We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Giver]

Jesus told me the devil told you that.

If the devil told me that then it must not be scriptural, show me in scripture where I’m wrong. Show me a place where Jesus tells us that we have a right to harm anyone. Remember I’m talking about Christians, not people of the world. The world needs to use force, because it needs to have laws to stop people from doing evil.

 

[Soul Searcher]

To say that is unjust?

It says two things. God is a liar. God is unjust. .

The doctorine teaches us somethign that is extremely unjust. There is no way to honestly deny it. And you are wrong saying that it is unjust does not say that God is unjust nor that God is a liar. God will not do this, God has not said he would do this. Men do not know what they are talking about. If God did do this then he would be unjust and he would be a liar. It is those who say he will that say he is unjust while saying he is just and say he is a liar while saying he can not lie.

I don;t want to turn this thread into a debate on hell, plenty of others for that but I will point out that any who think hell [as in eternal on ging punishment] is just does not have the slightest idea what just is and really need to stop using the word as it only makes them look foolish.

 

[Zecryphon]

The doctorine teaches us somethign that is extremely unjust. There is no way to honestly deny it. And you are wrong saying that it is unjust does not say that God is unjust nor that God is a liar. God will not do this, God has not said he would do this. Men do not know what they are talking about. If God did do this then he would be unjust and he would be a liar. It is those who say he will that say he is unjust while saying he is just and say he is a liar while saying he can not lie.

I don;t want to turn this thread into a debate on hell, plenty of others for that but I will point out that any who think hell [as in eternal on ging punishment] is just does not have the slightest idea what just is and really need to stop using the word as it only makes them look foolish.

Read Hell's Best Kept Secret by Ray Comfort or listen to the teaching here:

http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm

and see if you feel the same way. For me it's simple, if you sin against God, who deals in eternity, you will go to Hell for eternity. That is the punishment His law demands. It's no different than an earthly judge sending a criminal to jail for life.

What do you make of the following scriptures?

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Soul Searcher]

Ray Comfort? You've got to be kidding.

 

[Soul Searcher]

And no it is not simple. To send anyone to hell for eternity is far more unjust than anything that could ever be imagioned. It is more evil than all the evil done by all the most evil humans who have ever lived all rolled into one. In fact it is millions of times moreso.

It is in a word nonsense that only the blind could believe.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Let's also remember that same bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repenatnce. That he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, that he will give freely the waters of life to any who are a thrist.

Eternal Hell fire doctorines teach us that God does not obtain his will instead what he is not willing to allow he actually does and not just to a few but to the majority of mankind.

Again it is nonsense.

No point going any farther. This thread is not about hell and those who are blind enough to believe in such nonsense can not be reasoned with anyway.

 

[Zecryphon]

Ray Comfort? You've got to be kidding.

You may not like Ray Comfort and that's obvious from your statement. Now why don't you listen to the teaching and see if what he says makes sense. Focus on the teaching, not the teacher. Afraid you might find out you're wrong? I see you haven't given an interpretation of the scriptures I've provided. Apparently you don't want to address any teaching but just dismiss them because you don't like the teacher. That's fine too.

 

[Zecryphon]

And no it is not simple. To send anyone to hell for eternity is far more unjust than anything that could ever be imagioned. It is more evil than all the evil done by all the most evil humans who have ever lived all rolled into one. In fact it is millions of times moreso.

It is in a word nonsense that only the blind could believe.

"And no it is not simple."

Actually it is.

"To send anyone to hell for eternity is far more unjust than anything that could ever be imagioned. It is more evil than all the evil done by all the most evil humans who have ever lived all rolled into one. In fact it is millions of times moreso."

You apparently don't think you're evil. You've sinned against God, we all have. Guess what? According to God's standard you are evil. Do you now wanna attatch degrees to your sin and say the classic line of the unsaved people, "hey I'm not perfect, but I've never killed anybody"? Or how about "I'm nothing compared to Adolf Hitler"

The fact of the matter is, that you and Hitler are really no different in God's eyes. You're both sinners and you both deserve Hell. We all do. The only reason Hell seems evil or unfair to you is because you're using your standard of what is fair to judge this doctrine by. Your standard doesn't matter. What you think of as fair or just, doesn't matter. It's what God thinks that matters here. God has made it very clear that people will be sent to Hell on the last day.

"It is in a word nonsense that only the blind could believe."

Actually, those who you so flippantly call blind, have studied this in depth and understand it. Just because you may lack understanding on a topic is no reason to call those who disagree with you blind.

 

[Zecryphon]

Let's also remember that same bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repenatnce. That he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, that he will give freely the waters of life to any who are a thrist.

Eternal Hell fire doctorines teach us that God does not obtain his will instead what he is not willing to allow he actually does and not just to a few but to the majority of mankind.

Again it is nonsense.

No point going any farther. This thread is not about hell and those who are blind enough to believe in such nonsense can not be reasoned with anyway.

"Let's also remember that same bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repenatnce. That he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, that he will give freely the waters of life to any who are a thrist."

That's true, He does desire that. But He also knows that not all will come. For those who will not come to Him, Hell is their punishment, because they don't want Christ as their savior, for whatever reason and have opted to take the punishment themselves.

"Eternal Hell fire doctorines teach us that God does not obtain his will instead what he is not willing to allow he actually does and not just to a few but to the majority of mankind.

Again it is nonsense."

Ya know for a seeker, you seem to have it all figured out. Do you really wanna get into a debate about the various wills of God?

No point going any farther. This thread is not about hell and those who are blind enough to believe in such nonsense can not be reasoned with anyway.

Or perhaps it's pointless because you can't reason the doctrine of Hell away. I gave you scriptures that plainly teach on the last day people are going to Hell. You can call us blind and whatnot for taking God at His word. Whatever you have to do or say to make yourself feel better.

 

[Soul Searcher]

You may not like Ray Comfort and that's obvious from your statement. Now why don't you listen to the teaching and see if what he says makes sense. Focus on the teaching, not the teacher. Afraid you might find out you're wrong? I see you haven't given an interpretation of the scriptures I've provided. Apparently you don't want to address any teaching but just dismiss them because you don't like the teacher. That's fine too.

I do not know Ray comfort. To say that I do not like him is in error. I have saw his teachings and I strongly disagree with him. You'll have to do much better than that. And know I'm not afraid that I will find out I am wrong.

Also as I pointed out before this is not a hell thread so I will not go into lots of scripture and explainations of them. The fact is that the injustice protrayed in such teachings is as plain as the nose on your face some just refuse to see it.

 

[Soul Searcher]

"Let's also remember that same bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repenatnce. That he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, that he will give freely the waters of life to any who are a thrist."

That's true, He does desire that. But He also knows that not all will come. For those who will not come to Him, Hell is their punishment, because they don't want Christ as their savior, for whatever reason and have opted to take the punishment themselves.

Nonsense. God gets what God wants, no exceptions.

Ya know for a seeker, you seem to have it all figured out. Do you really wanna get into a debate about the various wills of God?

Been there done that, many times over. No matter how anyone twists the facts the injustice is not changed words are redefined, pagans myths twisted into doctorine and enteranl torture viewed as just by those who are blind. There really is no point in going over it.

Or perhaps it's pointless because you can't reason the doctrine of Hell away. I gave you scriptures that plainly teach on the last day people are going to Hell. You can call us blind and whatnot for taking God at His word. Whatever you have to do or say to make yourself feel better.

Taking God at his word? Give me a break. The bible tells us that God has sworn by himself that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It tells us that when it comes to saving people that with God all things are possible, that he will search for that one lost sheep until he finds it. We are given Paul as an example of the chief of all sinners who was converted in a flash the moment God chose to do so. Don't try and tell me that God can't or won't and don;t try to convince me that there is any justice in torturing the ignorant for eternity, there is no such thing as justice in such teachings.

People often over look the tons of scripture that affirm Gods will to save all of mankind and opt to read into the errant understanding of hell and eternity, both of which are very poor translations.

As for having it all figured out, no far from it but one thing I am sure of and that is that eternal hell fire doctorines are totally bogus and always have been. This is a subject I have studied for years don't think you can surprise me with a scripture, I've seen them all and don't think you can convince me there is justice done in such a thing as I am not that stupid.

 

[Zecryphon]

Nonsense. God gets what God wants, no exceptions.[/color][/font][/size][/color][/font]


Been there done that, many times over. No matter how anyone twists the facts the injustice is not changed words are redefined, pagans myths twisted into doctorine and enteranl torture viewed as just by those who are blind. There really is no point in going over it.

Taking God at his word? Give me a break. The bible tells us that God has sworn by himself that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It tells us that when it comes to saving people that with God all things are possible, that he will search for that one lost sheep until he finds it. We are given Paul as an example of the chief of all sinners who was converted in a flash the moment God chose to do so. Don't try and tell me that God can't or won't and don;t try to convince me that there is any justice in torturing the ignorant for eternity, there is no such thing as justice in such teachings.

People often over look the tons of scripture that affirm Gods will to save all of mankind and opt to read into the errant understanding of hell and eternity, both of which are very poor translations.

As for having it all figured out, no far from it but one thing I am sure of and that is that eternal hell fire doctorines are totally bogus and always have been. This is a subject I have studied for years don't think you can surprise me with a scripture, I've seen them all and don't think you can convince me there is justice done in such a thing as I am not that stupid.

Nonsense. God gets what God wants, no exceptions.

That sounds more like a Roger Waters song than scripture. Speaking of which do you have any to support your statement?



Quote:
Ya know for a seeker, you seem to have it all figured out. Do you really wanna get into a debate about the various wills of God?

"Been there done that, many times over. No matter how anyone twists the facts the injustice is not changed words are redefined, pagans myths twisted into doctorine and enteranl torture viewed as just by those who are blind. There really is no point in going over it."

Obviously not, you know everything already. LOL


Quote:
Or perhaps it's pointless because you can't reason the doctrine of Hell away. I gave you scriptures that plainly teach on the last day people are going to Hell. You can call us blind and whatnot for taking God at His word. Whatever you have to do or say to make yourself feel better.

"Taking God at his word? Give me a break. The bible tells us that God has sworn by himself that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It tells us that when it comes to saving people that with God all things are possible, that he will search for that one lost sheep until he finds it. We are given Paul as an example of the chief of all sinners who was converted in a flash the moment God chose to do so. Don't try and tell me that God can't or won't and don;t try to convince me that there is any justice in torturing the ignorant for eternity, there is no such thing as justice in such teachings."

Who said the people that are going to Hell are going there simply because they're ignorant? I haven't stated that. I think that's an assumption by you, that you're reading into what people are saying. Are you telling me that there are none that refuse the gift of salvation provide through Jesus Christ by God?

"People often over look the tons of scripture that affirm Gods will to save all of mankind and opt to read into the errant understanding of hell and eternity, both of which are very poor translations."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard this song and dance routine before and I still see no interpretation by you of the scriptures I provided. But hey as you say, it's pointless. You obviously have your mind made up, so that's that.

 

[IamRedeemed]

The Word says though that if it weren't for the law, we wouldn't know what sin is.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but
by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
and wouldn't understand how great the price of sin is, and therefore we couldn't
appreciate the work of the cross. Romans 7:7

So, people do need to understand the bad news
(condemned status before God outside of Christ)
because of sin, before they can appreciate the good news.

Unless people know why Christ went to the cross they cannot
appreciate on an individual basis how great the love of the Lord
is for them, and what He has done for them.

God bless

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
​

I admit... Hell fire preaching should be not the way to the good news. But? To try to deny there are consequences for rejecting Jesus Christ?

That's plain outright denial. For the Bible makes it clear that there is to be a Lake of Fire for all who rejected Christ.

If you want to call it unjust? That is one thing. But, to deny it will be that way? It makes no sense.

Revelation 20:14-15 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
​

To say that is unjust?

It says two things. God is a liar. God is unjust.

What such a person should be asking themselves...

"If, God is just? If, God does not lie?"

"Then... I am yet to understand God as he really is."


.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Until you brought up "Dante's Inferno" the other day, I was unfamiliar with it.
But I can tell you that when I see Lava, I know what a Lake of Fire looks like,
(which I believe is God's intent allowing us to see what one looks like)
and that doesn't look like a milk bath to me.

God bless!

ah, gotcha. I really haven't spent alot of time studying the concepts of hell or eternal damnation, I feel like its irrelevant with regards to where I'm going. From what i've gathered of it , though, it seems like alot of the common concept of hell is based alot on works like dante's inferno.

 

[Zecryphon]

The Word says though that if it weren't for the law, we wouldn't know what sin is.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but
by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
and wouldn't understand how great the price of sin is, and therefore we couldn't
appreciate the work of the cross. Romans 7:7

So, people do need to understand the bad news
(condemned status before God outside of Christ)
because of sin, before they can appreciate the good news.

Unless people know why Christ went to the cross they cannot
appreciate on an individual basis how great the love of the Lord
is for them, and what He has done for them.

God bless

Which is precisely why a presentation of the law of God is necessary in a witnessing encounter, before you present the good news of the gospel. The law and the gospel can work together, it doesn't have to be this either/or situation that modern day Christianity wants to make exist.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Even the devils believe and they bow their knees, call Him Lord and they at
least tremble! And we know their end is written in the Lake of Fire.

If all were going to be saved even after they are dead, having had the opportunity
to receive Christ and serve Him while they lived, Jesus would not have sent the
Disciples out to go and preach the good news to all people, and no one, the Apostles
or any of those martyred for the cause of Christ throughout the centuries to the
present time, would have been martyred, as there would have been no reason to be
martyred because there would not have been any urgency in getting the good news
to people so they can make a choice and choose LIFE or reject it.

The only ones who will be saved are those whose names are written in the
Lamb's Book of Life.

Those who reject Christ's sacrifice choose the second death.
They will not be saved.
Listen to me. The devil is a liar. His end is destruction.
Do you understand that? God has made His judgment against Him
already and a date has been set. Satan knows his time on the earth is short.
He is going to try to take as many with him as he can.

What better way to take you than to deceive you into thinking
everything is aok with your soul's destination?

Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that
look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Nonsense. God gets what God wants, no exceptions.[/color][/font][/size][/color][/font]


Been there done that, many times over. No matter how anyone twists the facts the injustice is not changed words are redefined, pagans myths twisted into doctorine and enteranl torture viewed as just by those who are blind. There really is no point in going over it.

Taking God at his word? Give me a break. The bible tells us that God has sworn by himself that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It tells us that when it comes to saving people that with God all things are possible, that he will search for that one lost sheep until he finds it. We are given Paul as an example of the chief of all sinners who was converted in a flash the moment God chose to do so. Don't try and tell me that God can't or won't and don;t try to convince me that there is any justice in torturing the ignorant for eternity, there is no such thing as justice in such teachings.

People often over look the tons of scripture that affirm Gods will to save all of mankind and opt to read into the errant understanding of hell and eternity, both of which are very poor translations.

As for having it all figured out, no far from it but one thing I am sure of and that is that eternal hell fire doctorines are totally bogus and always have been. This is a subject I have studied for years don't think you can surprise me with a scripture, I've seen them all and don't think you can convince me there is justice done in such a thing as I am not that stupid.

 

[Soul Searcher]

As I said before there is no point in even trying to talk with anyone so blind as to think that eternal torture is just. They simply have no idea what they are talking about and refuse to admit thier error.

And yes God gets what God wants,

Now you guys can poke fun and you can present your missleading opinions all you want the facts do not change. I did not claim to know everything exactly the opposite in fact. I do know beyond any doubt that eternal torture is evil to the utmost extent possible. I also know that hell fire doctorines are filled with double speak and ignorance of many scriptures but it seems that those believers have been conditioned in such a way as to not see any of them in the light of day and rather hold unto the illusion of eternal torture being just. How can anyone talk to such people rationally?

The bible tells us that there will come a time of a great delusion where people will believe a lie that they will call good evil and evil good. Many of those people would point out what I just said about eternal hell fire being evil as such an instance but what I speak is truth any one who can not see that torturing a helpless [yes we are helpless to defend ourselves against an infinite being] is evil and unjust has no concept of what the words even mean.

 

[mont974x4]

How about this, there is no sense in talking to someone who sees God as a quiet old grandpa figure instead being holy, righteous, and just? The Bible is clear, we are accountable for the choices we make and no one has an excuse. The people who end up in Hell deserve it.

 

[GenemZ]

If the devil told me that then it must not be scriptural, show me in scripture where I’m wrong. Show me a place where Jesus tells us that we have a right to harm anyone. Remember I’m talking about Christians, not people of the world. The world needs to use force, because it needs to have laws to stop people from doing evil.

Do you agree with Scripture???

You always do what it says literally? Without knowing the context?

Mark 9:47 (New International Version)
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
​

DO IT! Don't tell me your eye never caused you to sin in your heart! The Bible says that if you say you never sinned, that you are a liar and the truth is not in you!

1 John 1:10 (New International Version)
"If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
​

Taking things out of context and abusing them is where the Devil excels with a certain type of person who has a natural deep religious drive to prove themselves by works. They would be sacrificing to the gods if they lived in a pagan land.

Why do you think Muslims blow themselves up? Certain types of people if not protected by knowledge, will destroy themselves in the name of pleasing their god.

The Devil knows who they are. The difference between you and a Muslim, is that God's Word is alive and powerful here.. truly transforming the soul in the believer who walks in the Spirit and Truth. We see through you. But, we also can not see for you.

We are trying to reason with you. But, you are on your own personal Holy Jihad - with Christian trimmings. And, you also seem to be a person with a need for attention... which you will get here. For a season. Ignore buttons do wonders after a while.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 (New International Version)
"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions... "
​

In Christ, GeneZ




.

 

[Zecryphon]

As I said before there is no point in even trying to talk with anyone so blind as to think that eternal torture is just. They simply have no idea what they are talking about and refuse to admit thier error.

And yes God gets what God wants,

Now you guys can poke fun and you can present your missleading opinions all you want the facts do not change. I did not claim to know everything exactly the opposite in fact. I do know beyond any doubt that eternal torture is evil to the utmost extent possible. I also know that hell fire doctorines are filled with double speak and ignorance of many scriptures but it seems that those believers have been conditioned in such a way as to not see any of them in the light of day and rather hold unto the illusion of eternal torture being just. How can anyone talk to such people rationally?

The bible tells us that there will come a time of a great delusion where people will believe a lie that they will call good evil and evil good. Many of those people would point out what I just said about eternal hell fire being evil as such an instance but what I speak is truth any one who can not see that torturing a helpless [yes we are helpless to defend ourselves against an infinite being] is evil and unjust has no concept of what the words even mean.

We're not poking fun at you, we're trying to help you understand. But what do you do? You call us blind and misguided and say there is no point in talking with us. You have presented no facts that disprove what we're saying. So if you have some, start another thread on this subject and I know there will be plenty of people there to discuss it with you.