We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[lahdeedah]

So if someone attacks your family you wouldn't stop him? Or even restrain him for fear of hurting him?

p.s. why are you making generalizations about churches? have you been to them all? Do you know what my church teaches? Do you even know if I go to church? I'll be sure if I go to church sometime though to let the pastor know that he is host to a gateway of spiritual impotence and destruction, or at least so says the guy who knows absolutely nothing about the church at all.

Oh, the old "someone attacking my family" argument. If I had a nickel for everytime I've heard that. Sigh... Those who throw that argument are those who lack faith.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Oh, the old "someone attacking my family" argument. If I had a nickel for everytime I've heard that. Sigh... Those who throw that argument are those who lack faith.

nice, another generalization.

You don't know me. I don't know you. Yet you have the audacity to accuse me of something on which you have no idea. If you need to know more about 'accusers' then check the bible

I presented a very possible situation to see how you feel about it.

Do you realize as the head of a family that you are responsible for taking care of that family? And there are times when you have to defend them. I don't know what fairy tale world you live in, but in this one people get shot and killed over bus fare.

 

[itsfinished]

Oh, the old "someone attacking my family" argument. If I had a nickel for everytime I've heard that. Sigh... Those who throw that argument are those who lack faith.

oh it's not an argument. It's the truth. Didn't you know? Jesus told us that unless we defend the helpless with whatever means we have at our disposal we won't see the kingdom of heaven.

 

[itsfinished]

nice, another generalization.

You don't know me. I don't know you. Yet you have the audacity to accuse me of something on which you have no idea. If you need to know more about 'accusers' then check the bible

I presented a very possible situation to see how you feel about it.

Do you realize as the head of a family that you are responsible for taking care of that family? And there are times when you have to defend them. I don't know what fairy tale world you live in, but in this one people get shot and killed over bus fare.

Man is the head of the household. Who is the head of man?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Man is the head of the household. Who is the head of man?

God of course.

Exd 22:2 “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed

1Ti 5:8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[lahdeedah]

If we have to disobey Jesus in order to provide for our family, then we have a serious problem. Would you also steal in order to provide for them?? Why do you love your life so much?? Do you fear death??

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

If we have to disobey Jesus in order to provide for our family, then we have a serious problem.

how does defending your family disobey Jesus?

Would you also steal in order to provide for them??

Did Jesus' disciples gather food on the sabbath?

Why do you love your life so much??

Never said that I did.

Do you fear death??

Not really. Do you have children?

 

[lahdeedah]

The first two sentences of your post tell me all that I need to know. Thanks for your time.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The first two sentences of your post tell me all that I need to know. Thanks for your time.

thanks for wasting mine, instead of answering the questions I asked you in return. It's understandable since your basing your complete pacifism on a few out of context passages.

 

[sidnee]

ok, I dont get it. You can make generalizations about the whole defending your family thing but its still true. The thing that amazes me is that in the name of being "godly" you wouldnt take the time to defend a child being beaten? Hmmm...what was that Jesus said about it being better to have a milstone tied to your neck Seriously, do you think that being humble requires that you have no backbone? If we cant stand up against wrong and, when needed, defend what we believe and those we care about then what the heck will this world come to. I seriously dont get how you can think its Christlike at all to stand by and let someone rape your own wife and not attempt to defend her......im not the brightest crayon in the box but even I know Jesus wouldnt do that

 

[Zecryphon]

If I love someone, how will I kill them? I've never had anyone explain that to me. I'm pretty sure no one will ever be able to do it.

An example of Lahdeedah's love for those who disagree with him.

Those who believe it is okay to take a life or hurt someone don't know God. What gives anyone the right to decide who should live and who should die? Most of you have learned about your god in the modern religious gathering places that you like to call churches. The churches that you attend are gateways to spiritual impotence and destruction. Don't soil your garments stepping into these cesspools of hypocrisy. Get out of them if you are still able to hear the voice of God. GET OUT!!!

You can just feel the love, can't ya?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

ok, I dont get it. You can make generalizations about the whole defending your family thing but its still true. The thing that amazes me is that in the name of being "godly" you wouldnt take the time to defend a child being beaten? Hmmm...what was that Jesus said about it being better to have a milstone tied to your neck Seriously, do you think that being humble requires that you have no backbone? If we cant stand up against wrong and, when needed, defend what we believe and those we care about then what the heck will this world come to. I seriously dont get how you can think its Christlike at all to stand by and let someone rape your own wife and not attempt to defend her......im not the brightest crayon in the box but even I know Jesus wouldnt do that

[bible]Exodus 22:2[/bible]
1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

It's ridiculous, and the only defense against the passages I listed are that "jesus completed the law".
Which brings me to this passage: 2timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
To say that the OT is irrelevant in regards to living a christian life is ludicrous and misguided.

 

[Zecryphon]

[bible]Exodus 22:2[/bible]
1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

It's ridiculous, and the only defense against the passages I listed are that "jesus completed the law".
Which brings me to this passage: 2timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
To say that the OT is irrelevant in regards to living a christian life is ludicrous and misguided.

Jet, I thought you and everybody else in this thread would appreciate this. It's today's devotional from Faith Alone by Martin Luther, edited by James C. Galvin and published by Zondervan. I thnk we'll all see how this devotional is relevant to this discussion.

DON'T PUT GOD TO THE TEST​

Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

If we don't use the resources available to us but instead want other resources we don't have, then we're testing God. This is what Satan wanted Christ to do. Satan told Jesus to throw himself from the temple when there were steps he could have used to climb down. Someone who doesn't wear proper clothing in cold weather but expects God to miraculously keep him from freezing is also testing God. This is like the Jewish leaders who ignored the signs they had been given and waited for a different one from heaven. In the same way, people who sleep when they should be working are testing God. Because God promised to take care of them, they assume that God will find a way. But in Proverbs, God told them to work: "Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring weath" (Proverbs 10:4).​

God's work is accomplished when we use the resources given to us. He wants us to use our resources but not put our trust in them. While it's true that hardworking hands bring wealth, it's also true that only the Lord's blessing brings it. As Solomon said, "the blessing of the LORD brings wealth" (Proverbs 10:22). When people use weapons to defend themselves, God is still delivering them. Without God's help, people who attempt to deliver themselves will fail. As David said, "I do not trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; but you give us victory over our enemies" (Psalm 44:6-7). God will use weapons to deliver people if weapons are available, but he can still deliver people even if they aren't available. Therefore, we should make use of what we have but not rely on those things. We must trust in God alone, whether we have the resources we need or not.​

Scripture References:​

Pro 10:4 A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich. ​

Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it. ​

Psa 44:6 For not in my bow do I trust, nor can my sword save me. Psa 44:7 But you have saved us from our foes and have put to shame those who hate us. ​

All scripture taken from the English Standard Version.​

 

[Giver]

Jet, I thought you and everybody else in this thread would appreciate this. It's today's devotional from Faith Alone by Martin Luther, edited by James C. Galvin and published by Zondervan. I thnk we'll all see how this devotional is relevant to this discussion.

DON'T PUT GOD TO THE TEST​

Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

If we don't use the resources available to us but instead want other resources we don't have, then we're testing God. This is what Satan wanted Christ to do. Satan told Jesus to throw himself from the temple when there were steps he could have used to climb down. Someone who doesn't wear proper clothing in cold weather but expects God to miraculously keep him from freezing is also testing God. This is like the Jewish leaders who ignored the signs they had been given and waited for a different one from heaven. In the same way, people who sleep when they should be working are testing God. Because God promised to take care of them, they assume that God will find a way. But in Proverbs, God told them to work: "Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring weath" (Proverbs 10:4).​

God's work is accomplished when we use the resources given to us. He wants us to use our resources but not put our trust in them. While it's true that hardworking hands bring wealth, it's also true that only the Lord's blessing brings it. As Solomon said, "the blessing of the LORD brings wealth" (Proverbs 10:22). When people use weapons to defend themselves, God is still delivering them. Without God's help, people who attempt to deliver themselves will fail. As David said, "I do not trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; but you give us victory over our enemies" (Psalm 44:6-7). God will use weapons to deliver people if weapons are available, but he can still deliver people even if they aren't available. Therefore, we should make use of what we have but not rely on those things. We must trust in God alone, whether we have the resources we need or not.​

Scripture References:​

Pro 10:4 A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich. ​

Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it. ​

Psa 44:6 For not in my bow do I trust, nor can my sword save me. Psa 44:7 But you have saved us from our foes and have put to shame those who hate us. ​

All scripture taken from the English Standard Version.​

I suppose because Martin Luther thought something that it is what God wants? How do you think the Church got away from living the Word of God? People like Martin Luther started watering down God’s Word with human reasoning. Remember what Jesus said to Peter when he started using human reasoning. (Matthew 16: 25) “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because the way you think is not God’s way but man’s”

When people start learning from man and not Jesus/Holy Spirit they come up with, what they believe, is sound reasoning to disobey God’s Word. Jesus said:(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

The people, who don’t have enough faith and trust in God to live the Word of God, need to think of reasons to feel justified when they can’t. Those who can’t come up with reasons, look to theologians who can come up with reason for them.

 

[Zecryphon]

I suppose because Martin Luther thought something that it is what God wants? How do you think the Church got away from living the Word of God? People like Martin Luther started watering down God’s Word with human reasoning. Remember what Jesus said to Peter when he started using human reasoning. (Matthew 16: 25) “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because the way you think is not God’s way but man’s”

When people start learning from man and not Jesus/Holy Spirit they come up with, what they believe, is sound reasoning to disobey God’s Word. Jesus said:(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

The people, who don’t have enough faith and trust in God to live the Word of God, need to think of reasons to feel justified when they can’t. Those who can’t come up with reasons, look to theologians who can come up with reason for them.

"I suppose because Martin Luther thought something that it is what God wants?"

The same question can be asked of you as well. I believe Martin Luther was led by the Holy Spirit to challenge the RCC on what it was teaching at the time and get back to the scriptures. What makes you any more authoritative than him? You're both led by the Holy Spirit, right? So why should we believe you over him? Or believe you over God? You're both preaching and teaching the word of God. So, what's the difference Giver? Do tell us.

"How do you think the Church got away from living the Word of God? People like Martin Luther started watering down God’s Word with human reasoning."

Um, perhaps you're not aware of this, but Luther is one of the reformers who actually put the word of God into the hands of the German people, so they could read the word of God for themselves and not rely solely upon what the priests of the Catholic church were telling them. But since you think he's responsible for watering down the word of God, prove it.

"Remember what Jesus said to Peter when he started using human reasoning. (Matthew 16: 25) “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because the way you think is not God’s way but man’s”"

You just won't admit that you're testing God will you? Obviously not. Tell us, do you go outside without a coat and expect God to keep you warm? You do, don't you?

"When people start learning from man and not Jesus/Holy Spirit they come up with, what they believe, is sound reasoning to disobey God’s Word. Jesus said:(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”"

Jesus also told us not to test God and to protect the innocent. But you've reasoned your way around those commandments. Don't think you're wholly right here and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong. You have yet to prove that what Luther is saying is false. You haven't addressed any of what he has said or the scripture he used. You have instead done what you always do, attack the person, instead of addressing the argument put forth.

"The people, who don’t have enough faith and trust in God to live the Word of God, need to think of reasons to feel justified when they can’t."

You are not the judge of people and the amount of faith they have in God. Why do you continually make these judgments about people who disagree with you? Is that what God told you to do? The people who expect God to do everything for them are testing God. God has given you the means to protect yourself and those He has put in your care, and you refuse to do so, because you've reasoned yourself into thinking that by doing so, you will be disobeying God.

David, was as warrior king with plenty of blood on his hands, and he was called a man after God's own heart.

"Those who can’t come up with reasons, look to theologians who can come up with reason for them."

More flames and avoidance of the issue at hand. We're not to come up with reasons for disobeying God Giver, I thought that was your point. Those who disagree with you look instead to God, as Luther looked to God and as David looked to God. We don't look to you, as you are human and can err.

You refuse to address anything Luther said or admit that you are testing God, and do what you always do and attack the person instead of showing why their teaching is not in line with scripture.

 

[Giver]

The same question can be asked of you as well. I believe Martin Luther was led by the Holy Spirit to challenge the RCC on what it was teaching at the time and get back to the scriptures. What makes you any more authoritative than him? You're both led by the Holy Spirit, right? So why should we believe you over him? Or believe you over God? You're both preaching and teaching the word of God. So, what's the difference Giver? Do tell us.



Um, perhaps you're not aware of this, but Luther is one of the reformers who actually put the word of God into the hands of the German people, so they could read the word of God for themselves and not rely solely upon what the priests of the Catholic church were telling them. But since you think he's responsible for watering down the word of God, prove it.
Did Luther teach this? (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

The people, who don’t have enough faith and trust in God to live the Word of God, need to think of reasons to feel justified when they can’t. Those who can’t come up with reasons, look to theologians who can come up with reason for them.





You just won't admit that you're testing God will you? Obviously not. Tell us, do you go outside without a coat and expect God to keep you warm? You do, don't you?

"When people start learning from man and not Jesus/Holy Spirit they come up with, what they believe, is sound reasoning to disobey God’s Word. Jesus said:(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”"

Jesus also told us not to test God and to protect the innocent. But you've reasoned your way around those commandments. Don't think you're wholly right here and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong. You have yet to prove that what Luther is saying is false. You haven't addressed any of what he has said or the scripture he used. You have instead done what you always do, attack the person, instead of addressing the argument put forth.



You are not the judge of people and the amount of faith they have in God. Why do you continually make these judgments about people who disagree with you? Is that what God told you to do? The people who expect God to do everything for them are testing God. God has given you the means to protect yourself and those He has put in your care, and you refuse to do so, because you've reasoned yourself into thinking that by doing so, you will be disobeying God.

David, was as warrior king with plenty of blood on his hands, and he was called a man after God's own heart.
Yes he was, but can’t you see that God came and taught us that he no longer wanted us to do thing that way. Do you knew that way back in the Old Testament Jesus didn’t let David build the temple, because he had too much blood on his hands?



More flames and avoidance of the issue at hand. We're not to come up with reasons for disobeying God Giver, I thought that was your point. Those who disagree with you look instead to God, as Luther looked to God and as David looked to God. We don't look to you, as you are human and can err.

You refuse to address anything Luther said or admit that you are testing God, and do what you always do and attack the person instead of showing why their teaching is not in line with scripture.

I would not answer any thing Luther wrote. I would never read anything he wrote, for two reasons. First I don’t believe he was a man of God. Next When I asked Jesus what seminary to attend he told me “NO! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me.”

 

[Rick Otto]

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

I just want to spank people for thinking like this.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I would not answer any thing Luther wrote. I would never read anything he wrote, for two reasons. First I don’t believe he was a man of God. Next When I asked Jesus what seminary to attend he told me “NO! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me.”

Since Jesus told you not to read about Him, have you tossed out your bible yet? If not, send it to me, I know someone who could make good use of it.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I would not answer any thing Luther wrote. I would never read anything he wrote, for two reasons. First I don’t believe he was a man of God. Next When I asked Jesus what seminary to attend he told me “NO! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me.”

When i first read this honestly I was thinking "Oh no not the old Jesus told me to do this and that" line, but after reading it over a few times, I think its very likely that He might have told you that.

Grace be to God for keeping such heresy apart from ordained ministry.

 

[Giver]

Since Jesus told you not to read about Him, have you tossed out your bible yet? If not, send it to me, I know someone who could make good use of it.

Thirty years ago Jesus told me to get more into the Word. I told him that I was into the Word. Meaning I was into him. He told me also the Written Word.