We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 11, 2008

Giver said:
Yes Jesus will punish all evildoers. Jesus is God and God is the Lawgiver and enforcer. People are not his instruments of enforcement. His angles will be called on to do his enforcement. You quote Revelations and it is shown very clearly what his angels will do.

(Matthew 26:51-54) At that, one of the followers of Jesus grasped his sword and drew it; he struck out at the high priests servant, and cut off his ear. Jesus then said: put you sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father who would promptly send more than twelve legions of angels to my defense?

You notice he didnt say he would have his followers protect him.

What about the fact that He had to be taken by them in accordance with prophecy? He is speaking in the same consistent theme of all of scripture. You reap what you sow. You live by the sword you die by the sword. You stand idly by and let innocent people be harmed then the same may come to you one day.

To have trust in God is good. God not only wants our trust, He also wants our actions. Which is more Godly, to let the innocent be hurt, or to defend them?

Giver · Jan 11, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
What about the fact that He had to be taken by them in accordance with prophecy? He is speaking in the same consistent theme of all of scripture. You reap what you sow. You live by the sword you die by the sword. You stand idly by and let innocent people be harmed then the same may come to you one day.

To have trust in God is good. God not only wants our trust, He also wants our actions. Which is more Godly, to let the innocent be hurt, or to defend them?

You want to believe that Christians have the right to kill so badly that you are blinded to Gods Word. Yes God wants our actions. The ones that we take to obey his Word.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 11, 2008

Giver said:
You want to believe that Christians have the right to kill so badly that you are blinded to God’s Word. Yes God wants our actions. The ones that we take to obey his Word.

Actually I am pacifistic, I just disagree that defending someone from harm is unjust. It's not about a right to kill at all. You'd rather bring a band-aid to the guy who cut himself while climbing through your window than to help his innocent victims.

I've already shown you several passages that explain that defending oneself is required of us. And also that Jesus made exceptions for the greater good.( Like gathering food on the sabbath ) You can argue that Jesus admonished peter for cutting the guard's ear, and interfering with His capture. But guess what? We are not all dying for the sins of the world, according to prophecy, are we?

And with the way trespassing laws work in this state, the moment a person is trespassing and threatens you/your family's safety, they sign the rights to their life away. Thank God for that.

Giver · Jan 11, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
Actually I am pacifistic, I just disagree that defending someone from harm is unjust. It's not about a right to kill at all. You'd rather bring a band-aid to the guy who cut himself while climbing through your window than to help his innocent victims.

I've already shown you several passages that explain that defending oneself is required of us. And also that Jesus made exceptions for the greater good.( Like gathering food on the sabbath ) You can argue that Jesus admonished peter for cutting the guard's ear, and interfering with His capture. But guess what? We are not all dying for the sins of the world, according to prophecy, are we?

And with the way trespassing laws work in this state, the moment a person is trespassing and threatens you/your family's safety, they sign the rights to their life away. Thank God for that.

You say that there are scriptures that say we have a right to use physical force to defend our property or our life, or someone elses Life. Please show me again I sure missed them.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 11, 2008

[bible]exodus 22:2-3[/bible]
[bible]proverbs 25:26[/bible]

and don't tell me all this mumbo jumbo completion stuff. If the OT teachings were not important, then Christ would not have said "It is written" so many times, now would He?

GenemZ · Jan 11, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
[bible]exodus 22:2-3[/bible]
[bible]proverbs 25:26[/bible]

and don't tell me all this mumbo jumbo completion stuff. If the OT teachings were not important, then Christ would not have said "It is written" so many times, now would He?

Here's some more for you to stand on!

The OT was all they had in the beginning of the Church age!

What did the writer of Hebrews, say?

Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)
"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

That's verse 12.

We should go back and read Chapter three, and all the verses leading up to Hebrews 4:12! What do we find? All OT passages being referred to, or quoted! All being used to teach the Church!

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

It does not say, "some Scripture."

At the time of writing, the basis for Scripture was primarily the OT! The NT was still fragmented and incomplete at that point!

2 Timothy 3:15 (New International Version)
"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

When was Timothy born?

Timothy was born when there was only OT Scripture. Paul calls them " the Holy Scriptures."

But? If Jesus appears to me tomorrow, and tells me this is not true?

Then what?

.

Giver · Jan 13, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
[bible]exodus 22:2-3[/bible]
[bible]proverbs 25:26[/bible]

and don't tell me all this mumbo jumbo completion stuff. If the OT teachings were not important, then Christ would not have said "It is written" so many times, now would He?

It doesnt matter how many times he said: it is written. Jesus told us that he came to complete the Word. The following is one place where He completed the Old Laws Word.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

(Romans 12:18-21) Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to Gods anger. As scripture says: vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises, but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.

GenemZ · Jan 13, 2008

Giver said:
It doesnt matter how many times he said: it is written. Jesus told us that he came to complete the Word. The following is one place where He completed the Old Laws Word.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

(Romans 12:18-21) Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to Gods anger. As scripture says: vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises, but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.

A man who is raping your wife is not simply persecuting you. A man who is raping your wife is not simply slapping your face. He is not simply your enemy. He is an enemy to all.

Jesus did not say anything about self defense in the face of serious bodily harm. A slap in the face is hardly anything to compare with someone about to kill your children.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarstheir place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Why should we listen to you? Because you say Jesus spoke to you? That he only speaks to you???

That's nonsense.

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."

My Jesus does no suffer from multiple personality disorder. he does not say one thing, then say the opposite the next moment. That passage was to be included in what is the COMPLETED canon of Scripture! Jesus was not quoting OT Scripture there! He said it as something not found in Scripture before!

Giver · Jan 13, 2008

genez said:
A man who is raping your wife is not simply persecuting you. A man who is raping your wife is not simply slapping your face. He is not simply your enemy. He is an enemy to all.

Jesus did not say anything about self defense in the face of serious bodily harm. A slap in the face is hardly anything to compare with someone about to kill your children.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarstheir place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Why should we listen to you? Because you say Jesus spoke to you? That he only speaks to you???

That's nonsense.

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."

My Jesus does no suffer from multiple personality disorder. he does not say one thing, then say the opposite the next moment. That passage was to be included in what is the COMPLETED canon of Scripture! Jesus was not quoting OT Scripture there! He said it as something not found in Scripture before!

He didnt have to say anything but:
(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

(Romans 12:18-21) Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to Gods anger. As scripture says: vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises, but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.

Because people dont have enough faith to trust that Jesus will take care of them, the will disobey his Word and rely on their own selves to defend themselves. What a sad situation the people of God have gotten themselves into. Satan has deceived so many that the truth is now laughed at.

GenemZ · Jan 13, 2008

Giver said:
He didnt have to say anything but:
(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

A rapist raping your wife in front of you, is not persecuting you. You have lost the context of why it was said.

A rapist is a criminal, not simply an enemy.

A criminal is an enemy, sure... But not all enemies are criminal. Persecution, Jesus spoke of was speaking in reference to the likes of the Judaizers with Paul, and the Gnostics with the church.

The Bible says, Cowards will not enter into the Kingdom of God. The passage I showed you reveals this. It does not say the frightened. It says, "cowards." A brave man may be frightened, but he is not a coward where his fear rules over him, and he submits.

So much for that..... You are back on my ignore list once more.

Giver · Jan 13, 2008

genez said:
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A rapist raping your wife in front of you, is not persecuting you. You have lost the context of why it was said.

A rapist is a criminal, not simply an enemy.

A criminal is an enemy, sure... But not all enemies are criminal. Persecution, Jesus spoke of was speaking in reference to the likes of the Judaizers with Paul, and the Gnostics with the church.

The Bible says, Cowards will not enter into the Kingdom of God. The passage I showed you reveals this. It does not say the frightened. It says, "cowards." A brave man may be frightened, but he is not a coward where his fear rules over him, and he submits.

So much for that..... You are back on my ignore list once more.

You ignore the truth, so why wouldnt you ignore me? You even say something is scriptural and it isnt. So you sure are not truth.

GenemZ · Jan 13, 2008

Utilize the Ignore button as needed.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 14, 2008

Giver said:
You ignore the truth, so why wouldnt you ignore me? You even say something is scriptural and it isnt. So you sure are not truth.

I'm still reading your replies, since I'm compelled to try to understand how exactly you have come to your conclusion.

Do you believe that God works through people? What if it is YOUR position at that time to defend the innocent? Gonna stand by and wait for God to handle it? Reminds me of the story the little kid told on that movie 'the pursuit of happyness'.
A guy was stranded on his rooftop during a flood, and the water kept rising. A boat came by and told him to get in, and he said 'no thanks, God's gonna save me'. Few minutes pass, and another boat comes by and asks him to get in. He says 'no thanks, God's gonna save me.' By this time the man can barely hang on, and a 3rd boat stops and demands that he gets in with them. He replied again, 'no thanks, God's gonna save me'.

So the man drowns, and is standing before God. The man asks God, 'why didn't you save me?' And God replied, "I sent 3 boats for you."

I hope this thread is just a big joke to be honest.

Giver · Jan 14, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
I'm still reading your replies, since I'm compelled to try to understand how exactly you have come to your conclusion.

Do you believe that God works through people? What if it is YOUR position at that time to defend the innocent? Gonna stand by and wait for God to handle it? Reminds me of the story the little kid told on that movie 'the pursuit of happyness'.
A guy was stranded on his rooftop during a flood, and the water kept rising. A boat came by and told him to get in, and he said 'no thanks, God's gonna save me'. Few minutes pass, and another boat comes by and asks him to get in. He says 'no thanks, God's gonna save me.' By this time the man can barely hang on, and a 3rd boat stops and demands that he gets in with them. He replied again, 'no thanks, God's gonna save me'.

So the man drowns, and is standing before God. The man asks God, 'why didn't you save me?' And God replied, "I sent 3 boats for you."

I hope this thread is just a big joke to be honest.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

So you think Jesus was joking? You had better pray that he excepts your excuse.

Do you ever ask yourself why Jesus said many are called but few are chosen? Do the Christians you know live any differently than the rest of the people you know?

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 14, 2008

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you:offer the wicked man no resistance.

So you think Jesus was joking? You had better pray that he excepts your excuse.

My excuse? You really are serious about this aren't you? Understand the passage in which you preach my friend. You are basing your entire ideology on a few verses of scripture that are taken completely out of context and used for the purpose of furthering your ridiculous claim.

You didn't answer my question, do you think that God works through people?

Do you ever ask yourself why Jesus said many are called but few are chosen? Do the Christians you know live any differently than the rest of the people you know?

because many people go to church every sunday to get out of hell. I don't know many practicing Christians, but most that I know do act differently. They act in love, not for their own self-gratification, but for God.

Okay heres another scenario. Lets say you live in a apartment buildling. You come home one day and its on fire. Your family and neighbors are inside. You could run inside and save some people. What do you do? Do you stand there and wait for God to put it out?

Giver · Jan 14, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
My excuse? You really are serious about this aren't you? Understand the passage in which you preach my friend. You are basing your entire ideology on a few verses of scripture that are taken completely out of context and used for the purpose of furthering your ridiculous claim.
You say Im taking the verses out of context. Now because you say that everyone should accept that what I have been saying is wrong? I wonder what you will tell Jesus when you tell him that?

You didn't answer my question, do you think that God works through people?
Wow! You I suppose are going to tell me that God uses his people to do his killing for him. You want to believe that God would tell people not to do something and then turn right around and tell them to do what he said not to do?

because many people go to church every sunday to get out of hell. I don't know many practicing Christians, but most that I know do act differently. They act in love, not for their own self-gratification, but for God.

Okay heres another scenario. Lets say you live in a apartment buildling. You come home one day and its on fire. Your family and neighbors are inside. You could run inside and save some people. What do you do? Do you stand there and wait for God to put it out?

Well you say the Christians you know love. How many do you know have more than they need to live on, in the bank?

(1 John 3:17) If a man who was rich enough in this worlds goods saw that one of his brothers was in need, but closed his heart to him, how could the love of God be living in him?

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.
We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

GenemZ · Jan 14, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
My excuse? You really are serious about this aren't you? Understand the passage in which you preach my friend. You are basing your entire ideology on a few verses of scripture that are taken completely out of context and used for the purpose of furthering your ridiculous claim.

You didn't answer my question, do you think that God works through people?

because many people go to church every sunday to get out of hell. I don't know many practicing Christians, but most that I know do act differently. They act in love, not for their own self-gratification, but for God.

Okay heres another scenario. Lets say you live in a apartment buildling. You come home one day and its on fire. Your family and neighbors are inside. You could run inside and save some people. What do you do? Do you stand there and wait for God to put it out?

This thread already contains enough absolute truth to put an end to this debate. Its ended. The only thing that perpetuates posting here is denial of the truth. And, a denial of the other side of not being able to accept that some people desire and love to be deceived. For, it gains them the attention they desire and crave. They need to feel special.

Leave it at that.

.

Giver · Jan 14, 2008

genez said:
This thread already contains enough absolute truth to put an end to this debate. Its ended. The only thing that perpetuates posting here is denial of the truth. And, a denial of the other side of not being able to accept that some people desire and love to be deceived. For, it gains them the attention they desire and crave. They need to feel special.

Leave it at that.

.

Why dont you try to show me where Christians before Constantine served in an armed force of any government? If you believe you are so right show me the scripture that refute Jesus Word.

Zecryphon · Jan 14, 2008

Giver said:
Why dont you try to show me where Christians before Constantine served in an armed force of any government? If you believe you are so right show me the scripture that refute Jesus Word.

Ya know for someone who claims to only be here "to give a word" you sure do have alot to say and certainly do have an attitude about you of "I'm right, you're all wrong." People who usually come to give a word, do so and then GIVE IT A REST!

Giver · Jan 14, 2008

Zecryphon said:
Ya know for someone who claims to only be here "to give a word" you sure do have alot to say and certainly do have an attitude about you of "I'm right, you're all wrong." People who usually come to give a word, do so and then GIVE IT A REST!

So Im not usual. What you should know is that as long I can keep this thread going there will be more and more people reading what I have to share. There may be a few that read this who will wonder if they might be wrong. Hopefully then will go to Jesus and ask.

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Jet+Jetslove=2gether4ever :)

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