We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Zecryphon]

I know we are talking about capital punishment on earth but when I read your
statement I immediately thought of Romans 6:23, and how the death penalty is
still in effect for those of us not washed in the blood of Jesus. As those not
washed in the blood of Jesus having been redeemed will be judged and receive
as sentence the death penalty from God.

Of course that is the second death and much more final than the death of
our bodies here on earth.

Just a thought......

This is where I'm coming from. I can't agree with the assertion that God no longer requires death or has changed his mind on the death penalty since Jesus' crucifxion. That would mean that God changes His mind. If God changes His mind, which has never been one of His attributes, how can we be assured we have salvation? It could be easily asserted that God changed His mind about that too, and there'd be really no way to disprove it. Very troubling stuff.

 

[lighthousekid]

This is where I'm coming from. I can't agree with the assertion that God no longer requires death or has changed his mind on the death penalty since Jesus' crucifxion. That would mean that God changes His mind. If God changes His mind, which has never been one of His attributes, how can we be assured we have salvation? It could be easily asserted that God changed His mind about that too, and there'd be really no way to disprove it. Very troubling stuff.

I was speaking about the moral question of the death penalty by the state, of course, which is not required by God.

 

[IamRedeemed]

This is where I'm coming from. I can't agree with the assertion that God no longer requires death or has changed his mind on the death penalty since Jesus' crucifxion. That would mean that God changes His mind. If God changes His mind, which has never been one of His attributes, how can we be assured we have salvation? It could be easily asserted that God changed His mind about that too, and there'd be really no way to disprove it. Very troubling stuff.

That's true.

I was speaking about the moral question of the death penalty by the state, of course, which is not required by God.

It is not forbidden or by any other means "done away with" by God either.
Personally my only concern is that each one receiving the death penalty
be ministered the Gospel message to and have the opportunity to receive or
reject Christ's atonement, because once they are dead, they no longer have
an opportunity, and that is an eternal situation. And I believe as Christians,
THAT is where our moral obligation is.

 

[Zecryphon]

I was speaking about the moral question of the death penalty by the state, of course, which is not required by God.

"I was speaking about the moral question of the death penalty by the state, of course, which is not required by God."

Okay, that's true. Now do you think that if a state does have the death penalty that they are going against the word of God or God's standard?

 

[Soul Searcher]

No we wouldn't.

I think that murders are to be executed.

If you Obey God and do this execution you are not a murderer or really a killer.

You are part of a group that executes God Judgment.

Murder is a term deemed by man, and it is man that determines when a killing is murder and when it is not. God commands "Thou shalt not kill" and one who kills another is a killer no matter how you look at it. Sure there can be some justification but the person is still dead and the one who killed them is still a killer and to think of yourself as Gods executioner is just sick imo.

 

[tapero]

Wrong. Read his statement again. He said that God does not require the death penalty. For that statement to be true, you would have to believe that God has changed His stance on the death penalty after Jesus died for our sins. God does not change, that is one of His attributes. He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.



Yeah, God never wiped out entire cities of people who lived in opposition to Him, right. LOL



So people decide for themselves that which is right and wrong?



We are to be in this world, but not of it. Since we are to be in this world and Jesus gave us that command as part of Matthew 28:19-20, when he told his disciples to go into the world to spread the gospel.


Mat 28:19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,Mat 28:20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

How can we make disciples of all nations if we are not to be in the world? Now take a look at 1 Peter 2:13-15.


1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.


The study notes in my Bible for these verses are:

"The meaning of "submit" in the Greek is "to order oneself under, or according to, a given relationship" or "to live acccording to the governmental order." Clearly here the notion of submitting to the government is secondary to that of obeying God and doing his will."


In the state of Arizona I have been given the right to defend myself against a lethal threat. By doing so I am submitting myself to the government and thus obeying and honoring God. I hope I never have to defend myself to the point of taking a life, but I am prepared to do so, if need be. There are people who disagree with this and that's fine, but I think people take it too far, as Giver has, by saying that if you offer the wicked man resistance you are not a true sheep or follower of God.




Even though, the majority of the founding fathers were Christians, and founded this nation upon Christian principles, I do agree with you. The government has not established Christianity as the national religion of the USA.



I never said this. My statement was directed at God's character. God did demand the death penalty in the past and there's no reason to think He has changed His mind on the matter.



Yes it is. For the wages of sin is what? Death. It is appointed to man to die once and then judgment. God definitely requires death. The scriptures also mention a second death after judgment for those who have not trusted in Christ Jesus for salvation. So death has not been done away with, as you seem to be suggesting. You're basically saying that since Jesus died for our sins God no longer requires death and will not give it as a punishment. That's putting limits on God. Aren't you the one who's all about not putting God in a box? All who sin to this day, are sentenced to death by God. The only way for people to escape that death by God, is to repent of their sins and have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation and eternal life.



What's the difference? Is a commandment not a requirement set by God for us and what we are to do as followers of Christ?



We also seek to keep the 10 Commandments which are found in the OT.



How do you know they're not?

[All scripture quotations and study notes from the Archaeological Bible NIV by Zondervan Publishing]

Hi, you might be better off not replying to my posts, tho you can of course, is just no sense to, as will not be read nor replied to by me.

Just an FYI

 

[Zecryphon]

Murder is a term deemed by man, and it is man that determines when a killing is murder and when it is not. God commands "Thou shalt not kill" and one who kills another is a killer no matter how you look at it. Sure there can be some justification but the person is still dead and the one who killed them is still a killer and to think of yourself as Gods executioner is just sick imo.

In Exodus 20:13 ESV the command given is:

Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.

So I don't believe the words murder and kill are interchangable. Plus, why would God sanction killing in some parts of the Bible if the commandment were not to kill? He'd be a hypocrite then, wouldn't He?

 

[tapero]

That's true.[/quote}

this is in reply to where one wrote and said God does not change his mind, and above was your reply to that.

Hi, God changes His mind throughout the old testament. People take the verse where God says am I am man that I do not change my mind? Which is not answered in that verse by God. And wrap their theology around such verse, neglecting the many places God does change his mind.

Personally my only concern is that each one receiving the death penalty
be ministered the Gospel message to and have the opportunity to receive or
reject Christ's atonement, because once they are dead, they no longer have
an opportunity, and that is an eternal situation. And I believe as Christians,
THAT is where our moral obligation is.

I think what occurs is that prisoners are asked what they desire, or who they desire to speak to them as pertains to religion or faith, and so what they recieve is what they ask for, if they ask for, and whatever faith they ask for. So, they may ask for any faith chaplain to visit them, if they do ask for such.

So, is not in our hands to be able to preach the gospel to all on death row.

As it's their choice as to what they ask for. Hopefully those who ask for one who claims Chrisitianity, hopefully those chaplains or prison chaplains preach the gospel, which of course they may not though depending on if they themselves are believers.

 

[Zecryphon]

Hi, you might be better off not replying to my posts, tho you can of course, is just no sense to, as will not be read nor replied to by me.

Just an FYI

My replies to your posts are not just for your benefit but for the benfit of others who read these forums as well. You can ignore them as you see fit. I really don't care.

 

[Soul Searcher]

In Exodus 20:13 ESV the command given is:

Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.

So I don't believe the words murder and kill are interchangable. Plus, why would God sanction killing in some parts of the Bible if the commandment were not to kill? He'd be a hypocrite then, wouldn't He?

ESV? I guess if you look at enough versions you can find one with the wording you like. The word according to BDB means murder, slay, kill and it is translated as kill in most bibles.

As for God sanctioning the murder of people I do not think he did, I think some power hungry rulers convinced people that he did and it got recorded in our bibles. And yes I say murder because there are instances int he bible where God supposedly sanctioned mass murder of neighboring people.

As for the wording I find the Essene version the most interesting and probably the most accurate which states Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing for profit nor for pleasure nor shall you torment it. Yet if it is in self defense or defense of others is permitted.

 

[IamRedeemed]

As Christians, if we know someone is on death row, we should request to see them.
If they will see us, we will then do what God has called us to do. I didn't say a
thing about what the law or the world should do. What would the world care?
They don't know the way of salvation. But we do.

I said THAT is my only concern, that they be afforded the opportunity to
hear the Gospel and receive or reject it.

How that comes about is OUR duty.
As Christians we insure that opportunity comes about,
by availing ourselves to God as vessels and He makes the way.
I am not speaking as a matter of secular policy.

Hope you now understand where I am coming from.

God bless.

That's true.[/quote}

this is in reply to where one wrote and said God does not change his mind, and above was your reply to that.

Hi, God changes His mind throughout the old testament. People take the verse where God says am I am man that I do not change my mind? Which is not answered in that verse by God. And wrap their theology around such verse, neglecting the many places God does change his mind.







I think what occurs is that prisoners are asked what they desire, or who they desire to speak to them as pertains to religion or faith, and so what they recieve is what they ask for, if they ask for, and whatever faith they ask for. So, they may ask for any faith chaplain to visit them, if they do ask for such.

So, is not in our hands to be able to preach the gospel to all on death row.

As it's their choice as to what they ask for. Hopefully those who ask for one who claims Chrisitianity, hopefully those chaplains or prison chaplains preach the gospel, which of course they may not though depending on if they themselves are believers.

 

[lighthousekid]

"I was speaking about the moral question of the death penalty by the state, of course, which is not required by God."

Okay, that's true. Now do you think that if a state does have the death penalty that they are going against the word of God or God's standard?

It depends, obviously if we have the right to self defense we have a collective right to self defense too. That's the moral background, but to go into more specifics would be to endure into a pollitical debate.

 

[tapero]

As Christians, if we know someone is on death row, we should request to see them.
If they will see us, we will then do what God has called us to do. I didn't say a
thing about what the law or the world should do. What would the world care?
They don't know the way of salvation. But we do.

I said THAT is my only concern, that they be afforded the opportunity to
hear the Gospel and receive or reject it.

How that comes about is OUR duty.
As Christians we insure that opportunity comes about,
by availing ourselves to God as vessels and He makes the way.
I am not speaking as a matter of secular policy.

Hope you now understand where I am coming from.

God bless.

Hi, I was just saying how it goes in prison. I imagine many do just as you say and offer to speak with the person, and of course be awesome if prisoner is allowed and desires such.

Famous case is where dobson was permitted to speak with one serial killer and that inmate came to Christ, and most of that was televised.

I didn't say anything about what the world should do. I said what is done in prisons now. How it is.

prisoner is offered chaplains, they either accept or reject or choose one.

So, I take it you'll be calling on death row inmates then?

 

[GenemZ]

Murder is a term deemed by man, and it is man that determines when a killing is murder and when it is not. God commands "Thou shalt not kill" and one who kills another is a killer no matter how you look at it. Sure there can be some justification but the person is still dead and the one who killed them is still a killer and to think of yourself as Gods executioner is just sick imo.

This is one prime example of why we need to be taught from the original languages if we are to understand the Word of God properly.


It does not say... "Thou shall not kill."

The Hebrew says... "Thou shall not murder"

Commit homicide!

If it said what you think it says? Then how could the Lord command Israel to kill the enemies in battle?



.

 

[GenemZ]

In Exodus 20:13 ESV the command given is:

Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.

So I don't believe the words murder and kill are interchangable. Plus, why would God sanction killing in some parts of the Bible if the commandment were not to kill? He'd be a hypocrite then, wouldn't He?

Good to see I am not alone on this one.

And, what I do not think is mentioned here. Jesus sanctioned capital punishment. Even for a believer...

Luke 23:40-43 (New International Version)
"But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."​

It was not as if Jesus could not speak. If the criminal who stated their punishment was just, was not correct? Jesus would have corrected him. Instead, Jesus commends him without censor.


.

 

[tapero]

scratch this post. edited.

Moses murdered and God made him the leader of the Hebrews, he was not put to death, so if God made a death penalty, he added it later i suppose, if that is how people will figure, and so they can discount that God in fact did not think that Moses was to be put to death, but rather made Moses a leader of his people.

David murdered and was not put to death. don't bring up the child, as we're talking about people getting the death penalty for murder.

Cain murdered and did not get the death penalty for murder.

 

[Zecryphon]

ESV? I guess if you look at enough versions you can find one with the wording you like. The word according to BDB means murder, slay, kill and it is translated as kill in most bibles.

As for God sanctioning the murder of people I do not think he did, I think some power hungry rulers convinced people that he did and it got recorded in our bibles. And yes I say murder because there are instances int he bible where God supposedly sanctioned mass murder of neighboring people.

As for the wording I find the Essene version the most interesting and probably the most accurate which states Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing for profit nor for pleasure nor shall you torment it. Yet if it is in self defense or defense of others is permitted.

"ESV? I guess if you look at enough versions you can find one with the wording you like. The word according to BDB means murder, slay, kill and it is translated as kill in most bibles."

BDB? Also, you make it sound like I went through alot of translations to find the one that translated the verse to my liking. I primarily use the ESV. I also use the NIV but I don't like it as much, it seems to be too much of a paraphrase.

"As for God sanctioning the murder of people I do not think he did,"

In post # 227 of this thread I asked the question this way:

Plus, why would God sanction killing in some parts of the Bible if the commandment were not to kill?

Why are you changing the wording of my question? That's a very dishonest thing to do. I did not say anything about God sanctioning murder. Please address what I actually do write in my posts.

"I think some power hungry rulers convinced people that he did and it got recorded in our bibles."

Power hungry rulers? Do you have some examples of the rulers in the Bible you consider to be power hungry?

And yes I say murder because there are instances int he bible where God supposedly sanctioned mass murder of neighboring people.

Such as? And would these neighboring people be people that were living lives of opposition to God and perhaps bowing down to idols of false gods?

"As for the wording I find the Essene version the most interesting and probably the most accurate which states Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing for profit nor for pleasure nor shall you torment it. Yet if it is in self defense or defense of others is permitted."

I agree with that. Here's an excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on murder that might be a help to all in this thread.

1. Terms​

The plural of φόνος, phónos, "murders," occurs in Mat_15:19; Mar_7:21; Gal_5:21 the King James Version; Rev_9:21; compare 2 Macc 4:3, 38; 12:6):

2. The Hebrew Law​

The Hebrew law recognized the distinction between willful murder and accidental or justifiable homicide Num_25:16; but in legal language no verbal distinction is made. Murder was always subject to capital punishment (Lev_24:17; compare Gen_9:6). Even if the criminal sought the protection of the sanctuary, he was to be arrested before the altar, and to be punished Exo_21:12, Exo_21:14; Lev_24:17, Lev_24:21; Num_35:16, Num_35:18, Num_35:21, Num_35:31. The Mishna says that a mortal blow intended for another than the victim is punishable with death; but such a provision is not found in the Law. No special mention is made of (a) child murder; (b) parricide; or (c) taking life by poison; but the intention of the law is clear with reference to all these eases Exo_21:15, Exo_21:17; 1Ti_1:9; Mat_15:4. No punishment is mentioned for attempted suicide (compare 1Sa_31:4; 1Ki_16:18; Mat_27:5); yet Josephus says (BJ, III, viii, 5) that suicide was held criminal by the Jews (see also Exo_21:23).

An animal known to be vicious must be confined, and if it caused the death of anyone, the animal was destroyed and the owner held guilty of murder Exo_21:29, Exo_21:31. The executioner, according to the terms of the Law, was the "revenger of blood"; but the guilt must be previously determined by the Levitical tribunal. Strong protection was given by the requirement that at least two witnesses must concur in any capital question Num_35:19-30; Deu_17:6-12; Deu_19:12, Deu_19:17. Under the monarchy the duty of executing justice on a murderer seems to have been assumed to some extent by the sovereign, who also had power to grant pardon 2Sa_13:39; 2Sa_14:7, 2Sa_14:11; 1Ki_2:34.

 

[GenemZ]

scratch this post. edited.

Moses murdered and God made him the leader of the Hebrews, he was not put to death, so if God made a death penalty, he added it later i suppose, if that is how people will figure, and so they can discount that God in fact did not think that Moses was to be put to death, but rather made Moses a leader of his people.

David murdered and was not put to death. don't bring up the child, as we're talking about people getting the death penalty for murder.

Cain murdered and did not get the death penalty for murder.

Satan murdered... from the beginning.

 

[Soul Searcher]

BDB? Also, you make it sound like I went through alot of translations to find the one that translated the verse to my liking. I primarily use the ESV. I also use the NIV but I don't like it as much, it seems to be too much of a paraphrase.

BDB is probably the most respected Herbrew to English source we have. I have it as an insert in e-sword.

The definition is
râtsach
BDB Definition:
1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
1d) (Pual) to be killed

Note it includes murder but is not limited to murder, it also includes killing, accidental or planned.

Strongs give the definition as;
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

Also note that it is not limited to murder, and again what is or is not murder is subject to the ideals of man as this is a man made term related to killing.

In post # 227 of this thread I asked the question this way:



Why are you changing the wording of my question? That's a very dishonest thing to do. I did not say anything about God sanctioning murder. Please address what I actually do write in my posts.

I did not change the wording of your question. I quoted you intact and accurately. I refer to the killings in the bible as murder because that is what they were. When a group of people go and kill thier neighbors, men women children animals.. that is murder and I don;t for one second ever believe that God had anything to do with it but power hungry rulers missrepresenting God and using these words to get thier people to take the lands, goods and even virgin girls for there own.

Power hungry rulers? Do you have some examples of the rulers in the Bible you consider to be power hungry?

Nothing specific off the top of my head but they are certianly there, It just depends on wether you look at it with a honest heart or if you presuppose that every word they said was true. God would not command thou shalt not kill then command the slaughter of every man woman and child in an area. The real tale tale sign is the sparing of young virgin girls to be raped and forced into marriage but the killing of the young virgin males. This definitly has the stench of man all over it.

Such as? And would these neighboring people be people that were living lives of opposition to God and perhaps bowing down to idols of false gods?

Seems like a convient excuse to me. No man has the right to judge another man and as Jesus clearly explained in his sermon on the mount men had the law wrong all along and they were killing people as a result in the name of God but God never condoned much less demanded such actions.

"As for the wording I find the Essene version the most interesting and probably the most accurate which states Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing for profit nor for pleasure nor shall you torment it. Yet if it is in self defense or defense of others is permitted."

I agree with that. Here's an excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on murder that might be a help to all in this thread.

 

[tapero]

Satan murdered... from the beginning.

point?