We are NOT "Orthodox in Communion with Rome."

[Light of the East]

**sigh**

Cut it any way you want, the claim of being "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" is .... well, I can't use such language on a Christian forum.

Shall I say "Bovine Excrement of a high quality?"

I continue to research, read, and study the issues at hand. My latest find is Fr. John Strickland's amazing and well-done history of the Christian faith called PARADISE AND UTOPIA, which is on Ancient Faith Radio. He traces the rise of the Carolingian Dynasty, Charlemagne, the Papal Reformation leading to Papal Supremacy, and up to Calvin and the Protestant Reformation. I am learning so much that was hidden from me for so long regarding the history of the Christian faith.

As I was doing my due diligence last night, I happened to get into a bit of a kerfuffle with some RC's over at Steve Ray's RC board about calling myself "Orthodox". They showed me that my "Orthodox" patriarch, His Holiness Sviatoslav Shevchuk, authorized a Ukrainian Catholic Catechism with distinct Latin theology in it, such as the promotion of Purgatory and the Infallibility of the Pope.

Orthodox????

I
DOAN
THEEENK
SO!!!!!

The same thing is in the catechetical positions of the Melkite Church to which my spiritual director belongs. My spiritual director who is teaching me that it is the Eucharist which makes the Body of Christ, and therefore, if one has a valid Eucharist, one is receiving the Body of Christ and is, by extension, part of that Body, even if in error.

He also continues to insist that Christian charity is the most important thing for me to develop, which I do not disagree with, but at the same time, it seems to relegate truth to the back of the bus.

I haven't read the Balamand Document yet, but I have seen some people quote it as saying that it takes a strong stance against Uniatism. I would have to agree with that because, as I am finding out, you simply cannot claim to be Orthodox if you are not Orthodox, especially in the things you put into Canon Law and the Catechism.

Close, but no ceeegar! It ain't Orthodoxy.

My head hurts!!!!

Y'all keep praying for me. I see hard and painful decisions in the future.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy!

 

[archer75]

May Christ God grant you the wisdom you need!

 

[Markie Boy]

I just lived this yesterday sort of. I may have finally broke, and I have no idea what to do with modern Catholicism. In order for it to be true and correct today, it must have been in error in the past - the two no longer correlate.

In a discussion with lay and priest, a non-denominational ecumenical prayer chapel was recommended and endorsed. Then a few sentences later it was stated how important it is to retain proper doctrine.

Huh????

When I asked about another hard topic it was stated that the Church doesn't teach that anymore. I think I give up.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I just lived this yesterday sort of. I may have finally broke, and I have no idea what to do with modern Catholicism. In order for it to be true and correct today, it must have been in error in the past - the two no longer correlate.

In a discussion with lay and priest, a non-denominational ecumenical prayer chapel was recommended and endorsed. Then a few sentences later it was stated how important it is to retain proper doctrine.

Huh????

When I asked about another hard topic it was stated that the Church doesn't teach that anymore. I think I give up.

Sooo, this one priest and one layperson endorse heresy and you're basically out the door?
Believe me I've heared way, waaaaay worse in the Orthodox church.
Needless to say though I cannot conclude that the east is as awful as a few very heretical priests.
If I am to reject Orthodoxy (which I definitely have) it must be on the basis of her official teaching not on the basis of some mislead individuals.

If EO is your thing then go for it, by all means but dont base it on one stupid priest and a layperson you've happened to come by.

 

[Markie Boy]

If it was only this one - but this is pretty much what I have bumped into more than not.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sooo, this one priest and one layperson endorse heresy and you're basically out the door?
Believe me I've heared way, waaaaay worse in the Orthodox church.
Needless to say though I cannot conclude that the east is as awful as a few very heretical priests.
If I am to reject Orthodoxy (which I definitely have) it must be on the basis of her official teaching not on the basis of some mislead individuals.

If EO is your thing then go for it, by all means but dont base it on one stupid priest and a layperson you've happened to come by.

no, his story goes back longer. this is one thing of many. but you are correct that you shouldn't reject a faith because people in it are bad.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

no, his story goes back longer. this is one thing of many. but you are correct that you shouldn't reject a faith because people in it are bad.

So we agree father
God bless you and forgive me for stirring the water in your haven lately.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So we agree father
God bless you and forgive me for stirring the water in your haven lately.

haha, miracles can happen.

and no worries, no harm, no foul. forgive me as well.

and waters being stirred from time to time is a good thing.

 

[archer75]

I agree with @Stabat Mater - definitely investigate other confessions and follow up on what seems wrong in the RCC. But don't quit on the grounds of a couple people who are off-base or confused.

That said, I DO approve of the generic "prayer rooms" I have seen in a couple hospitals. Chairs and quiet.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I agree with @Stabat Mater - definitely investigate other confessions and follow up on what seems wrong in the RCC. But don't quit on the grounds of a couple people who are off-base or confused.

That said, I DO approve of the generic "prayer rooms" I have seen in a couple hospitals. Chairs and quiet.

Like in airports and stuff ?

 

[archer75]

Like in airports and stuff ?

I haven't seen then in airports, but yeah, I assume it's the same kind of thing. I don't see what's "indifferentist" about a room for people to pray in quiet, regardless of their faith / confession / communion.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I just lived this yesterday sort of. I may have finally broke, and I have no idea what to do with modern Catholicism. In order for it to be true and correct today, it must have been in error in the past - the two no longer correlate.

In a discussion with lay and priest, a non-denominational ecumenical prayer chapel was recommended and endorsed. Then a few sentences later it was stated how important it is to retain proper doctrine.

Huh????

When I asked about another hard topic it was stated that the Church doesn't teach that anymore. I think I give up.

For me, this was a catalyst that made me seriously research the claims of Orthodoxy in comparison to Rome's claims.

While I'm still struggling in just accepting Orthodoxy to me as it's given to me, Roman Catholicism is something that's out of the picture - because by it's own premises which it has set up, the Roman Church has defected.

You either have to admit that the Popes from the 800s to 1958 were all against Christ with hardcore rigidness, selfishness, and power-hungriness in terms of discipline and doctrine, teaching policies which are sinful to those who follow it, and that the Church was finally restored in 1965, or that the Church has become indifferent and relativistic with the exception of abortion, contraception, and LGBT, and has taught teachings which are sinful from 1965 onward.

Either way, you have to account for the fact that the Holy Spirit has allowed the Roman Church to teach things harmful to one's soul, such that you have no reason to believe the Pope's authority can be legitimate.

It's as if there were two different Churches - one from the 800s to 1965, with the Saints of Robert Bellarmine, Thomas More, Josaphat Kuntseyvich, Ignatius Loyola, etc., and one from 1965 onwards, ignoring all of Christian history except for the Saints Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II as guides - but it's the same exact Church.

I firmly was convinced that the Vatican I claims of the Papacy are contradictory, which was preliminary why I believe in Orthodoxy, but the whole situation is like icing on the cake of why I can't go back. Even if I found a Papal Encyclical from the 700s claiming Papal Infallibility in the clearest, most explicit terms (I, the Pope, cannot defect on on morality and dogma), the current situation demonstrates the fact that Rome isn't the Church.

In Orthodoxy, people don't view Tradition with disdain or an illegitimate rigidness - they see it as one and the same as Love.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree with @Stabat Mater - definitely investigate other confessions and follow up on what seems wrong in the RCC. But don't quit on the grounds of a couple people who are off-base or confused.

That said, I DO approve of the generic "prayer rooms" I have seen in a couple hospitals. Chairs and quiet.

indeed. there is a difference between a spot with the intent of joint services (which is bad), and a quiet place where anyone can be still regardless of faith.

 

[TheLostCoin]

**sigh**

Orthodox????

I
DOAN
THEEENK
SO!!!!!

LOtE, do you mind if I take this quote and make it my signature? It's pretty funny to me for some reason.

 

[Light of the East]

LOtE, do you mind if I take this quote and make it my signature? It's pretty funny to me for some reason.

Doesn't belong to me. GO FOR IT!!!

 

[Markie Boy]

You know - I just want to follow Jesus. The RCC has so much extra "noise", it gets distracting at times.

And the RCC of today is in pretty heavy contrast with the Church of pre 1960. On paper the teaching hasn't changed so much, but in practice it sure has.

At what point does practice, not what's on the paper, become what you believe?

 

[dzheremi]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi (The law of prayer is the law of belief) used to be the watchword among the Latins many, many centuries ago. That has clearly not been kept until today.

In more general terms, this "Orthodox in Union with Rome" thing only ever seems to live on the internet, doesn't it? I only spent a small visit among the Ruthenian Catholics before ultimately deciding to ditch Catholicism altogether, but I don't remember any of them claiming that in real life. Neither did the Chaldeans, Maronites, and other Eastern Catholics I have known. And I have to think they didn't claim that because they know it's not true, and not only that, it's not even possible. It's like saying you're "Healthy in Union with AIDS." Okay then. See how long that lasts before the 'union' kills you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TheLostCoin]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi (The law of prayer is the law of belief) used to be the watchword among the Latins many, many centuries ago. That has clearly not been kept until today.

In more general terms, this "Orthodox in Union with Rome" thing only ever seems to live on the internet, doesn't it? I only spent a small visit among the Ruthenian Catholics before ultimately deciding to ditch Catholicism altogether, but I don't remember any of them claiming that in real life. Neither did the Chaldeans, Maronites, and other Eastern Catholics I have known. And I have to think they didn't claim that because they know it's not true, and not only that, it's not even possible. It's like saying you're "Healthy in Union with AIDS." Okay then. See how long that lasts before the 'union' kills you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wonder if the hostilities between the Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics, not only in light of historical hostility but especially due to the conflict in Ukraine today, have led to fears of social isolation and rejection by the family for those who really reject Roman dogma but believe in Orthodox dogma. I wonder if this is why it's so hard to call a spade and spade and reject Rome altogether for people struggling in such a way.