We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Soul Searcher]

Oh and need I point out that it refers to a sin against you, not a sin against God. That is Gods to judge and Gods to forgive or punish not ours.

 

[VCViking]

Did you bother to read what you posted.. If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault... hmm this is not at alll what I was refering to. It also says elsewhere in Matthew that we are to forgive them for the tresspass and elsewhere it says that we are to forgive and forgive and forgive, ....

I also find the note about tax collector to be very interesting seeing as how the book in question is said to have been written by a tax collertor that is held in very high esteem as a servant of God.. Somehow coming from him that does not make any sense.

And of course it says judge not, it seems to me the jist of the passage is that if someone is doing you wrong you should try to help them understand that they are doing so. Not judge them, but educate them so to speak.

Elsewhere we also see that when we judge we are to use righteous judgment? Can a man preform a righteous judgment who is himself not righteous? Can a man accurately judge the motives of another if he can not see into his heart?

When we get down to it what we have are some verses saying that we should not judge others and some that say we should. Judge not comes from Jesus, Judge comes from Paul. It seems that many Christains like to judge others and prefer Pauls version over that of Jesus. That does not make it right.

When taken in its whole context, it is hypocritical judgement that we are to refrain from. God judges the world, we are to one another as God's Word (what christians call the Bible) commands:


2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[VCViking]

We are commanded to judge others within the church body. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Also see Matthew 18:15-20, that deals with church discipline.

Mat 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.Mat 18:16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.Mat 18:17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.Mat 18:18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Mat 18:19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.Mat 18:20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

How can we as a church body carry out church discipline if we cannot first judge someone to determine whether they have sinned or not?

Exactly.

 

[VCViking]

.. I assume you are talking about one of the books called the bible.

Why do so many so called christains find a need to judge others in such ways? Do they not know that the person they judge today may be the one who sets in judgment of them tomorrow?

What are you referring?

 

[Soul Searcher]

When taken in its whole context, it is hypocritical judgement that we are to refrain from. God judges the world, we are to one another as God's Word (what christians call the Bible) commands:


2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I agree but people tend to redifine hypocritical as it suits them just as they seem to do with most words in the bible.

One of the biggies nowadays is same sex relationships, many Christains love to judge and condemn this yet many of those who are judging if not all of them have also broken sexual conduct laws and many continue to do so on a daily basis. However they do not see this as being hypocritical. In the truest sense of the word anyone with sin who judges another unfavorably with sin is a hypocrite. As Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone and no one could cast a stone.

Edit to add: We also commonly see that the judgment which is so common is not used for correction nor reproof but as an excuse to look down on others as though we are better than they are even though all of us have our own sins we should be dealing with instead. I have seen it far to many times in my years. It is hard to put it into words and those who do it do not see but it is a very large problem within the church and it's followers.

And of course when one uses scripture to try and show someone how this is wrong they always come up with a verse or two that says we are to judge and almost never see that what they are doing is both wrong and hurtful to other people and benifits no one save maybe thier own ego.

 

[mont974x4]

In 1 Cor 5 Paul is holding a man accountable for a sin that was not done against him personally.


I have repented and been forgiven of my sexual sin. My log has been removed so I can see the speck more clearly to help my brother.

 

[VCViking]

One of the biggies nowadays is same sex relationships, many Christains love to judge and condemn this yet many of those who are judging if not all of them have also broken sexual conduct laws and many continue to do so on a daily basis. However they do not see this as being hypocritical. In the truest sense of the word anyone with sin who judges another unfavorably with sin is a hypocrite. As Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone and no one could cast a stone.

If they are not saved, God will be their judge. If they are christians and engaging in sex before marriage, gay or not, they are to be corrected as the scriptures state.

Just because someone has had sex outside of marriage in their past does not disqualify them to judge and correct a fellow christian. If I am actively engaging in that sin and then judge that person for that same sin, then that is wrong and that is what Jesus was referring to with casting the first stone. They group only brought the woman before Jesus, but where was her accomplice? Jesus knew their hearts and their sins. The same sins that they were condemning her for.

But above all thing, judgment is to be done with LOVE, not hatred, pride or arrogance. But it is to be done amongst believers.

 

[Soul Searcher]

In 1 Cor 5 Paul is holding a man accountable for a sin that was not done against him personally.


I have repented and been forgiven of my sexual sin. My log has been removed so I can see the speck more clearly to help my brother.

Really? hmm... You do know that when you are with a woman for the first time it is though you are married to her and if you leave her and marry another you are guilty of adultry according to scripture. In fact in you even think about and desire anyone other than your first scripture indicates that you are guilty, and then once you have done this if you leave the second woman then you cause her to commit adultry also right?

I am guilty of this and continue to be as I am married to a woman who is not my first nor was I hers, Yet to leave her would be a sin also so no matter what I do I have this sin that can be removed only by God and it is not my place to judge others of that which I too am guilty.

 

[VCViking]

In 1 Cor 5 Paul is holding a man accountable for a sin that was not done against him personally.


I have repented and been forgiven of my sexual sin. My log has been removed so I can see the speck more clearly to help my brother.

Well stated.

 

[VCViking]

Really? hmm... You do know that when you are with a woman for the first time it is though you are married to her and if you leave her and marry another you are guilty of adultry according to scripture. In fact in you even think about and desire anyone other than your first scripture indicates that you are guilty, and then once you have done this if you leave the second woman then you cause her to commit adultry also right?

I am guilty of this and continue to be as I am married to a woman who is not my first nor was I hers, Yet to leave her would be a sin also so no matter what I do I have this sin that can be removed only by God and it is not my place to judge others of that which I too am guilty.

That view would be legalistic and against scripture. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, that us why we are new creations in Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Really? hmm... You do know that when you are with a woman for the first time it is though you are married to her and if you leave her and marry another you are guilty of adultry according to scripture. In fact in you even think about and desire anyone other than your first scripture indicates that you are guilty, and then once you have done this if you leave the second woman then you cause her to commit adultry also right?

I am guilty of this and continue to be as I am married to a woman who is not my first nor was I hers, Yet to leave her would be a sin also so no matter what I do I have this sin that can be removed only by God and it is not my place to judge others of that which I too am guilty.

I don't live in guilt, fear and condemnation for past sins. They have been placed as far as the East is from the West.




I like your idea. It sounds perfectly good to want that kind of peace and love. However, in light of Scripture, you are wrong and it is a false peace and not real love.

 

[Zecryphon]

Did you bother to read what you posted.. If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault... hmm this is not at alll what I was refering to. It also says elsewhere in Matthew that we are to forgive them for the tresspass and elsewhere it says that we are to forgive and forgive and forgive, ....

I also find the note about tax collector to be very interesting seeing as how the book in question is said to have been written by a tax collertor that is held in very high esteem as a servant of God.. Somehow coming from him that does not make any sense.

And of course it says judge not, it seems to me the jist of the passage is that if someone is doing you wrong you should try to help them understand that they are doing so. Not judge them, but educate them so to speak.

Elsewhere we also see that when we judge we are to use righteous judgment? Can a man preform a righteous judgment who is himself not righteous? Can a man accurately judge the motives of another if he can not see into his heart?

When we get down to it what we have are some verses saying that we should not judge others and some that say we should. Judge not comes from Jesus, Judge comes from Paul. It seems that many Christains like to judge others and prefer Pauls version over that of Jesus. That does not make it right.

"Did you bother to read what you posted.. If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault... hmm this is not at alll what I was refering to. It also says elsewhere in Matthew that we are to forgive them for the tresspass and elsewhere it says that we are to forgive and forgive and forgive, ...."


You said we are not to judge other Christians. I was pointing out to you that in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 we are told to do what you say we must not do. Did you bother to read those verses? I then used the verses in Matthew 18 as a basis to get you to examine your position on this whole issue of not judging people. If what you say is true, and we are not to judge anyone, how do we know if someone has sinned against us? Don't we have to judge their actions before we can make that determination?

"I also find the note about tax collector to be very interesting seeing as how the book in question is said to have been written by a tax collertor that is held in very high esteem as a servant of God.. Somehow coming from him that does not make any sense."

What doesn't make sense?

"And of course it says judge not, it seems to me the jist of the passage is that if someone is doing you wrong you should try to help them understand that they are doing so. Not judge them, but educate them so to speak."

But how can you know that they are doing you wrong if you cannot first judge them or their actions?

"Elsewhere we also see that when we judge we are to use righteous judgment? Can a man preform a righteous judgment who is himself not righteous?"

If he is in Christ I believe he can, because if he is in Christ, he is righteous. If he is not in Christ, then you would be correct.

"Can a man accurately judge the motives of another if he can not see into his heart?"

If a man were relying upon himself for that information, then no, but if he asked God to reveal it to him, I believe the information could be trusted, granted that God reveals it to him.

"When we get down to it what we have are some verses saying that we should not judge others and some that say we should. Judge not comes from Jesus, Judge comes from Paul. It seems that many Christains like to judge others and prefer Pauls version over that of Jesus. That does not make it right."

Why do you differentiate between Jesus and Paul? Where did Paul get his revelation of Christ from? It was Jesus, wasn't it? The "do not judge, lest you be judged" verses address hypocrisy, not judgment of others.

 

[Soul Searcher]

That view would be legalistic and against scripture. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, that us why we are new creations in Christ.

LOL I see.. so then it is not possibel for a Christain to be a hypocrite because thier sins have been paid for by the senseless execution of an innocent man? That allows you to sin and then condemn others for sin. hmmm. Interesting.... totally wrong but interesting.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I don't live in guilt, fear and condemnation for past sins. They have been placed as far as the East is from the West.

I do not live in fear, guilt nor condemnation either. I also do not condemn others for such things no matter what faith they claim to have or not to have. It simply is not my place to do so.

I like your idea. It sounds perfectly good to want that kind of peace and love. However, in light of Scripture, you are wrong and it is a false peace and not real love.

I'm glad you like it though I am not sure what you are talking about when you say it is a false peace and not real love? There is no love in condemning others, there is no peace in causing pain that has no benifit beyond stroking ones own ego or sense of morality. What is false about it?

 

[mont974x4]

I do not live in fear, guilt nor condemnation either. I also do not condemn others for such things no matter what faith they claim to have or not to have. It simply is not my place to do so.

I'm glad you like it though I am not sure what you are talking about when you say it is a false peace and not real love? There is no love in condemning others, there is no peace in causing pain that has no benifit beyond stroking ones own ego or sense of morality. What is false about it?

You clearly misunderstand the ideal behind holding people accountable. Real love does not allow people to continue in sin and godly discipline, enacted by other people, leads to true peace.

nasb

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
Heb 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.


You ignore what the Bible says about us holding eachother accountable and church discipline.




The old "can't we just get along" line on tolerance is a path to destruction. Relativism is a dangerous thing.

There is real truth in Scripture. There is real discipline and accountability based on His standards.

 

[Zecryphon]

You clearly misunderstand the ideal behind holding people accountable. Real love does not allow people to continue in sin and godly discipline, enacted by other people, leads to true peace.

nasb

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
Heb 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.


You ignore what the Bible says about us holding eachother accountable and church discipline.




The old "can't we just get along" line on tolerance is a path to destruction. Relativism is a dangerous thing.

There is real truth in Scripture. There is real discipline and accountability based on His standards.

You forgot the real danger that lies within the old standby line "but that's just your interpretation". LOL

 

[mont974x4]

You forgot the real danger that lies within the old standby line "but that's just your interpretation". LOL

That's OK, there's always the old "My church has taught for xyz years that and everyone agrees....." line to fall back on if need be.

 

[Zecryphon]

That's OK, there's always the old "My church has taught for xyz years that and everyone agrees....." line to fall back on if need be.

This is most certainly true.

 

[Soul Searcher]

You said we are not to judge other Christians. I was pointing out to you that in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 we are told to do what you say we must not do. Did you bother to read those verses? I then used the verses in Matthew 18 as a basis to get you to examine your position on this whole issue of not judging people. If what you say is true, and we are not to judge anyone, how do we know if someone has sinned against us? Don't we have to judge their actions before we can make that determination?

First of all I did not say we are not to judge other Christians, I said we are not to judge others. Secondly as I said before judge is a broad term that can apply in many different ways. In some ways ok and in other ways not ok and it does nto matter in the least wether the person claims to be Christain or not.

What doesn't make sense?

The fact that the implication is a bad thing to be viewed as a tax collector supposedly written by a tax collector who is held in high esteem. I thought it was clear.

But how can you know that they are doing you wrong if you cannot first judge them or their actions?

Again broad usage of judge, perhaps I should say that we are not to condemn anyone, not to hold it against them, the problem is that people judge others in such a way as to look down on them and falsely lift themselves up above them.

If he is in Christ I believe he can, because if he is in Christ, he is righteous. If he is not in Christ, then you would be correct.

Nonsense.. being a believer in no way makes anyone righteous and those who believe they are and that they are entitled to judge others are the root of the problem. They come across as believing they are better than others because of what they believe and they are totally 100% wrong to do so.

If a man were relying upon himself for that information, then no, but if he asked God to reveal it to him, I believe the information could be trusted, granted that God reveals it to him.

So if the man believes God told him so it is ok even if he is wrong, no matter what you may think we are relying on our own understanding of whatever the events are no matter what voices or directions we think we may be getting or not getting from beyond.

Why do you differentiate between Jesus and Paul? Where did Paul get his revelation of Christ from? It was Jesus, wasn't it? The "do not judge, lest you be judged" verses address hypocrisy, not judgment of others.

Because they are two different people and they taught different things even though many can not see it. No one knows where Paul got his ideas from all we have is what he said about it and if what he said is true then that alone destroys much of the common Christain dogma but that is another issue altogether.

And yes those verses are talking about judging others especially when we judge them differently than we judge ourselves and even moreso when we condemn them for things that we would want to be forgiven for if we were the guilty party.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

The written Word of God tells us the same thing.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Do you mean not by word or deed?