We Are Saved By Works

Soyeong

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You didn’t answer my questions. What you did was a red herring argument.

The Law demands perfect obedience. Nothing less will be accepted. In order to keep the Law you must do so perfectly. Nothing less will suffice. That is the whole purpose of the Law, it’s purpose is to show us that we can’t keep it.

I asked direct questions to which you responded with a red herring. Your argument fails on its own merits.

I did answer your questions. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so that is how we have fulfilled it. While countless people have fulfilled the Law, Christ is the only one has obeyed it perfectly, which means that I have not obeyed it perfectly.

Again, the Law never required perfect obedience and I've already demonstrated this to be the case. That has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of both the goal of the Law and of God's character because it makes God out to be interested in our outward performance when He has always been interested in our hearts. If were just about outward obedience, then God would not have always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him.

Nowhere does the Bible say that one of the purposes of the Law was to show us that we can't keep it, but rather in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that that His Law was not too difficult to obey, that obedience brings life and a blessing, that disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it presented as a choice and as a possibility. God is not some sort of tyrant or unloving Father who gave the Law in order to curse His children for failing to meet an impossible standard, but rather He is a loving Father who gave the Law for our own good in order to bless us and to teach us how to walk in His ways. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the curse is not for those who fail to have perfect obedience, but for those who chase after other gods. While everyone in the OT sinned and fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what was recorded about those who served God, but only those who chased after other gods.

Do you need for me to give you a true understanding of the Gospel?

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Insisting on the need for perfected obedience makes repentance pointless and completely undermines the Gospel of Christ.
 
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twin1954

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I did answer your questions. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so that is how we have fulfilled it. While countless people have fulfilled the Law, Christ is the only one has obeyed it perfectly, which means that I have not obeyed it perfectly.

Again, the Law never required perfect obedience and I've already demonstrated this to be the case. That has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of both the goal of the Law and of God's character because it makes God out to be interested in our outward performance when He has always been interested in our hearts. If were just about outward obedience, then God would not have always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him.

Nowhere does the Bible say that one of the purposes of the Law was to show us that we can't keep it, but rather in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that that His Law was not too difficult to obey, that obedience brings life and a blessing, that disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it presented as a choice and as a possibility. God is not some sort of tyrant or unloving Father who gave the Law in order to curse His children for failing to meet an impossible standard, but rather He is a loving Father who gave the Law for our own good in order to bless us and to teach us how to walk in His ways. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the curse is not for those who fail to have perfect obedience, but for those who chase after other gods. While everyone in the OT sinned and fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what was recorded about those who served God, but only those who chased after other gods.



Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Insisting on the need for perfected obedience makes repentance pointless and completely undermines the Gospel of Christ.
I will need some time to answer all your refusals to hear the truth of the Gospel. Your grasp of the Gospel of Christ is sorely lacking. You do not understand what He did nor how He did it.

Please give me time of to pray about it so that the Spirit will Give me the words that will overcome your teachings.
 
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DeaconDean

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In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His Law is not too difficult for His people to obey, and I believe Him, do you?

If you want to get right down to the nitty-and-gritty", please tell to whom was the "Law" addressed to?

The Law does not impute righteousness primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place, so when it does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, then that can hardly be considered to be a flaw.

In Deut. 4:13, we read:

"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone."

First off, in this verse we read that both the Decalogue and the Torah" are considered as one. Or do you believe that Moses went up on Mt. Sinai twice, one for the Decalogue and once more for the Torah.

Secondly, what we read in the New Testament, must agree with the Old Testament. In fact, the New Testament word where we get "righteous" comes from the Old Testament word.

This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”. Matter of fact, we are told:

"If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.” –Deut. 25:1 (KJV)

Judges can be influenced, bought, etc. However, God cannot.

“for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” –Gal. 2:21 (KJV) The Apostle Paul teaches us that the “Law” is “holy,” “just,” and “good.” (cf. Rom. 7:12) And it is, but the “Law” has a flaw, a fault:

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” –Heb. 8:7 (KJV)

The Law had promises for everything. If you sinned, the Law made provision for atonement. If you committed a crime, the Law had a provision for punishment. If you contracted Leprosy, the Law had a provision for that. If you wanted to convert to Judaism, the Law had a provision for that. But the one thing the Law absolutely could not do was to pronounce the sinner “righteous.” “For if righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

In the Old Testament, the name which the Messiah was foretold was:

“The Lord our Righteousness” (cf. Jer. 23:6). Daniel said that he should come here to

“make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,” –Dan. 9:24 (KJV

The prophet Isaiah said:[

“Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.” –Isa. 45:24-25 (KJV)

And speaking of the redeemed, he says:

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,” –Isa. 61:10 (KJV)

Being as since Christ is called “The Lord our Righteousness”, this indicates our righteousness must lie in something besides ourselves. The other point of the Law is that it demands a perfect obedience. Thus James states:

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” –Jas. 2:10 (KJV)

Strongly opposed to the doctrine that after salvation, works have real merit, is this verse:[

“whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” –Gal. 5:4 (KJV)

In Romans 4:6-8, we read:

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Here we see two things; God imputing righteousness, and God not imputing sins. These two things are never separate. Unto whom God imputes not sin, He imputes righteousness; likewise, unto whom He imputes righteousness, He imputes not sin. Now we may ask this question: Whose righteousness is it that God imputes, reckons, places to the account of the one who believes?

The answer quite simply is, that righteousness which was wrought out by our Surety, that obedience to the Law which was rendered by our Savior: “the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (cf. 2 Pet. 1:1). This righteousness was not only unto all, but “unto all that believe”. (cf. Rom. 3:22)

It is called “the righteousness of God” because it was the righteousness of the God-man Mediator, just as in Acts 20:28 his blood is called the blood of God.


When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God imputed His righteousness to us and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law.

And again, can you name one person, other than our Lord, who was/is able to do everything contained therein?

No, and you wont!


In other words, we have not received the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience. The problem that God found with the the first covenant was not with His righteousness or with His instructions for how to express His righteousness, but rather God found fault with the people for not obeying the covenant because of the hardness of their hearts.

That isn't what Paul said.

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound." -Rom. 5:20 (KJV)

You still wrong. Even though "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good", man even at their best attempts, could not do all that the Law required. Period.

When Jesus took all 613 "Laws" and boiled them down into two:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mt. 22:37-40 (KJV)

And sadly, we can't even do these two things today. Let alone the 5000 years prior to the Advent of Christ.

The point is, the Law/Decalogue was always considered the first covenant. That "covenant" is now done away. We are under a new covenant, established on better promises.

Sorry, we'll just have to disagree.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Danthemailman

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Works of man play no role in the salvation process. You are confusing cause and effect. Faith produces works as a fruit not as a cause. We are justified in our claim of faith when we have the fruit of works. That is what James is teaching.
Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
 
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twin1954

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Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Very correct as long as fruit isn’t looked to as a proof of faith. That is legalism. I am convinced that God’s people don’t even realize what their fruit is. Matt. 25:34-40.
 
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