We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[GenemZ]

As I said before there is no point in even trying to talk with anyone so blind as to think that eternal torture is just. They simply have no idea what they are talking about and refuse to admit thier error.

Might as well cover torture in general. That there is a just and moral justification at times.

There is a dog who has his jaws locked on the leg of a young girl. He refuses to let go. So..... we begin by lighting a match and holding it to his back paw. He yelps and releases the leg from between his jaws...


2,000,000 people in a city are about to be destroyed by a group of suicide bombers with a dirty bomb in the trunk of their car. A known associate is captured and forced to a secluded cabin by government agents. He has his jaw willfully locked tight and refuses to speak.....


Eternal torture is the means to short circuit evil heart's desires and intentions. When in constant torment they can not scheme nor plot harm in their minds.

Jesus said, to think it, is to do it. To lust in one's heart is to commit the act.

Torments will FOREVER put an end to the thinking and planning of envious evil. All thinking will be caused to be a constant blaming of self for being in torments... For, all those in torments will know that God gave them chances time after time to seek him.

Their greatest torment will be knowing that if given a second chance, they would reject the Lord all over again. That if let free, the first thing they would do would be to wish to destroy the Lord. The weak will want others to do it for them. Satan is their hero. The Lake of Fire was designed for those who wanted the Lord dead, and to set up their own world.

Torment is the effective way to get all evil to concentrate only on self, and to disable all evil thinking which would be directed outwardly towards others whom they do not approve of.




.

 

[Giver]

Do you agree with Scripture???

You always do what it says literally? Without knowing the context? No I wait for the Holy Spirit/Jesus to teach me.

Mark 9:47 (New International Version)​

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."​

​

DO IT! Don't tell me your eye never caused you to sin in your heart! The Bible says that if you say you never sinned, that you are a liar and the truth is not in you!
No! Since I have come to know God my eye hasn’t caused me to sin. If I were in danger of sinning because of my eyes, I would have them taken out.

1 John 1:10 (New International Version)​

"If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." ​

You have been around enough to know that isn’t the way that verse reads. It is nasty to try to use it the way you have. (1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. To say that we have never sinned is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”




​

Taking things out of context and abusing them is where the Devil excels with a certain type of person who has a natural deep religious drive to prove themselves by works. They would be sacrificing to the gods if they lived in a pagan land.

Yes I know, you better be careful.
Why do you think Muslims blow themselves up? Certain types of people if not protected by knowledge, will destroy themselves in the name of pleasing their god.

The Devil knows who they are. The difference between you and a Muslim, is that God's Word is alive and powerful here.. truly transforming the soul in the believer who walks in the Spirit and Truth. We see through you. But, we also can not see for you.

We are trying to reason with you. But, you are on your own personal Holy Jihad - with Christian trimmings. And, you also seem to be a person with a need for attention... which you will get here. For a season. Ignore buttons do wonders after a while.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 (New International Version)​

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions... "​

​

In Christ, GeneZ




.

You know you keep spouting out negative words about anyone who disagrees with you. Yet that is all you do. You only use scriptures that don’t apply or none at all. Again I ask you to show me where I misquoted any scripture.

 

[tapero]

How about this, there is no sense in talking to someone who sees God as a quiet old grandpa figure instead being holy, righteous, and just? The Bible is clear, we are accountable for the choices we make and no one has an excuse. The people who end up in Hell deserve it.

Hi, I disagree as to the deserve part, as pertains to this portion.

Well, actually in several senses but let me explain.

First, In NT says many will be decieved.

Those who are decieved are those who believe they are in Christ, but are decieved by preachers, or whatever, and they are decieved.

This is very very very sad. And it's going to occur that these will go to hell..and it's cause they are decieved.

They do not even know such and will not till judgement and it's too late then.

On to others, to say that people deserve hell in my opinion is fairly cruel to say...

While is what will occur, they will go to hell for unforgiven sins, for not believing in Christ,

I can tell you that many have no awareness at all of God.. and may never.. May never even in america hear anything about God etc.

satan is the enemy here, not non christians. satan is blinding them, satan keeps them from the truth.

So while in the end as to those who reject God knowingly it's not a deserve, it's a what's going to happen, as to anyone without Christ.

So to me is very cold to say anyone deserves hell. Is also self righteous to say so imo as once we all were without Christ and clueless, and until we came to Christ, and were alive, had no clue to anything about Christ that we recieve only after we come to Christ for many many of us.

Some, let's say atheists make a choice to be so.

However, even among those who call themselves atheists are like any other, and they themselves may not even fully know or believe what they say of themselvse.

to me their are two camps and no more than that.

believers

and

non believers

no matter what the non believers call themselves, be it atheist, agnostic, whatever, they are still simply non believers, dead.

i had no thoughts, no teachings, no nothing as pertains to God until I came to Christ, and all that took about a month. and i was 33 years old. So prior to that time, had no awareness in the least of God, had none to very little conscience of the very dark life i lived, and if i was guilty about something, it wasn't God came to mind, as I never ever in my life thought of God i felt guilty for the wife or whatever.

Never did anything to God ever enter my thoughts or anything at all until shortly before I came to Christ.

Also many have heard the gospel many many times and do not know why they didn't 'hear' before (was not a rejection or such) they just dont know why they didn't hear before, and we don't know why they didn't hear before.

tho i think this verse sheds a bit of lite on that tho doesn't really but is just a tad of help.as is revealing somewhat of what it is like coming to christ, tho this verse is about those in christ.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

I do not know why I heard when I did. No clue but I did.

If someone thinks others deserve hell, essentially they are feeling self righteous about their own state.

I'm not big on the age of accountability as is not given in the bible, is a man made thing;

but let's go with it for now, and lets say that one say at 16 is accountable now..

let's say now that he's accountable, he dies.

knowing nothing about God, never hearing of God, never thinking of God and boom shot dead in school.

so your going to say your nephew or such who is 16 well he deserved hell.

the story is about satan and christ and the ongoing battle.

Christ has won, but satan is blinding people and doing a very good job.

yes, here on the forums people hear and reject..but so do many many who have heard and later come to Christ, when they hear the 10th time or 30th time.

so, i know of your posts and know you are solid, and just had to speak up cause I do believe saying what you said is not fair nor accurate nor true.

Not only is our battle not against flesh and blood, well same goes for non christians... satan rules this world, God calls, but satan knows what to do to keep people from hearing the call.

I never ever was called to my knowledge before the time I came to Christ. never nothing to do with nor thoughts of anything spritual, nor eternity, etc, in the least, and never a hint or clue anywhere. never looked, as never came to mind.

never thought of anything eternal.

and so while if i died unsaved, i would have died in my sins, might say, well she was a sinner so she deserved to go to hell....welll praise God that you were called and that I was called and for whtever reason we heard, becuse we all do not come the same way.

i can speak more as pertains to romans 1...

and will if you need me to expalin how that played out in my life prior to and after Christ.

But the enemy is satan, and He is destroying and murdering, and that is the very sad state of this world.

until we are in Christ, we have no clue to it all.

why would anyone expect those not in Christ to be clued in when they can't even hear.

some will hear, and who knows why or what makes them hear, but some will, some won't,some will reject, and again even so, many of these reject out of hurt from others or other bad experiences,which again satan uses to keep them in that state..others are downright evil.

many many things keep people from Christ, many think oh it's always pride and in no wise is that the case. many think it's because they desire to continue in sin, surely some do knowingly say, i know if i came to christ could not continue thusly, but that is some people and not all,not in the least.. there are all types of things going on. and every individual different.

just cause satans biggie prob is pride does not mean is same problem non believers have.

 

[mont974x4]

People make the choice, and we have no excuse, which is why people get what they deserve.


In no way does that mean we stop spreading the Gospel and praying for people to be free from their sin and bondage.

 

[tapero]

People make the choice, and we have no excuse, which is why people get what they deserve.


In no way does that mean we stop spreading the Gospel and praying for people to be free from their sin and bondage.

hi, either you didn't read my post or missed what i said.

maybe reread it, and explain to me about those who are decieved.

and about the 16 year old example.

and about those who have no clue in the least such as i didn't (untiil i came to Christ) nor do many others.

and tell me how self righteousness and pride to say such deserve hell, knowing very well, many will be decieved, and many to mostare blinded by the god of this age as to the truth, just as you and I were before we came to Christ.

with all i gave you, at least you might wish to line by line answer the post.

tell me how you are gonna whoop it up at the deserving of these?

I dont' think God is going to. I think its going to be heartbreaking to God.

 

[mont974x4]

I never said anything about "whooing it up". It is a very sad thing, but it is a fact.

nasb

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


The 16 year old would be a tragic case, but even he would be without excuse.

 

[tapero]

I never said anything about "whooing it up". It is a very sad thing, but it is a fact.

nasb

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


The 16 year old would be a tragic case, but even he would be without excuse.

I never saw God in His creation until after I came to Christ, was very first thing I saw moments after coming to Christ.

Okay ,I apologize on the whooping up, but is exact same thing as saying they deserve hell.. and when read, by non c's is what they hear. see it all the time in d and d forums; c's are joyed that we will be in hell forever and tortured.

so adds to their presuppositions, prejudices and further pushes them away, and guess they're right to feel so.

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

.

edited, not to you but verse that came to mind as to the topic at hand tho is not really applicable.

 

[tapero]

too late, wanted to edit, but see you here, but was going to edit tht post

 

[mont974x4]

We may not be able to put a anme to it, but I think we all recognize something bigger than us is out there, especially when we see creation itself. Plus we have that little voice inside us that lets us know, at least in part, between right and wrong.

I think that is what the passage in Romans is getting at.


Remember the Bible also tells us that we all basically deserve death. We do deserve Hell. This is essential to know and accept as part of the Gospel.

 

[mont974x4]

no worries, Sis. Were just talking here.

 

[yassin]

No we wouldn't.

I think that murders are to be executed.

If you Obey God and do this execution you are not a murderer or really a killer.

You are part of a group that executes God Judgment.

I am not willing to have murderers & rapers etc. on the streets.

God's law is perfect, and it states that such evil should be put from among us, so be it.

 

[tapero]

We may not be able to put a anme to it, but I think we all recognize something bigger than us is out there, especially when we see creation itself. Plus we have that little voice inside us that lets us know, at least in part, between right and wrong.

I think that is what the passage in Romans is getting at.


Remember the Bible also tells us that we all basically deserve death. We do deserve Hell. This is essential to know and accept as part of the Gospel.

ok i hear you, but i can assure you 1000% such didn't occur with me, at all. at all.

romans 1 became alive after i came to Christ and not before.

In the nt NIV did word search deserve... only place speaks of in ways you are saying it is in Romans 1.

The one in revealation pertains to murdererers of propehts etc.

But you won't find anything in nt (unless my search missed it) where God is saying deserved except in Romans 1

You are saying bible says they deserve such, only place is in romans 1 and revelation.. now since satan has blinded people as surely has occurred, then why would we add fuel to the fire, salt to the wound, and let non c's hear us say, okay then, well then you deserve hell.

there's no need at all. if someone said such to me, before i came to Christ, i may have never considered God when I did.. it hurts non c's to hear us talk such as they are already much hurt in many ways, and we are absolutely blind until we come to Christ, absolutely dead.

why one can be called all their life and not hear till 20 years later, no clue, but is what occurs..to some... it's not that they want to sin, in all cases, it's not that their pride is stopping them in all cases, the cases are as individual as the person.

sin, pride, nothing kept me away from God, except I never heard of him, thought of him, never taught of him, nothing, so if me, then how many countless others,

everyone is in different situations..but often times christians say, oh your pride keeps you back from coming to Christ, basically that's the biggest thing christians will say, you dont want to forgo your sinful pleasurse... NOT TRUE... true of some, but not all..but is main thing c's will tell non c's..which is just more fuel, more hate, towards christians, pushing them further and further away.


Now if I didn't see Romans 1 come alive until after I came to Christ, that is I didn't see Him in His creation (I did immediately after coming to Christ - i litteraly and actually walked out the door moments after coming to Christ and when i saw the trees, leaves sky and clousds it was different than I had ever ever seen and immediately 2nd thing occured, i knew this was the truth (christ) and i had suppressed it, and of course i had no clue to romans 1 for a very long time after that, yet both those are from romans 1) nor did I knowing or do i have any awareness at all of suppressing the truth of God by my wickedness (sins) so that means it had to happen while a child, which i've no recollection of.....

so if I didn't see romans 1, and we know Romans 1 is truth..

that means others dont see God in His creation either and also do not know that they suppress the knowledge of God by their sin, some do, but if I didn't means tons others dont as well.

It's very critical to know what the game is.

the game is that satan runs this world, blinds people, God says people will be decieved.

there is one other hit comes up about desreve, and yup wouldn't you figure, it's about leaders/teachers.

these are the same who will/are decieving those who believe they are christains and are not.

these decieved ones have no clue that they aren't in Christ.

Jesus rebuked these in His time (phrarisees -who were not believers in God) because these are the worst of the worse.

false leaders/teachers can be believing or unbelieving, are the worse of the worse, because that is where the deception is.

In church..

christians blame non c's for woes..the woe is the religious leaders..decieving many

none the less, satan is the problem here.

satan is the god of this world, he masquerades as light, he is decieving our mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers who will go to hell because they think they are good enough....or because they've been burnt by 'religious people' or lies, misconceptions, prejudices, because satan tells them such..no need to look farther, and they don't have the bible telling them differently...and they are decieved, that is for those who have a hope somehow... a false hope.

then those who willingly know and say no way, even these are decieved...many many non christians, especially atheists have been burned by Chrisitans or religion or something, and satan uses that, and keeps those wounds fresh and up front all the time

then we have come in d and d people telling them they are garbage to boot and add to it.. they just add it to why they want nothing ot do with what they dont understand to begin with.

we are dead before christ, absolutely dead.

if the world is so bad, that even romans 1 can not be apparent as wasn't to me, that just shows how much satans work in being successful in keeping people away from God, or from even wondering about God, etc.

then there are those who are evil, they are just evil, and they know it..

the world is decieved, its' an extremely horrible situation...

i've been in d and d long enough to know and see what's going on there with atheists mainly.

they are blinded, they are walking wounded, they have been burnt, they think things of God which aren't true, which comes from Christians..and many many things.

they are decieved as well.

they may be arrogant, mocking whtever, but they are decieved.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, orSatan, who leads the whole world astray.

this is in revelation (above)

this is too, just an example but is re the 1000 year reign

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations

just noting this one, as a 2nd reminder of what satan does.

I never blame satan for stuff in my life (or very little, as I just rarely go there in my thoughts),

if i do, i just say get behind me satan (if i recognize it, but we don't always know if hardly), and that's it, but I do recognize spiritual battles ongoing in my life (if i realize it) and I sure know what's that about as pertains to ephesians (armor and battle not against flesh and blood) talks of it.

and again as already said, it's not just us in the battle the battle is deadly and is for the lives of men, all men, the non believers are in it and have no clue to it, can't..even we can't tell what's going on with us as pertains to the spiritual realm which we can not see.

Job had no clue he was in a spiritual battle, he thought God was taking away (killing his kids), it was satan, 2nd chapter he says why take only good and not bad from the Lord, (another destruction befell) and it was not the Lord who gave the bad it was satan.

Job had no way to know this, we know, cause we can read it, God tells us, but Job thought it was God. It was not God.

Many walk away from God thinking Hes doing all these horrrible awful things in live, many many Christians due to some crappy theology taught, think God does such and many fall away due to such.. but Job a man of God, of course he could not see behind the curtain as we were given to see in Job, and it was not God who did what Job attributed to God doing it was satan, the murderer of his children, and the destroyer of everything else he had and all that occurred to him.

nonetheless this is what is going on..there is a battle for souls and they are decieved....

and in 911, we don't know if that day God stopped a nuclear bomb from going off, we dont' know if during that tsunami that Gods intervention saved many thousands of lives..we know God is working in this world, but we also know he gave free will to satan, angels and man, and he does not interfere or hinder us or force us to be obedient, but He works in ways to help us and as well help non believers as I know he saved my life many times as a non c (as i look back after came to Christ),

He works things to our good

for some reason the non c is not raped but the c is.

or visa versa

we dont' know why.

we dont' see it all..

and prayer is so vital

sorry for going on.

 

[IamRedeemed]

John 3:18-19
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


That's why the Gospel is The Good News!
He who does not believe is condemned already. That means without
Christ we have already been judged to pay the penalty of our sin.
Which means we are deserving of the condemnation, unless God is an unjust God.

The Word says that there is NONE righteous, no not one.
and that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God.
So, without Christ, our destiny is condemnation.

So, I repeat. Either we are deserving, or God is an unjust God.

It doesn't mean that those who understand that without Christ we were
hellbound are arrogant or Pharisees.

Pharisees were against the work of Christ.
That term is so often misused.....
And I have never heard any Christians say
"okay then well you deserve hell".
I think that is an interpretation issue.

See my blog Part one and Part two of "Was Jesus a Liberal" by
Selwyn Duke and find out who the REAL Pharisees are.

ok i hear you, but i can assure you 1000% such didn't occur with me, at all. at all.

romans 1 became alive after i came to Christ and not before.

In the nt NIV did word search deserve... only place speaks of in ways you are saying it is in Romans 1.

The one in revealation pertains to murdererers of propehts etc.

But you won't find anything in nt (unless my search missed it) where God is saying deserved except in Romans 1

You are saying bible says they deserve such, only place is in romans 1 and revelation.. now since satan has blinded people as surely has occurred, then why would we add fuel to the fire, salt to the wound, and let non c's hear us say, okay then, well then you deserve hell.

there's no need at all. if someone said such to me, before i came to Christ, i may have never considered God when I did.. it hurts non c's to hear us talk such as they are already much hurt in many ways, and we are absolutely blind until we come to Christ, absolutely dead.

why one can be called all their life and not hear till 20 years later, no clue, but is what occurs..to some... it's not that they want to sin, in all cases, it's not that their pride is stopping them in all cases, the cases are as individual as the person.

sin, pride, nothing kept me away from God, except I never heard of him, thought of him, never taught of him, nothing, so if me, then how many countless others,

everyone is in different situations..but often times christians say, oh your pride keeps you back from coming to Christ, basically that's the biggest thing christians will say, you dont want to forgo your sinful pleasurse... NOT TRUE... true of some, but not all..but is main thing c's will tell non c's..which is just more fuel, more hate, towards christians, pushing them further and further away.


Now if I didn't see Romans 1 come alive until after I came to Christ, that is I didn't see Him in His creation (I did immediately after coming to Christ - i litteraly and actually walked out the door moments after coming to Christ and when i saw the trees, leaves sky and clousds it was different than I had ever ever seen and immediately 2nd thing occured, i knew this was the truth (christ) and i had suppressed it, and of course i had no clue to romans 1 for a very long time after that, yet both those are from romans 1) nor did I knowing or do i have any awareness at all of suppressing the truth of God by my wickedness (sins) so that means it had to happen while a child, which i've no recollection of.....

so if I didn't see romans 1, and we know Romans 1 is truth..

that means others dont see God in His creation either and also do not know that they suppress the knowledge of God by their sin, some do, but if I didn't means tons others dont as well.

It's very critical to know what the game is.

the game is that satan runs this world, blinds people, God says people will be decieved.

there is one other hit comes up about desreve, and yup wouldn't you figure, it's about leaders/teachers.

these are the same who will/are decieving those who believe they are christains and are not.

these decieved ones have no clue that they aren't in Christ.

Jesus rebuked these in His time (phrarisees -who were not believers in God) because these are the worst of the worse.

false leaders/teachers can be believing or unbelieving, are the worse of the worse, because that is where the deception is.

In church..

christians blame non c's for woes..the woe is the religious leaders..decieving many

none the less, satan is the problem here.

satan is the god of this world, he masquerades as light, he is decieving our mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers who will go to hell because they think they are good enough....or because they've been burnt by 'religious people' or lies, misconceptions, prejudices, because satan tells them such..no need to look farther, and they don't have the bible telling them differently...and they are decieved, that is for those who have a hope somehow... a false hope.

then those who willingly know and say no way, even these are decieved...many many non christians, especially atheists have been burned by Chrisitans or religion or something, and satan uses that, and keeps those wounds fresh and up front all the time

then we have come in d and d people telling them they are garbage to boot and add to it.. they just add it to why they want nothing ot do with what they dont understand to begin with.

we are dead before christ, absolutely dead.

if the world is so bad, that even romans 1 can not be apparent as wasn't to me, that just shows how much satans work in being successful in keeping people away from God, or from even wondering about God, etc.

then there are those who are evil, they are just evil, and they know it..

the world is decieved, its' an extremely horrible situation...

i've been in d and d long enough to know and see what's going on there with atheists mainly.

they are blinded, they are walking wounded, they have been burnt, they think things of God which aren't true, which comes from Christians..and many many things.

they are decieved as well.

they may be arrogant, mocking whtever, but they are decieved.



this is in revelation (above)

this is too, just an example but is re the 1000 year reign



just noting this one, as a 2nd reminder of what satan does.

I never blame satan for stuff in my life (or very little, as I just rarely go there in my thoughts),

if i do, i just say get behind me satan (if i recognize it, but we don't always know if hardly), and that's it, but I do recognize spiritual battles ongoing in my life (if i realize it) and I sure know what's that about as pertains to ephesians (armor and battle not against flesh and blood) talks of it.

and again as already said, it's not just us in the battle the battle is deadly and is for the lives of men, all men, the non believers are in it and have no clue to it, can't..even we can't tell what's going on with us as pertains to the spiritual realm which we can not see.

Job had no clue he was in a spiritual battle, he thought God was taking away (killing his kids), it was satan, 2nd chapter he says why take only good and not bad from the Lord, (another destruction befell) and it was not the Lord who gave the bad it was satan.

Job had no way to know this, we know, cause we can read it, God tells us, but Job thought it was God. It was not God.

Many walk away from God thinking Hes doing all these horrrible awful things in live, many many Christians due to some crappy theology taught, think God does such and many fall away due to such.. but Job a man of God, of course he could not see behind the curtain as we were given to see in Job, and it was not God who did what Job attributed to God doing it was satan, the murderer of his children, and the destroyer of everything else he had and all that occurred to him.

nonetheless this is what is going on..there is a battle for souls and they are decieved....

and in 911, we don't know if that day God stopped a nuclear bomb from going off, we dont' know if during that tsunami that Gods intervention saved many thousands of lives..we know God is working in this world, but we also know he gave free will to satan, angels and man, and he does not interfere or hinder us or force us to be obedient, but He works in ways to help us and as well help non believers as I know he saved my life many times as a non c (as i look back after came to Christ),

He works things to our good

for some reason the non c is not raped but the c is.

or visa versa

we dont' know why.

we dont' see it all..

and prayer is so vital

sorry for going on.

 

[tapero]

John 3:18-19
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


That's why the Gospel is The Good News!
He who does not believe is condemned already. That means without
Christ we have already been judged to pay the penalty of our sin.
Which means we are deserving of the condemnation, unless God is an unjust God.

The Word says that there is NONE righteous, no not one.
and that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God.
So, without Christ, our destiny is condemnation.

So, I repeat. Either we are deserving, or God is an unjust God.

It doesn't mean that those who understand that without Christ we were
hellbound are arrogant or Pharisees.

Pharisees were against the work of Christ.
That term is so often misused.....
And I have never heard any Christians say
"okay then well you deserve hell".
I think that is an interpretation issue.

See my blog Part one and Part two of "Was Jesus a Liberal" by
Selwyn Duke and find out who the REAL Pharisees are.

If you go and look and search on the word deserve, you'll find the only application in Romans 1. Elsewise is in Revelation, both are mentioned in my too long post below.

My point is, as I had no knowledge, thought, nor was taught, nor saw God in His creation, nor when sinned thought about God, nor knowingly supressed any knowledge of God etc (prior to coming to Christ) then same must occur to others as well.

You said you never said you never heard a christian say someone is deserving of hell, well then you missed where it was said which is what my reply posts are all about. It was said several posts back that those who go to hell deserve to go to hell and by a Christian. And many Christians say same.

If it's posted here, well non christians are reading so it is being said out loud to non christians which triggered these posts..you just need read back where it started.

Pharisees were not believers and kept people from the kingdom and when did make a convert made em as bad as they themselves are.

pharisees' today, are same thing, religious teachers, which are the decievers of those who sit in churches under them and are probably the 2nd most evil in this world aside from satan.

As many will be decieved Jesus says and they are not being decieved that they are Christians by non Christians meaning by your average non christian.

They are being decieved by those who are in pulpits, tv, radio etc, who are decieving them, and they that sit under them think they are serving and following Christ and are not as they are decieved.

So, it's a very easy compare from pharisee who were the religious leaders/teachers of the Hebrews, to todays' pastors, false teachers who today decieve those sitting under them.

The false teachers may or may not be decieved themselves.

They may be wolves.

so is a very easy compare.

Pharisee's were not working for Christ and they have been all along the way there, but when they were rebuked by Christ he rebuked them for what they did. They keep people from the kingdom.

One could come to God before Christ, and they kept people from God, and then in Christs time they of course did not believe in Christ, they didn't believe before He came either, so now they were as you say working against Christ as well.

But doesn't matter, before Christ or during, they ALWAYS kept people from the kindgom, these false religoius teachers, in the gospels the ones Jesus rebuked did not believe in God at all, and of course not Jesus either.

And same occurs today in Christian churches.

Many will be decieved and it's going to be many who are in churches, we know for a fact:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

relative to Jesus time, was the prophesying and driving out demons and performing miracles.

and relative to our time, may be exact same things done as well as add any thing done as regards what they believe they were doing as believers/followers of Christ, and they NEVER knew Him. They were never believers to begin with.. they were doing what they did by other means (demonic, of course) and they had no clue, they are decieved.. They believed they are doing good and right and Christ never knew them to begin with..

So many decieved are in the church.

others in the world are decieved, never in a church..

both decieved by satan.

You dont' see God saying anywhere but in Romans 1 and in Revelation about deserving......

again my point is, as an unbeliever since I saw none of what's in romans 1, did not sin to mock God, or whatever. i had no clue or thought or dream or nothing or teaching or anything at all about God, eterniity or anything.

satan decieves the world..so that, I didn't even see God in His creation until after I came to Christ; which shows how bad it is, i am just one, but obviously (dont know if you read it) where right after I came to Christ, the world appeared physically different to me right after moments after I came to Chirst, hence romans 1 occurred (as pertains to seeing God in His creation) AFTER I came to Christ, not BEFORE as Romans 1 says.

point is..millions others out there just like me, total unawareness of God.

Just because we're on cf, doesn't mean the world is, and I certainly wasn't at 33 years old, 20 years ago...i never heard the gospel, never rejected God, never even thought or heard of God at all.

I didn't love darkness better than light, I was dead and had NO CLUE TO THE LIGHT when I was an unbeliever.

I NEVER was around anyone any church any believers, never anything.

and many are like this.

not to mention. the many other deceptions out there, and it all doesn't fit in the tidy box people think it does.

you see christians saying to non christians

oh, your prideful, your pride keeps you from God.

or

oh you love your sin, keeping you from God.

or

whatever and on and on and on.

there are many many many many many many reasons people don't get it

how do believers forget they were in the exact same boat and that their stories dont fit neatly in the box.

some non c's say God doesn't exist.

it's where they are at. They are not lying. That is truth to them. How can believers forget they once were the same, tho that may not have been their story.

there are many many many many stories

many stumbling blocks
and they are not in a box.

 

[GenemZ]

You know you keep spouting out negative words about anyone who disagrees with you. Yet that is all you do. You only use scriptures that don’t apply or none at all. Again I ask you to show me where I misquoted any scripture.

You quoted them correctly.

I showed you HOW you misuse Scripture that you quote.

At least, I tried. I think you are just not capable of seeing the point you keep on missing.

I can see why you believe what you do for that reason.

 

[GenemZ]

Oh I think he's a complete heretic and have called him on it in other threads. But be careful, Giver has this tendency to request mods shut down threads he has started where he's either being ridiculed too much or getting mocked endlessly. He always claims it has gone too far off topic, when all that's really happened, is he can't defend his points against his critics.

The mods will begin to see a trend after it happens enough times.

 

[GenemZ]

Satan must jump up and down with joy every time some one makes a unreal, unseeing, misled, and foolish statement such as you just made.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Now how are you going to explain how Jesus saves someone who sins and doesn’t know God? , John says a person who sins has never known God,

So? Now you are saying that we know God because we do not sin?

“Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”



It says, what?

Anyone 'who lives in God. ' In God?

In the filling of the Holy Spirit! God! ... does not sin.


Those who keep on sinning, never get to know the God who saved them. Some even come up with crazy ideas about who and what Jesus is... They never see him. They do not know him.

For their arrogance cuts them off from the filling of the Holy Spirit... The Spirit who must lead us into all truth.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

As I said before there is no point in even trying to talk with anyone so blind as to think that eternal torture is just. They simply have no idea what they are talking about and refuse to admit thier error.

It really depends on what you define 'eternal torture' as. It could mean anything from being poked with rusty sharpened prison spoons to existence apart from God, to removal from existance. The problem is, if you believe we have free will, and that God gives us the choice to follow Him or not, then there must be an option for those who choose not to.

 

[IamRedeemed]

You don't have to do a "word search" on the word "deserve" to understand the
basics of the Gospel.

I understand there are immature Christians and there are also people claiming
to be Christians who deny the resurrection. Then there are those who think they
have arrived, siding with those who deny the resurrection, deny upright living,
and wear masks here but are totally different people elsewhere reprimanding
other Christians. It's an ugly scene, no doubt. There is a whole array of garbage
going on that shouldn't be. I agree. It is grieving the Holy Spirit.

Btw, just a thought I would mention, did you know that the NIV is
published by the same publisher of the "Satanic Bible". True. Check it out.

Good night.

If you go and look and search on the word deserve, you'll find the only application in Romans 1. Elsewise is in Revelation, both are mentioned in my too long post below.

My point is, as I had no knowledge, thought, nor was taught, nor saw God in His creation, nor when sinned thought about God, nor knowingly supressed any knowledge of God etc (prior to coming to Christ) then same must occur to others as well.

You said you never said you never heard a christian say someone is deserving of hell, well then you missed where it was said which is what my reply posts are all about. It was said several posts back that those who go to hell deserve to go to hell and by a Christian. And many Christians say same.

If it's posted here, well non christians are reading so it is being said out loud to non christians which triggered these posts..you just need read back where it started.

Pharisees were not believers and kept people from the kingdom and when did make a convert made em as bad as they themselves are.

pharisees' today, are same thing, religious teachers, which are the decievers of those who sit in churches under them and are probably the 2nd most evil in this world aside from satan.

As many will be decieved Jesus says and they are not being decieved that they are Christians by non Christians meaning by your average non christian.

They are being decieved by those who are in pulpits, tv, radio etc, who are decieving them, and they that sit under them think they are serving and following Christ and are not as they are decieved.

So, it's a very easy compare from pharisee who were the religious leaders/teachers of the Hebrews, to todays' pastors, false teachers who today decieve those sitting under them.

The false teachers may or may not be decieved themselves.

They may be wolves.

so is a very easy compare.

Pharisee's were not working for Christ and they have been all along the way there, but when they were rebuked by Christ he rebuked them for what they did. They keep people from the kingdom.

One could come to God before Christ, and they kept people from God, and then in Christs time they of course did not believe in Christ, they didn't believe before He came either, so now they were as you say working against Christ as well.

But doesn't matter, before Christ or during, they ALWAYS kept people from the kindgom, these false religoius teachers, in the gospels the ones Jesus rebuked did not believe in God at all, and of course not Jesus either.

And same occurs today in Christian churches.

Many will be decieved and it's going to be many who are in churches, we know for a fact:



relative to Jesus time, was the prophesying and driving out demons and performing miracles.

and relative to our time, may be exact same things done as well as add any thing done as regards what they believe they were doing as believers/followers of Christ, and they NEVER knew Him. They were never believers to begin with.. they were doing what they did by other means (demonic, of course) and they had no clue, they are decieved.. They believed they are doing good and right and Christ never knew them to begin with..

So many decieved are in the church.

others in the world are decieved, never in a church..

both decieved by satan.

You dont' see God saying anywhere but in Romans 1 and in Revelation about deserving......

again my point is, as an unbeliever since I saw none of what's in romans 1, did not sin to mock God, or whatever. i had no clue or thought or dream or nothing or teaching or anything at all about God, eterniity or anything.

satan decieves the world..so that, I didn't even see God in His creation until after I came to Christ; which shows how bad it is, i am just one, but obviously (dont know if you read it) where right after I came to Christ, the world appeared physically different to me right after moments after I came to Chirst, hence romans 1 occurred (as pertains to seeing God in His creation) AFTER I came to Christ, not BEFORE as Romans 1 says.

point is..millions others out there just like me, total unawareness of God.

Just because we're on cf, doesn't mean the world is, and I certainly wasn't at 33 years old, 20 years ago...i never heard the gospel, never rejected God, never even thought or heard of God at all.

I didn't love darkness better than light, I was dead and had NO CLUE TO THE LIGHT when I was an unbeliever.

I NEVER was around anyone any church any believers, never anything.

and many are like this.

not to mention. the many other deceptions out there, and it all doesn't fit in the tidy box people think it does.

you see christians saying to non christians

oh, your prideful, your pride keeps you from God.

or

oh you love your sin, keeping you from God.

or

whatever and on and on and on.

there are many many many many many many reasons people don't get it

how do believers forget they were in the exact same boat and that their stories dont fit neatly in the box.

some non c's say God doesn't exist.

it's where they are at. They are not lying. That is truth to them. How can believers forget they once were the same, tho that may not have been their story.

there are many many many many stories

many stumbling blocks
and they are not in a box.

 

[GenemZ]

Btw, just a thought I would mention, did you know that the NIV is
published by the same publisher of the "Satanic Bible". True. Check it out.

Zondervan Publishing House is a long standing Christian publisher.

I would imagine if they had done such a thing? They would be publishing a copy of the Satanic Bible so that Pastors and counselors can read it to better understand the way of thinking it contains. Its not to promote, if that be the case.

I just did a search on Zondervan's page and did not come up with any product under "Satanic Bible." It does show a book called "Satanism." http://tinyurl.com/389evc

Where did you get that juicy bit of info from?


Yes...perplexed... GeneZ




.