
Remove the stain of my guilt.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God.
Renew a loyal spirit within me.
11 Do not banish me from your presence,
and don’t take your Holy Spirit[d] from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you.
13 Then I will teach your ways to rebels,
and they will return to you.
14 Forgive me for shedding blood, O God who saves;
then I will joyfully sing of your forgiveness.
15 Unseal my lips, O Lord,
that my mouth may praise you.
16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one.
You do not want a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit.
You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.
18 Look with favor on Zion and help her;
rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then you will be pleased with sacrifices offered in the right spirit—
with burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings.
Then bulls will again be sacrificed on your altar.


So you see we are born in sin even in the womb, this is because Adam and eve made a choice for the whole human race. In fact we inherit the curses from that day, woman go through extreme pain during birth and man must work hard to eat and feed his family.

We did not inherit Adams sin after the fall, those were Adam and Eves. Adam was the representative for the human race. He could have eating from the tree of life, they did not, they sinned instead and ate from knowledge of good and evil. Now Humans have that Knowledge born with them. It was what Paul was speaking of when he said Gentiles new in there heart it was wrong to murder, because God's Law was on there heart before they ever heard it. They already new Good and evil.

If a person was not born with sin the fact Jesus was born without sin would be no big deal, but in fact it is. He could not ever have known sin. If we are all born with out sin we are all like Christ from birth. however this is not true, we are like Christ from our spirit rebirth, in that we have become without sin, the image of God, but not yet perfected because we do not have our perfect bodies.

So you see friend you get into shady water and take away from the Glory of Jesus when you deny the sin we are born into from Adam and Eve.

I think you need to search a little more for the truth in this friend.

prayed for you

Peace and Love
blu

Thanks Blu, I already know all the classic Calvinist proof texts. Psalm 51:5 is describing David's mother, not Davd, men do not conceive, only women conceive. David is saying "in sin did my mother conceive me". His mother was doing something wrong when David was conceived, but we are not told what.

We do know that David's family was ashamed of him for some reason. When the prophet Samuel came and asked Jesse to present all his sons to him, twice he failed to bring David. Only the third time when Samuel insisted did Jesse admit that he left David with the sheep. When he finally brought David, David was chosen by Samuel. We also know by this account that David did not look like his brothers who were all tall and handsome, whereas David was short, ruddy (red-headed) and not attractive to look at.

David was the "black-sheep" of the family and had always been treated poorly by his father and brothers. In his shame of committing adultery with Bathsheba, I believe David was just confirming what his family had probably always told him, that he was no good. But I cannot be 100% sure on this.

What I am 100% sure of is, David did not say all men are born sinners in Psalm 51:5, you have to read that into the text.