We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Giver]

This thread is about doing what is right in a self defense situation. David was in a self defense situation, but please give me a New Testament example of a follower of Christ, being told to harm anyone for self defense reasons, or any other. This is relevant because Jesus set those who had died already free when He went into hell and got them. This tells me that He gave them all a chance to receive Him. After his resurrection, and even while He was walking around on earth, His message was always about sacrifice rather than protection of our physical selves.

The issue of this thread is: God has told his people not to Harm/hurt anyone one for any reason. Jesus told us love our enemies.

As for protecting our property he told us not to try and get it back if stolen. He told us to be meek. He called us his sheep.

A Christian using a weapon against another human is a wolf disguised as a sheep.

 

[2theBone]

If you choose to defend yourself with a gun or chemical or a taser, you will do well to get professional training. They not only teach you things that will keep you alive in a complicated situation.......

They teach you about the law--beginning with your call to 911 (lose your macho and don't say anything that sounds aggressive). If you survive an armed confrontation you will need to know what to say to the police (nothing) and know that you will need a lawyer and that you will face possible prosecution and lawsuits.

Bad guys have relatives who will swear that they are angels who would never hurt a fly and were the sole source of support for a family of 15 hungry babies.......and a jury may sympathize.

This is all FAR more complicated than just shooting the bad guy and being viewed as a hero. It will change your life forever after.

It's a big deal that will cause you pain, financial loss (at least attorney fees, potentially much more) and stress for years.

As far as the spiritual aspects: Jesus was a pacifist. God refused to exercise capital punishment in the case of murder of Able by Caine.

Human life is sacred, even that of a bad guy.

God would like nothing better than for you to trust totally in God and give up your life before killing another. That's ultimate trust and it takes the ultimate person to possess such trust.

Most of us, unfortunately, are not there.

So there you have it.

Again, my best advice is to get a small dog. The barking will cause the bad guy to go elsewhere and find an easy uncomplicated place to rob in 99.9 percent of the situations.

Besides, dogs are great companions.

 

[GenemZ]

If you choose to defend yourself with a gun or chemical or a taser, you will do well to get professional training. They not only teach you things that will keep you alive in a complicated situation.......

They teach you about the law--beginning with your call to 911 (lose your macho and don't say anything that sounds aggressive). If you survive an armed confrontation you will need to know what to say to the police (nothing) and know that you will need a lawyer and that you will face possible prosecution and lawsuits.

Bad guys have relatives who will swear that they are angels who would never hurt a fly and were the sole source of support for a family of 15 hungry babies.......and a jury may sympathize.

This is all FAR more complicated than just shooting the bad guy and being viewed as a hero. It will change your life forever after.

It's a big deal that will cause you pain, financial loss (at least attorney fees, potentially much more) and stress for years.

As far as the spiritual aspects: Jesus was a pacifist. God refused to exercise capital punishment in the case of murder of Able by Caine.

Human life is sacred, even that of a bad guy.

God would like nothing better than for you to trust totally in God and give up your life before killing another. That's ultimate trust and it takes the ultimate person to possess such trust.

Most of us, unfortunately, are not there.

So there you have it.

Again, my best advice is to get a small dog. The barking will cause the bad guy to go elsewhere and find an easy uncomplicated place to rob in 99.9 percent of the situations.

Besides, dogs are great companions.

Jesus was not a pacifist. He taught the Jews how to survive while under occupation of Rome which forced them into a mode of submission in order to survive. It was not a situation of normal self defense.

He, in turn, came with one purpose - to die. We have not been called to die for the sins of the world.

Now? As he is now? He will slaughter millions in a day.

He told the disciples there will be wars and rumors of wars. He told them not to be alarmed. He did not tell them believers are not to serve if called.

1 Corinthians 14:8 (New International Version)
"Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?"
​

Paul spoke as if the military was commonly acceptable knowledge in the church. He spoke of it in an honorable way.


... As just another occupation deemed a norm amongst those in the church.

1 Corinthians 9:7 (New International Version)
"Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?"
​

If we are to be pacifists? Why use such illustrations? It would be like saying... "does not a prostitute work hard for her money?" If we were to be pacifists there would be no honor associated with the call to battle.


Jesus highly commended the faith of the Centurion. The Centurion was a trained killer for the security of Rome. He said the Centurion's example revealed the greatest faith he had seen in all of Israel!

Come off it... pacifism is an excuse that timid types grab onto as to cling to their past to remain cowards, because they fear the battle for their soul... Which if they found victory by God's grace, would make them strong as a person when called for. I am talking about mental attitude strength. Napoleon was not a big powerful man. By sight, he may have been thought of as a push over. He had mental attitude strength.



Besides... nothing was to change for the Christian who was in the military.

Acts 10:7 (New International Version)
"When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants."

​

A devout thief? A devout prostitute? Now, that would not sound right. Would it?


Now, learn some history about the early church...

http://bibleprobe.com/theban.html


In Christ, GeneZ


note: If you want to learn about Jesus saying, if one wishes to save his life, will lose it. Mention it, and it will be in another post.



.

 

[2theBone]

You are working VERY hard to twist the Bible to fit your own paradigm for behavior.

Jesus was clearly a pacifist but his GOD was not a pacifist.

Jesus, like many Jews, expected God to intervene and crush the Romans.

He was sincere. He ACTUALLY believed all the things he said.

He was wrong. It didn't happen.

Thus, "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Jesus spoke much wisdom and was a great man, but he was wrong in his belief that God would intervene to save him and bring a new Jewish Kingdom where no oppressor could ever dominate them again.

It just didn't happen. No reason to think any less of Jesus, he was a product of his people and his religious movement, the Pharisees. He was good and honest and true.

It was Paul that corrupted the memory and rewrote the story.

 

[GenemZ]

You are working VERY hard to twist the Bible to fit your own paradigm for behavior.

Its hard for those who are unable to get it.

Jesus was clearly a pacifist but his GOD was not a pacifist.

Is the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save the life of his brothers? A pacifist?

Jesus, like many Jews, expected God to intervene and crush the Romans.

Really?

He was sincere. He ACTUALLY believed all the things he said.

He was wrong. It didn't happen.

Thus, "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

He was forsaken, because at that moment our sins were being imputed to him. God the Father could no longer fellowship with his humanity for that reason... For it was his humanity that was offered as a substitute for us all.

Hebrews 10:5 (New International Version)
"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me."
​

Jesus spoke much wisdom and was a great man, but he was wrong in his belief that God would intervene to save him and bring a new Jewish Kingdom where no oppressor could ever dominate them again.

What?... the heck are you talking about?

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International Version)
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."


​

You're trying to force sense into what you can not make sense of. Instead of finding out why something was so, and Jesus remain consistent to who he was.... You make excuses and rationalize away what you can not grasp in your soulish thinking.

Did you read my link? That was at a time when the Word of God was still fresh in everyone's teaching. Christians have not been called to be pacifists. If they had? We would all be reading the Koran today...only!

Not, stop trying to pretend that you understand what you are not capable of...



​

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."




​

.
​

 

[2theBone]

He was sincere. He ACTUALLY believed all the things he said.

He was wrong. It didn't happen.

Thus, "My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Response:

He was forsaken, because at that moment our sins were being imputed to him. God the Father could no longer fellowship with his humanity for that reason...

Wow, what utter mumbo-jumbo.

No reasonable person could believe anything other than that which is there very clearly in black and white, but you come up with a tortured excuse that is nothing more than meaningless religio-babble.

Jesus thought God had forsaken him when God did not intervene to take him down from the cross......so he asked God why he had forsaken him.

It's as simple as that, and ten pages of religio-babble will not fix it.

 

[GenemZ]

Wow, what utter mumbo-jumbo.

No reasonable person could believe anything other than that which is there very clearly in black and white, but you come up with a tortured excuse that is nothing more than meaningless religio-babble.

You know and understand as much about the Bible, as you think I understand about self defense with a gun.

You are trying to force understanding in a way you are able to understand. I will repeat....

Read the following real slow.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International Version)

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
​

Let it sink in.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Unfortunately that verse has been used to death to preach nonsense as gospel saying basically if you don't understand or believe what I'm saying then you don't have the spirit but I do. The result not only appears to be nonsense it is nonsense.

 

[2theBone]

Genez, your repeating of nonsense and pretending it is wisdom is the rankest folly.

Here's the truth: Everything they taught you in Bible study is wrong.

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden from the church and the church had no opportunity to rewrite them as was done with the Gospels.

The NT is revisionist history and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove it.

 

[WarEagle]

Jesus was clearly a pacifist but his GOD was not a pacifist.

I hate to break this to you, but Jesus is God.

Was Jesus a pacifist when He ordered the Israelites to slaughter His enemies? Was He a pacifist when He instituted capital punishment? Was He a pacifist when He made a whip and attacked the vendors in the temple? Was He a pacifist when He ordered His disciples to go out and buy swords to defend themselves with? Is He a pacifist when He uses militaristic language to describe His return when He will slaughter His enemies?

Exactly where in scripture do we see Jesus being a pacifist?

Jesus, like many Jews, expected God to intervene and crush the Romans.

He did? Where in the Bible do we see this?

Thus, "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Actually, Jesus is quoting a passage from Psalms in order to fulfil a prophecy.


[uote]Jesus spoke much wisdom and was a great man, but he was wrong in his belief that God would intervene to save him and bring a new Jewish Kingdom where no oppressor could ever dominate them again.[/quote]

So, when did Jesus ever say that God would intervene to save Him and bring a new Jewish kingdom?

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but according to mine, Jesus knew from the beginning that He was going to die and never expected the Father to stop it.

He was good and honest and true.

If He told devoutly religious people that they must leave their sincerely held religious beliefs to follow Him because their eternal destiny rested on Him, when He knew that this was a lie, then He is not good.

If He knew that He was not God when He claimed to be God, then He is neither honest nor true.

It was Paul that corrupted the memory and rewrote the story.

Paul did not write the Gospels.

 

[WarEagle]

The issue of this thread is: God has told his people not to Harm/hurt anyone one for any reason.

What verse is that?

If this is true, then why did Jesus make a whip and beat the vendors in the temple? Why did Jesus order His disciples to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with? Why didn't He rebuke Peter for cutting off the soldier's ear?

Jesus told us love our enemies.

That's right. How does that translate into allowing someone to do violence to us or our family members or an innocent person?

As for protecting our property he told us not to try and get it back if stolen. He told us to be meek. He called us his sheep.

What does being meek have to do with not protecting yourself? Meek doesn't mean timid or cowardly. It means someone who is teachable.

When did Jesus ever say that we shouldn't try to get our stolen property back?

A Christian using a weapon against another human is a wolf disguised as a sheep.

So, was Jesus a wolf disguised as a sheep when he used a whip against another human?

 

[GenemZ]

Genez, your repeating of nonsense and pretending it is wisdom is the rankest folly.

Here's the truth: Everything they taught you in Bible study is wrong.

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

The Jews in Israel hated Paul. They were legalistic to the core.

Acts 21:20 (New International Version)

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law."
​

The Jewish believers, including the unbelieving Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, were incapable of understanding the grace of God that Paul was sent to preach. They hated Paul. They were still trying to live under the old Law, not grace. They hated Paul.

Acts 13:44-45 (New International Version)

​

"On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying."
​

Acts 21:27-31 (New International Version)

​

"When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple.

They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, "Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple area and defiled this holy place." (They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple area.)
​

The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut. While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar."​

Those haters who were REJECTING God's grace, hated Paul with a vehemence. They were of the same mind set of those who murdered during the Inquisitions.

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

First.. Get your facts straight..... The Essenes were not even Christians. They were a sect of Judaism.

For your information. I was a Jew before believing in Christ.

I understand why some hated Paul as they did. They were very wrong. Like you are wrong.

Yet, they still thought they had to be absolutely right. Just like...




.

 

[GenemZ]

Unfortunately that verse has been used to death to preach nonsense as gospel saying basically if you don't understand or believe what I'm saying then you don't have the spirit but I do. The result not only appears to be nonsense it is nonsense.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International Version)


​

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
​

​

It applies to whom it will apply. To those to whom it applies, excuses will be offered.

It still remains.




.

 

[2theBone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2theBone
Jesus was clearly a pacifist but his GOD was not a pacifist.

Response:

I hate to break this to you, but Jesus is God.

No, he wasn't. And even more important.....the real God is not a murderous monster as many of the Jewish cultural myths portray him.

Exactly where in scripture do we see Jesus being a pacifist?

How about, "Offer no resistance to the evil man."

Quote:
Jesus, like many Jews, expected God to intervene and crush the Romans.

He did? Where in the Bible do we see this?

He said he was King of the Jews and his kingdom was coming soon. Obviously HE was helpless to overthrow the Romans, so he must have expected God to intervene as the prophets had predicted.

Quote:
"My God, why have you forsaken me?"

In this statement, Jesus is quoting a passage from Psalms in order to fulfil a prophecy.

No. That's just another really far-fetched excuse. Truth is, Jesus was an honest man who believed that he was the great leader predicted by the prophets......and he finally, as he was dying, believed that God had forsaken him for some unknown reason......thus the question above.

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but according to mine, Jesus knew from the beginning that He was going to die and never expected the Father to stop it.

The Bible is a whitewashed version of Paul's history, revised by the early followers of Paul to reflect Paul's Gospel.

Quote:
He was good and honest and true.

If He told devoutly religious people that they must leave their sincerely held religious beliefs to follow Him because their eternal destiny rested on Him, when He knew that this was a lie, then He is not good.

He did not know it was a lie. He believed it.

If He knew that He was not God when He claimed to be God, then He is neither honest nor true.

He never claimed to be God, he thought he was the Messiah that the prophets predicted. That Messiah WAS NOT supposed to be God and Jesus knew that well.

Quote:
It was Paul that corrupted the memory and rewrote the story.

Paul did not write the Gospels.

Paul preached and wrote beginning in the 40s and 50s CE. The Gospels were written by converts to his new religion and rewritten later by the early church leaders to agree with the evolving "Christianity" of Paul.

Now I know that this is all very new and shocking to you, but just think of it this way......

EVERYTHING you know about Paul was told to you by who?

Paul and his disciple Luke.

You probably never realized that before.

What Paul and Luke sold was swamp land in Florida.

 

[2theBone]

First.. Get your facts straight..... The Essenes were not even Christians. They were a sect of Judaism

Nobody here has said the Essenes were Christians.

 

[GenemZ]

Nobody here has said the Essenes were Christians.

Then it was stupid to say....

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

 

[Soul Searcher]

It applies to whom it will apply. To those to whom it applies, excuses will be offered.

It still remains. .

Yes I suppose it does, if it applies to anyone at all, but what we see more often than not is someone using it as a way of saying they are right and if you had the spirit you would understand. I do not think that is the intent of the verse and many who claim to understand actually do not and then they spout nonsense and use this verse to cover themselves.

 

[2theBone]

Then it was stupid to say....

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

How would that make the Essenes Christians?

 

[GenemZ]

How would that make the Essenes Christians?

I never said the Essenes, were. You were trying to use their writings [Dead Sea Scrolls] to be a basis to evaluate Paul.

The further this goes, the less sense you are making. It seems that you make statements as to indicate a point, but ... for some reason... you do not seem to be aware of what that point may be.

This is becoming more clear every day as the Dead Sea Scrolls bring the truth about Paul to light.

It makes no sense in view of not getting your own points. Either that, or you are deliberately not being straight with me.

I think it would be better to try to find someone else to try and convince with what you have convinced yourself of. You are categorically out of your area of understanding.

 

[2theBone]

You were trying to use their writings [Dead Sea Scrolls] to be a basis to evaluate Paul.

So what does that have to do with them being Christians?

I didn't say they were Christians.......no reason anyone should think they were Christians if they were calling Paul a windbag liar.

Paul was the one who INVENTED Christianity........if they were Christians they'd be his friend.

Is it clear now?