We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[tapero]

Guys, you wouldn't be fibbing just to be able to mock Giver, would you? Fibbing is a sin, just as much as deceiving the flock is. Are you really being honest here?

ah, the sin pointer outer post

 

[Soul Searcher]

The notion that God would send anyone to burn in hell for eternity is pretty far removed from anything that would resemble a loving God or a just one... I am surprised that so many Christains can't seem to see this simple truth.

 

[Calminian]

The notion that God would send anyone to burn in hell for eternity is pretty far removed from anything that would resemble a loving God or a just one... I am surprised that so many Christains can't seem to see this simple truth.

Can you define "just" for us?

 

[IamRedeemed]

Yes. Please do Soulsearcher. Maybe we could use a hypothetical
scenario......

What do you suppose society would "judge" a Judge as, if a man brought
before court had just brutally murdered and mutilated thereafter a
family of 5 and the Judge sentenced him to a week of house arrest
and a fine of $250.00?

Would this Judge be "judged" by society as a "just" Judge?

The notion that God would send anyone to burn in hell for eternity is pretty far removed from anything that would resemble a loving God or a just one... I am surprised that so many Christains can't seem to see this simple truth.

Can you define "just" for us?

 

[GenemZ]

Thats your theology...

Believers face only the judgement of works, and for loss/reward in heaven only.

I am not even sure we disagree. You may be confusing temporal judgment, with eternal sanctification.

And in that judgement if all is burned up... person is still saved.

Agreed. I have not said anything about losing one's salvation. So? Why are you doing this?

But nonetheless, i had said once comes to Christ one is forgiven, so a murderer is forgiven once comes to Christ, just as any other sinner.

In Heaven, yes! Forgiven.

But? As believers, we still have consequences that effect us while living on this earth.

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 (New International Version)
"For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment."
​

So if you think Jesus' death and resurrection in paying for sins, and that all who believe in him are forgiven and a new creation in Christ, wasn't good enough that is your sad state of affairs.

I have no idea how you are misconstruing what I have been saying.


.

 

[VCViking]

Maybe this was already touched on but Jesus and His Word both state what soldiers should do. I believe this would apply to all Law Enforcement.

Luke 3:14
Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?” So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.


Matthew 8:9-10
9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

If you are God then you can complete the Law. We are not God. Our job is to obey God’s Word. He said:(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”


The world because it doesn’t know God needs to be governed by law. The world needs to enforce its laws. Christians don’t need the law; Christians are not part of the World. Christians don’t take part in word’s affairs.

Sure, but when the world's affairs come to us, we must do our duty to protect human life. If you are being persecuted for representing the name of Christ, then I can understand your position. Thats what the focus is, anyway, its about persecution for being a Christian. It doesn't state anywhere that we should let criminals hurt our loved ones while we sit around and accept it as inevitability. And if I'm wrong about this, then all I can do is pray for mercy.

Take care

 

[Soul Searcher]

Can you define "just" for us?

In a word "fair"

Of course with God there is more to it than that for he is also merciful and Jesus teaches that and eye for and eye [which is an extreme form of justice] is wrong and that our judgment should be tempered with mercy and forgiveness just as we would want to receive should we be the guilty party. You know do unto others... do not do unto others..

The doctorine of eternal hell fire is so far removed from any concept of justice that it boggles the mind and mercy certianly never enters the equation. There have been many convoluted attempts to explain and/or justify this such as a sin against God is an eternal sin and requires an eternal penalty or God can not be in the presence of sin or that it is really seperation from God and that is what the people really want anyway. None of these have any merit at all. The latter two even directly contradict parts of the bible. Really it just proves that even so called believers in the doctorines have major doubts about them and will grasp at straws to try and find a way to justify that which can not be justified.

I think deep down we all know they are false, but many are afraid to admit it, even to themselves.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes. Please do Soulsearcher. Maybe we could use a hypothetical
scenario......

What do you suppose society would "judge" a Judge as, if a man brought
before court had just brutally murdered and mutilated thereafter a
family of 5 and the Judge sentenced him to a week of house arrest
and a fine of $250.00?

Would this Judge be "judged" by society as a "just" Judge?

Of course not... Turn it around though lets say the man stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family and the judge sentenced him to 40 years of torture. Would he be deemed just then or would the people cry for his head?

What about 1 man murders a family of five and said he was sorry and believes in Jesus and the other stole a loaf of bread and said he does not believe. The judge then realeses the murderer with a million dollars and tortures the other as painfully as possible for the rest of his natural life using extra special care to make sure the guy lives as long as is possible while suffering the most pain possible.

Please note that the sentence of eternal hell fire is far more severe than either of the ones above so much so that those above would seem less than a slap on the wrist and far more unjust as well and not only that simply being born is enough to warrant the sentence according to the doctorines. The only escape is to believe the right way and apparently you can believe after 90 years of killing and get a free pass or not believe of 90 years of helping your fellow man every day and still get the same punishment as Hitler.

Hopefully you will see the problem here.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Of course not... Turn it around though lets say the man stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family and the judge sentenced him to 40 years or torture. Would he be deemed just then or would the people cry for his head?

What about 1 man murder a family of five and said he was sorry and believe in Jesus and the other stole a loaf of bread and said he does not. The judge then realeses the murderer with a million dollars and tortures the other as painfully as possible for the rest of his natural life using extra special care to make sure the guy lives as long as is possible while suffering the most pain possible.

Please note that the sentence of eternal hell fire is far more severe than either of the ones above and far more unjust as well and not only that simply being born is enough to warrant the sentence accoring to the doctorines.

Hopefully you will see the problem here.

That is assuming, of course, that the aftermath of being blotted out of the book of life is some sort of infernoish eternal playground.

 

[Soul Searcher]

That is assuming, of course, that the aftermath of being blotted out of the book of life is some sort of infernoish eternal playground.

I was of course refering to the commonly preached hellfire doctorines which have people suffering without end and without mercy for eternity wether it be fire or mental anguish really would make little difference as to the level of injustice shown.

Of course there are other ideas, total destruction, rebirth, salavtion of all, all of which make much more sense than eternal hell.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I was of course refering to the commonly preached hellfire doctorines which have people suffering without end and without mercy for eternity wether it be fire or mental anguish really would make little difference as to the level of injustice shown.

Of course there are other ideas, total destruction, rebirth, salavtion of all, all of which make much more sense than eternal hell.

ah, gotcha. I really haven't spent alot of time studying the concepts of hell or eternal damnation, I feel like its irrelevant with regards to where I'm going. From what i've gathered of it , though, it seems like alot of the common concept of hell is based alot on works like dante's inferno.

 

[GenemZ]

Wrong person posted to. Edit.

 

[GenemZ]

I was of course refering to the commonly preached hellfire doctorines which have people suffering without end and without mercy for eternity wether it be fire or mental anguish really would make little difference as to the level of injustice shown.

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
​

I admit... Hell fire preaching should be not the way to the good news. But? To try to deny there are consequences for rejecting Jesus Christ?

That's plain outright denial. For the Bible makes it clear that there is to be a Lake of Fire for all who rejected Christ.

If you want to call it unjust? That is one thing. But, to deny it will be that way? It makes no sense.

Revelation 20:14-15 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
​

To say that is unjust?

It says two things. God is a liar. God is unjust.

What such a person should be asking themselves...

"If, God is just? If, God does not lie?"

"Then... I am yet to understand God as he really is."


.

 

[GenemZ]

Please note that the sentence of eternal hell fire is far more severe than either of the ones above so much so that those above would seem less than a slap on the wrist and far more unjust as well and not only that simply being born is enough to warrant the sentence according to the doctorines. The only escape is to believe the right way and apparently you can believe after 90 years of killing and get a free pass or not believe of 90 years of helping your fellow man every day and still get the same punishment as Hitler.

Hopefully you will see the problem here.

The problem is...... Men are not going to Hell for their sins. Jesus paid the penalty for all men's sins! Hitler's, too.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
​

Men's sins will not even be mentioned at the last judgment.

There is only one thing that saves men. Believing in Jesus Christ. What theirs sins were is not the issue.


Men go to Hell not because of the severity of their sins. But, for the rejection of the Lord of creation.

 

[Zecryphon]

All true. But you do understand that sarcasm is a virtue and should be taught in every seminary?

I think in Lutheran seminaries it is! LOL Luther, there was a guy with a sharp tongue. LOL Read Bondage of the Will. Luther wouldn't last a day in this forum. LOL

 

[Zecryphon]

How come you do not think he is fibbing?

I think he might be.

He might have come here to get a reaction, knowing that what he is saying is to most Christians, insane... but, technically... can be manipulated using passages snatched out of context of the full council of Scripture.

For his sake, I hope he is fibbing.


.

Oh I think he's a complete heretic and have called him on it in other threads. But be careful, Giver has this tendency to request mods shut down threads he has started where he's either being ridiculed too much or getting mocked endlessly. He always claims it has gone too far off topic, when all that's really happened, is he can't defend his points against his critics.

 

[Zecryphon]

ah, the sin pointer outer post

Yep, see in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 I am commanded to judge those within the body of Christ. I'm actually trying to get them to ease up on Giver. The poor guy gets his butt kicked all over these forums on a daily basis. In the spirit of the season, we should give the guy a break and at least not mock him. We all know Giver is a false teacher as what he ways does not line up with scripture. Picking on Giver isn't even really that fun as he's such an easy mark. I'm just holding the brethren accountable, in a not so confrontational way. People still sin, Tapero. People still need to repent of their sins. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross did not earn universal salvation for all. People need to go to the cross daily and ask their intercessor between God and man, Jesus Christ, to forgive them. It keeps us in a right relationship with God.

 

[Zecryphon]

I am not even sure we disagree. You may be confusing temporal judgment, with eternal sanctification.

Agreed. I have not said anything about losing one's salvation. So? Why are you doing this?

In Heaven, yes! Forgiven.

But? As believers, we still have consequences that effect us while living on this earth.

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 (New International Version)
"For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment."
​

I have no idea how you are misconstruing what I have been saying.


.

I have no idea how you are misconstruing what I have been saying.

Don't even bother trying to figure it out. This is just what she does.

 

[Giver]

The problem is...... Men are not going to Hell for their sins. Jesus paid the penalty for all men's sins! Hitler's, too.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)​

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ​

​

Men's sins will not even be mentioned at the last judgment.

There is only one thing that saves men. Believing in Jesus Christ. What theirs sins were is not the issue.


Men go to Hell not because of the severity of their sins. But, for the rejection of the Lord of creation.

Satan must jump up and down with joy every time some one makes a unreal, unseeing, misled, and foolish statement such as you just made.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Now how are you going to explain how Jesus saves someone who sins and doesn’t know God? , John says a person who sins has never known God,