We Are Saved By Works

[DeaconDean]

You're thinking in error. There are many who never had the attitude they did not want to come to God. Don't project your failures on others. In God's providence, He is always working to bring man to Himself; this includes all men everywhere.

That being said, God failed miserably in the Old Testament era.

The whole of the "Torah" was directed solely at the Hebrews. If you were a Gentile, you were excluded from the blessings of God unless you "converted" to becoming a Hebrew.

I do not need to study Romans and Galatians in order to know what Jesus said. I have His own words to follow.

You really should, because had you done so, the standard you hold us to, both Peter and Paul failed at.

If you can't keep His commandments, then are none of His. You have delight in what is your own. Since you can't keep them now, then you are necessarily a liar. You are a false witness. Since you can't love God, why should I think you desire to do what He says?

To the best of my knowledge, Jesus took all the Decalogue and Torah, and boiled them down to two basic "Laws/Commandments". And sadly, nobody, not my friend, not me, not you can even do them.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Mt. 22:36-40 (KJV)

Listen to people long enough, and their true nature comes to light. They much rather love what is their own, rather than what is God's. Until you take up your own cross, deny yourself, and follow Him, you are not His; you are not worthy of Him.

And your better than any of us? You come in here, make snap judgments and then compare us to your standards.

Up until the day Christ died for us on the cross, all the commandments, all the Torah was in effect. But according to the book of Hebrews, even for Jewish Christians, that time has passed.

Not one single Christian since the cross, or even before was able to perform 100% what God asked. That is why we need Christ. And since the cross, not one single Christian has been able to perform everything God wants from a New Testament perspective.

Peter and Paul demonstrate why we are so in desperate need of God's grace.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

When you can and do love Him, come back and we'll talk.

Evasion. Apparently you can't answer a simple question concerning the Christ you claim to love and obey.

I do love Him but not nearly as I should. I do obey Him but not nearly as I should. I am still a sinner in constant need of the mercy and grace of God in Christ. One glorious day this corruption shal put on incurrption, this mortal shal lay down this body of death and shall put on immortality because Christ Jesus the Lord has done all in my roo and stead as my Lord and Savior. He is all that God requires and He is all that God accepts.

You need to learn what it means to find rest for your soul in Him.

 

[EmSw]

That being said, God failed miserably in the Old Testament era.

The whole of the "Torah" was directed solely at the Hebrews. If you were a Gentile, you were excluded from the blessings of God unless you "converted" to becoming a Hebrew.

The Ninevites say hello. Before you make another uninformed statement, you need to read Jonah. Ignorance is no excuse to think you know something.

You really should, because had you done so, the standard you hold us to, both Peter and Paul failed at.

Are you saying your failure is an excuse not to heed Jesus' own words?

To the best of my knowledge, Jesus took all the Decalogue and Torah, and boiled them down to two basic "Laws/Commandments". And sadly, nobody, not my friend, not me, not you can even do them.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Mt. 22:36-40 (KJV)

Why can I not love God? What kind of person are you? Just because you can't love God, doesn't mean there are those who can't. There are some of us who do love God and our neighbor.

It's a shame for one who calls himself a Christian admit he doesn't love God, he lies, he lusts after his neighbor's wife, he steals, he covets other people's things, and he murders. Why are you even here arguing for God, when you can't obey Him?

And your better than any of us? You come in here, make snap judgments and then compare us to your standards.

Let's not get personal, okay? If you desire to know what God says, then we can talk. I can tell you this though, I do not live by your standards of not keeping His commandments.

Up until the day Christ died for us on the cross, all the commandments, all the Torah was in effect. But according to the book of Hebrews, even for Jewish Christians, that time has passed.

Sadly, you do not know what God says.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Doesn't sound like they passed to me.

Not one single Christian since the cross, or even before was able to perform 100% what God asked. That is why we need Christ. And since the cross, not one single Christian has been able to perform everything God wants from a New Testament perspective.

Peter and Paul demonstrate why we are so in desperate need of God's grace.

And not one word from God about performing 100% of what He asks. Where do you get your beliefs? Is that what Protestants believe, especially Calvinists?

Does God's grace say to neglect His commandments? If you live the same now as you did before conversion by grace, I say grace is a failure. Do not know what grace teaches?[/QUOTE]

 

[EmSw]

Evasion. Apparently you can't answer a simple question concerning the Christ you claim to love and obey.

If you don't love God, I don't owe you an explanation on anything. People that hate God are only looking to do damage to those who do love Him.

I do love Him but not nearly as I should. I do obey Him but not nearly as I should. I am still a sinner in constant need of the mercy and grace of God in Christ. One glorious day this corruption shal put on incurrption, this mortal shal lay down this body of death and shall put on immortality because Christ Jesus the Lord has done all in my roo and stead as my Lord and Savior. He is all that God requires and He is all that God accepts.

You need to learn what it means to find rest for your soul in Him.

So now you say you do love Him. So you do have that ability, correct? So which is it, you love Him or do you not?

I did not say anything about being a sinner, nothing about needing mercy and grace, and nothing about any corruption.

What is all God requires? And who does God accept? Have you been given much?

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Do you know what working righteousness is? That is what God accepts.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.

 

[twin1954]

If you don't love God, I don't owe you an explanation on anything. People that hate God are only looking to do damage to those who do love Him.

So I am not worth the effort for you to explain to me an essential tenant of the Gospel. You claim to love your neighbor but hate me. Hmm. I am beginning to wonder if you even know the answer to my question. What did Chrst do? If you knew the answer it would go a long way to furthering this discussion. For it all hinges on and depends on what Christ Jesus the Lord did when He came into this world.

So now you say you do love Him. So you do have that ability, correct? So which is it, you love Him or do you not?

can one be a believer and not love Him? Your accusations are pointless. They accomplish nothing and do nothing to further the discussion.

I did not say anything about being a sinner, nothing about needing mercy and grace, and nothing about any corruption.

if you knew the Scriptures you would have recognized the Scripture passages in my statements. If you are not a sinner you have no need of the mercy of God in Christ Jesus the Lord. The whole need not a physician.

What is all God requires? And who does God accept? Have you been given much?

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Do you know what working righteousness is? That is what God accepts.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.

I have been given a Savior on whom I can rest my soul for He has accomplished all for me. He is what God requires and He is all that God accepts. He is enough for God and enough for me. He is my righteousness and my holiness. In Him alone are all the blessings of God. He is my rest, my Savior and my God. That is all I need to live in this world and the one beyond in eternal glory.

 

[EmSw]

So I am not worth the effort for you to explain to me an essential tenant of the Gospel.

As you say.

You claim to love your neighbor but hate me. Hmm.

You can stop your malicious 'Calvinist' tactics right now.

I am beginning to wonder if you even know the answer to my question. What did Chrst do? If you knew the answer it would go a long way to furthering this discussion. For it all hinges on and depends on what Christ Jesus the Lord did when He came into this world.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

can one be a believer and not love Him? Your accusations are pointless. They accomplish nothing and do nothing to further the discussion.

Then why do you claim people can't keep His commandments? Did you know the first commandment is to love Him?

if you knew the Scriptures you would have recognized the Scripture passages in my statements. If you are not a sinner you have no need of the mercy of God in Christ Jesus the Lord. The whole need not a physician.

Why don't you write on something I did say?

I have been given a Savior on whom I can rest my soul for He has accomplished all for me. He is what God requires and He is all that God accepts. He is enough for God and enough for me. He is my righteousness and my holiness. In Him alone are all the blessings of God. He is my rest, my Savior and my God. That is all I need to live in this world and the one beyond in eternal glory.

So the passage that says those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness is accepted by Him, just goes out the door for you?

 

[twin1954]

As you say.



You can stop your malicious 'Calvinist' tactics right now.



Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.



Then why do you claim people can't keep His commandments? Did you know the first commandment is to love Him?



Why don't you write on something I did say?



So the passage that says those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness is accepted by Him, just goes out the door for you?

All but your last statement doesn't even deserve a response. Apparently you do not need a Savior because you think you can work righteousness. My righteousness is Christ. He lived a perfect life in my place and has imputed that righteousness to me. I no longer need to work a righteousness of my own. Moreover no man except the God-man Christ Jesus the Lord is able to work righteousness on his own. The Jews couldn't do it and neither can you.

One thing has become crystal clear from our conversation. You need to learn what the Gospel is all about. He that hath ears to hear let him hear.

Would you like for me to tell you about Christ and His work? If not then I am done.

 

[Si_monfaith]

To repent from our sins means to turn from them. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Furthermore, it says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in Christ, then that should lead us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20).

So you want to go around saying, "Not I but I do godly works".

You are disobeying 1 cor 15:10.

 

[Soyeong]

So you want to go around saying, "Not I but I do godly works".

You are disobeying 1 cor 15:10.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

As far as I can tell, what Paul said in Titus 2:11-14 is perfectly consistent with what he said in 1 Corinthians 15:10.

 

[Si_monfaith]

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

As far as I can tell, what Paul said in Titus 2:11-14 is perfectly consistent with what he said in 1 Corinthians 15:10.

Grace does not instruct you to say,"Not grace but I did".

 

[Soyeong]

Grace does not instruct you to say,"Not grace but I did".

Where did I say that?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Where did I say that?

So repent and say, "Not I but grace works through me".

 

[Soyeong]

So repent and say, "Not I but grace works through me".

Repent of what?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Repent of what?

Repent from saying, "Not grace but I work".

 

[twin1954]

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed.

Anyone can obey God's Law as it should be, so it is not unfulfillable. Fulfilling the Law does not earn eternal life because it was not given for that purpose.

So how do you fulfill the Law? Which one have you have kept perfectly?

What you have actually done is destroy the Law by tearing down its righteousness. You have a very low view of the Law.

When you quit being a sinner you quit needing a Savior.

 

[DeaconDean]

So how do you fulfill the Law? Which one have you have kept perfectly?

What you have actually done is destroy the Law by tearing down its righteousness. You have a very low view of the Law.

When you quit being a sinner you quit needing a Savior.

That is quite right.

For all that God started in the "Law", Paul tells us that::

"the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (cf. Rom. 7:12) The writer of Hebrews also tells us that the "Law" had a fatal flaw:

"if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." -Heb. 8:7 (KJV)

No matter how well a person tried to keep the "Law" it only served to them how much they couldn't.

And in spite of it all, the "Law" could not, would not, "impute righteousness".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Soyeong]

So how do you fulfill the Law? Which one have you have kept perfectly?

What you have actually done is destroy the Law by tearing down its righteousness. You have a very low view of the Law.

When you quit being a sinner you quit needing a Savior.

I didn't say anything about obeying the Law perfectly. In Galatians 5:14, we fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor, so there are countless people have fulfilled the Law, including you and me, but there is only one who kept the Law perfectly. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, which lived in perfect obedience to the Law, so we do not become sinless when we accept Christ, but rather we are now being trained by grace to sin less until he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

The Law itself came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the requirement. There would be no point in repentance if we needed perfect obedience because it would already be too late, yet the consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus was to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to the Law, so imperfect obedience to the Law has a purpose, and the need to continue to practice repentance has always been key.

 

[Soyeong]

That is quite right.

For all that God started in the "Law", Paul tells us that::

"the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (cf. Rom. 7:12) The writer of Hebrews also tells us that the "Law" had a fatal flaw:

"if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." -Heb. 8:7 (KJV)

No matter how well a person tried to keep the "Law" it only served to them how much they couldn't.

And in spite of it all, the "Law" could not, would not, "impute righteousness".

God Bless

Till all are one.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His Law is not too difficult for His people to obey, and I believe Him, do you?

The Law does not impute righteousness primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place, so when it does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, then that can hardly be considered to be a flaw. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God imputed His righteousness to us and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. In other words, we have not received the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience. The problem that God found with the the first covenant was not with His righteousness or with His instructions for how to express His righteousness, but rather God found fault with the people for not obeying the covenant because of the hardness of their hearts.

 

[twin1954]

I didn't say anything about obeying the Law perfectly. In Galatians 5:14, we fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor, so there are countless people have fulfilled the Law, including you and me, but there is only one who kept the Law perfectly. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, which lived in perfect obedience to the Law, so we do not become sinless when we accept Christ, but rather we are now being trained by grace to sin less until he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

The Law itself came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the requirement. There would be no point in repentance if we needed perfect obedience because it would already be too late, yet the consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus was to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to the Law, so imperfect obedience to the Law has a purpose, and the need to continue to practice repentance has always been key.

You didn’t answer my questions. What you did was a red herring argument.

The Law demands perfect obedience. Nothing less will be accepted. In order to keep the Law you must do so perfectly. Nothing less will suffice. That is the whole purpose of the Law, it’s purpose is to show us that we can’t keep it.

I asked direct questions to which you responded with a red herring. Your argument fails on its own merits.

Do you need for me to give you a true understanding of the Gospel?

 

[twin1954]

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His Law is not too difficult for His people to obey, and I believe Him, do you?

The Law does not impute righteousness primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place, so when it does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, then that can hardly be considered to be a flaw. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God imputed His righteousness to us and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. In other words, we have not received the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience. The problem that God found with the the first covenant was not with His righteousness or with His instructions for how to express His righteousness, but rather God found fault with the people for not obeying the covenant because of the hardness of their hearts.

Wow what a twist of truth!


No what God found fault with was our inability to keep the requirements of the Law. We are all condemned as sinners. Your obedience to the Law is works religion. Christ Jesus alone is all our
righteousness before God.

Perhaps you need a basic theology lesson on the implications of the Gospel?