We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Alithis]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

Siiiigh.
This is the opposite extreme of the grace only crowd.who imlpy one can have grace and not do anything.
The sentiments are right,but it lacks the balance of walking in the spirit in obedience,as opposed to doing things out of self effort.
One crowd is all about grace the other all about works.

Obey the Holy Spirit!
Then by the grace of God we will find ourselves doing His work....
Not our own.

 

[Jeo7]

Siiiigh.
This is the opposite extreme of the grace only crowd.who imlpy one can have grace and not do anything.
The sentiments are right,but it lacks the balance of walking in the spirit in obedience,as opposed to doing things out of self effort.
One crowd is all about grace the other all about works.

Obey the Holy Spirit!
Then by the grace of God we will find ourselves doing His work....
Not our own.

We need faith, we need the grace of God in order for our works of salvation to prevail. We must stay strong to the end. Defeat the works of the flesh by having the WORKS of the Spirit within us.

 

[Alithis]

We need faith, we need the grace of God in order for our works of salvation to prevail. We must stay strong to the end. Defeat the works of the flesh by having the WORKS of the Spirit within us.

Error one-
They are not our works.
Obedience is doing what we are instructed.
We ares saved by grace through faith,unto good works..
J bunyan pointed out in a pilgrims progress that the candles flame,once lit,is maintained by the spending of both wick and wax.
To maintain the flame both life and will are spent.
Salvation is not gained by works.
But reward is.
But works must be done as an act of obedience motivated by love for God.and obedience is not doing what you think is right,but what the lord tells you personally to do.

 

[tremble]

Again, what was the first thing Jesus taught? "REPENT !! For the Kingdom of God is near." To acknowledge we have fallen short from glory is the first thing we must do for our salvation.

Hey Jeo. I'm not sure how that relates to my post about the thief on the cross, but yeah I agree that Jesus told us to repent and repenting often requires action; works.

It's not our efforts which earn our salvation, and yet without our efforts to at least try to repent, God is almost certainly unlikely to offer.

Grace is there for people who try and fail. It defeats the purpose of grace for it to be offered to people who do not try.

 

[pescador]

Regarding the "thief" on the cross...

He probably wasn't a thief since the crime of theft wouldn't result in a crucifixion. He was most probably a political rebel who was being crucified for the same reason Jesus was: stirring up insurrection against Rome.

If you read the section in Luke, the first criminal demanded that Jesus "save" them all from the torture they were undergoing -- if he was the Christ. The second criminal spoke about fearing God and said that Jesus had done nothing wrong. He recognized Jesus innocence and that he would be going to "his kingdom" -- understanding that he was a king! He believed Jesus for who he really was and confessed with his mouth that he was divine. "...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation." (Roman 9:9-10)

There was nothing that the rebel did in his life that kept him from Christ's kingdom. He probably believed that he was doing good by trying to rebel against Rome as many others did at the time and he recognized true power and victory in the person of Jesus. The first rebel focused on himself and asked to be "saved"; the second rebel focused on God and Jesus and was saved.

 

[Jeo7]

Error one-
They are not our works.
Obedience is doing what we are instructed.
We ares saved by grace through faith,unto good works..
J bunyan pointed out in a pilgrims progress that the candles flame,once lit,is maintained by the spending of both wick and wax.
To maintain the flame both life and will are spent.
Salvation is not gained by works.
But reward is.
But works must be done as an act of obedience motivated by love for God.and obedience is not doing what you think is right,but what the lord tells you personally to do.

Again. When we are talking about works, what kind of works are you referring to?? Like exterior works? For example, helping donate money, or helping a neighbor move... Or works we do in ourselves to become better Christians? For example, building virtues and morality, or seducing our passions to become better human beings ext .......theres a huge difference.
Yes we need faith and grace in order for the Works of God be done in us. Jesus carried his cross,.but we must carry our own. DAILY, we must work on our salvation with fear and trembling !

 

[pescador]

The NET Bible translator's note regarding Philippians 2:12 (usually "work out your salvation with fear and trembling") says...

Grk “with fear and trembling.” The Greek words φόβος and τρόμος both imply fear in a negative sense while the former can also refer to respect and awe for deity . Paul’s use of the terms in other contexts refers to “awe and reverence in the presence of God” The translation “awe and reverence” [in the NET Bible] was chosen to portray the attitude the believer should have toward God as they consider their behavior in light of God working through Jesus Christ (2:6-11) and in the believer’s life (2:13) to accomplish their salvation."

I know that doesn't sit well with those who are into fearing God (as the Israelites of the Old Testament did), shaking in their boots for fear of punishment, but that is not how Christians should regard their loving father Abba. Paul begins that section of his letter "Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort provided by love, any fellowship in the Spirit, any affection or mercy, complete my joy and be of the same mind, by having the same love, being united in spirit, and having one purpose."

In the same sentence as "awe and reverence" Paul wrote "...for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort – for the sake of his good pleasure – is God." We don't work out our salvation with fear and trembling by our own efforts. We live with awe and reverence for God because that is what he brings out in us.

 

[tremble]

! He believed Jesus for who he really was and confessed with his mouth th[BIBLE][/BIBLE]at he was divine. "...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation." (Roman 9:9-10)

.

Confess. That's something we choose to do, a physical action; a work.

The thief did not earn his salvation and yet without that work salvation would have been denied.

 

[Omena]

I think Tremble has hit a very significant point in this discussion, which is that ALL of us, whether we choose to admit or not, believe that we must do some type of work in order to be saved. How many of you have said the sinner's prayer? That's a work. How many of you believe that we must be baptized? That's a work. How many of you have stopped drinking, smoking, or swearing? The list goes on, so it's wrong to say we believe we can't be saved by any work.

Some people here are arguing that our works should not really be based on what we read in the Bible, but rather what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do. That's fair enough to a certain extent, but taken too far it ignores precisely what Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to do: to REMIND us of his TEACHINGS (i.e. the teachings we read in the Gospels found in the Bible). So, yes, let's follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit, but overall those promptings should be leading us to do the things that we read in the Gospels.

That's where I was hoping this discussion would lead us: what are the teachings of Jesus? What does the Holy Spirit tell us to do? How do we live by those teachings and commands? I'm sure a great deal of you will argue that it's none of my business what the Holy Spirit asks of you, and for the most part I would agree. But the one thing ALL of us should have in common (if we're truly Christians), is that we should be hearing a lot of the same things from the Holy Spirit, and those things should be the same as what Jesus told us to do. I would like to discuss those teachings, and how to apply them in our lives.

 

[samjazz]

Read Mark 4, Matthew 13....Read what Paul said about the "Mysteries Of God discussed only to the mature" in Corinthians 2
Yes, they're secrets only a few Christians know. Remember Jesus was a Jew. We Jews had and continue to have a VERBAL tradition, and Jesus taught the same. This VERBAL tradition is passed down from master to student, and they're many things Jesus taught which you cannot find in the New Testament. It is however, in the OT.
Why do you think Jesus always said, "Anyone with ears let them listen, those with the eyes to see let them see."
The Mysteries of God is not for everyone. Pearls aren't for pigs,
But again, this is a whole different topic for this thread.

I believe the Holy Bible is complete and needs no other support. Special, spiritual knowledge coming to a person which differs from the text of the Holy Bible is heresy and absolutely will not be taken as truth by me. What does having Jewish DNA have to do with anything? That sounds racist to me. I am a Jew by adoption and have all the privileges and responsibilities of any born Jew who has accepted Christ as Savior.

Further, the New Testament explains sufficiently, the "mysteries." Mystical or extra-biblical knowledge is also known as gnostic mysticism and has been heresy being fought since the very beginning of Christianity. Any revelation attributed to God must be consistent with the scriptures or it is a lie from the very pit of hell. God does not change and His message does not change.

 

[Neogaia777]

If you Faith (Believing) does not change your heart so as to willingly want to do good works, not because your trying to earn anything, but just because it pleases you to do so in your new relationship with Christ, and in that way you realize you are being like Christ and are truly following Christ...

If your faith (belief) does not produce a change of heart within you to want to do good works, then I would question your conversion, being born-again, or faith belief in Jesus Christ as to being real or not.

 

[Jeo7]

I believe the Holy Bible is complete and needs no other support. Special, spiritual knowledge coming to a person which differs from the text of the Holy Bible is heresy and absolutely will not be taken as truth by me. What does having Jewish DNA have to do with anything? That sounds racist to me. I am a Jew by adoption and have all the privileges and responsibilities of any born Jew who has accepted Christ as Savior.

Further, the New Testament explains sufficiently, the "mysteries." Mystical or extra-biblical knowledge is also known as gnostic mysticism and has been heresy being fought since the very beginning of Christianity. Any revelation attributed to God must be consistent with the scriptures or it is a lie from the very pit of hell. God does not change and His message does not change.

Where did you get racist from brother?? Look, without knowing Jewish traditions, one cannot understand the scriptures as we should (OT) Hebrew. There's a verbal doctrine we Jewish people traditionally have, and it is the same way Jesus taught It's most deepest and spiritual teachings.
The Bible is complete ! But not everyone has the eyes to see.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Also, I'm not suggesting I'm perfect, all I want to know is why nobody wants to discuss the teachings of Jesus. People still have not yet answered that question? What is about the teachings of Jesus that get people so upset?

Because Jesus IS the truth. Because the Christian ideal is so hard that it is rarely even tried. Because it is filled with paradox, and people have become binary in their thinking in modern society. Because real Christianity is a life of sacrifice of ones self to the good of other. It is placing others first. It is a living out of 1 Cor. 13. It is love. Not eros, but caritas/agape. Because it's easier to just pick out a couple verses that say faith may be enough. It is the path of least resistance, and doesn't seem to involve lugging around a 100 pounds of wood on our backs all day long, every day.

Your observation on this is keen. Thank you, and God bless.

 

[stevenfrancis]

I'm not talking about a pastor. I'm talking about physically belonging to a community of believers. Quite often, the lone Christian who has forsaken regular fellowship starts to believe that he has received some special revelation that all the others are wrong. They talk a lot about "following Christ" but Christ gave us the church for a reason. When we are apart from the body for too long, we start to convince ourselves of things that aren't true--but they sure sound true to us.

Once you have set yourself apart, you start believing that you alone are sanctified or that you know secrets that they don't know because they are fooled by their church, their pastor, or even by the rest of the body.

Very good point. We are one body. The mystical body of Christ. We gather together, as He taught us, to worship, to praise, to thank, and receive His sanctifying grace. To HEAR the written word spoken, and then applied to our lives in homily. God doesn't need us to be in Church. But WE need to be there to maintain the body of Christ. To be of one mind. One heart. and share in the divine liturgy. Alone, we are simply the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts before the Apostle came to him.

 

[Jeo7]

Very good point. We are one body. The mystical body of Christ. We gather together, as He taught us, to worship, to praise, to thank, and receive His sanctifying grace. To HEAR the written word spoken, and then applied to our lives in homily. God doesn't need us to be in Church. But WE need to be there to maintain the body of Christ. To be of one mind. One heart. and share in the divine liturgy. Alone, we are simply the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts before the Apostle came to him.

I love that stevenfrancis

 

[pescador]

Because Jesus IS the truth. Because the Christian ideal is so hard that it is rarely even tried. Because it is filled with paradox, and people have become binary in their thinking in modern society. Because real Christianity is a life of sacrifice of ones self to the good of other. It is placing others first. It is a living out of 1 Cor. 13. It is love. Not eros, but caritas/agape. Because it's easier to just pick out a couple verses that say faith may be enough. It is the path of least resistance, and doesn't seem to involve lugging around a 100 pounds of wood on our backs all day long, every day.

Your observation on this is keen. Thank you, and God bless.

There is a certain striving in your post that makes me uncomfortable.

Have you read Hebrews 4:9-10: "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."? As Christians we are living in Christ who did everything that was necessary for our justification and redemption. When you say "...the Christian ideal is so hard that it is rarely even tried" and "... real Christianity is a life of sacrifice of ones self to the good of other" it makes me wonder if you are missing the joy of redemption and life in the kingdom.

In Matthew's gospel, chapter 11, Jesus said "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry."

Why are you trying to burden people with struggle when Jesus gives them rest?

 

[Jeo7]

Because Jesus IS the truth. Because the Christian ideal is so hard that it is rarely even tried. Because it is filled with paradox, and people have become binary in their thinking in modern society. Because real Christianity is a life of sacrifice of ones self to the good of other. It is placing others first. It is a living out of 1 Cor. 13. It is love. Not eros, but caritas/agape. Because it's easier to just pick out a couple verses that say faith may be enough. It is the path of least resistance, and doesn't seem to involve lugging around a 100 pounds of wood on our backs all day long, every day.

Your observation on this is keen. Thank you, and God bless.

Jesus is the Way, he is the Truth and he is the Life, the question is, where is this Way, Truth and Life in us Christians??
No, don't respond saying simply by believing we have this Truth in us. You have to be careful and really read what Jesus is talking about from John 14 to John 18.
Jesus The Christ is literally asking us to find this Christ within ourselves. The Christ is ONE, Jesus The Christ is asking us to be UNIFIED in him, to have the same Christhood as he did. The Way the Truth and the Life within us.

 

[samjazz]

Where did you get racist from brother?? Look, without knowing Jewish traditions, one cannot understand the scriptures as we should (OT) Hebrew. There's a verbal doctrine we Jewish people traditionally have, and it is the same way Jesus taught It's most deepest and spiritual teachings.
The Bible is complete ! But not everyone has the eyes to see.

I sincerely apologize if racist is too strong, but when you say "we Jewish people" (and implicitly, you gentiles) it sounds and feels like racism. And whether this is true or not, it feels like you are attempting to make yourself seem more special because of it.

The oral traditions add a wonderful layer of richness to the "Old Testament," and for having that in your life I am envious However, I don't agree that the scriptures need the oral traditions to be understood. If that were the case than the scriptures would have commanded us to study them.

Not everyone agrees with the concept of Sola Scriptura (please refer to the wiki site), but I do. Without a constant (the Word of God) everything breaks down into individual opinions which cannot be verified. The Jewish oral traditions have contradictions, inaccuracies, and other problems. So while I love to hear the oral traditions for my own edification and interest, they have very little bearing on the orthodoxy of my faith or as a litmus test for Biblical truth.

When I need "eyes to see" the truths in the scriptures, God Himself, through His Holy Spirit, gives me those "eyes."

Since I believe that as a Christian I am adopted into the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, I am a de facto Jew. If you could see at my arm in spirit, you will see an armband with a yellow star of David and the word, "Jude" written inside of it.

When I stop to think of what Jesus had to pay to make it possible for me to be adopted, I can't help but feel both humbled and elated. In an earlier post, I called you brother, and you also called me brother. That can only be possible if we are in the same family.

 

[Jeo7]

I sincerely apologize if racist is too strong, but when you say "we Jewish people" (and implicitly, you gentiles) it sounds and feels like racism. And whether this is true or not, it feels like you are attempting to make yourself seem more special because of it.

The oral traditions add a wonderful layer of richness to the "Old Testament," and for having that in your life I am envious However, I don't agree that the scriptures need the oral traditions to be understood. If that were the case than the scriptures would have commanded us to study them.

Not everyone agrees with the concept of Sola Scriptura (please refer to the wiki site), but I do. Without a constant (the Word of God) everything breaks down into individual opinions which cannot be verified. The Jewish oral traditions have contradictions, inaccuracies, and other problems. So while I love to hear the oral traditions for my own edification and interest, they have very little bearing on the orthodoxy of my faith or as a litmus test for Biblical truth.

When I need "eyes to see" the truths in the scriptures, God Himself, through His Holy Spirit, gives me those "eyes."

Since I believe that as a Christian I am adopted into the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, I am a de facto Jew. If you could see at my arm in spirit, you will see an armband with a yellow star of David and the word, "Jude" written inside of it.

When I stop to think of what Jesus had to pay to make it possible for me to be adopted, I can't help but feel both humbled and elated. In an earlier post, I called you brother, and you also called me brother. That can only be possible if we are in the same family.

<3

 

[Alithis]

Again. When we are talking about works, what kind of works are you referring to?? Like exterior works? For example, helping donate money, or helping a neighbor move... Or works we do in ourselves to become better Christians? For example, building virtues and morality, or seducing our passions to become better human beings ext .......theres a huge difference.
Yes we need faith and grace in order for the Works of God be done in us. Jesus carried his cross,.but we must carry our own. DAILY, we must work on our salvation with fear and ptrembling !

Your mistaken to think you can improve your spiritual state by the doing of outer things according to carnal reasoning.
Doing many outer works because you think it is a good idea is following yourself...unless of course the Holy spirit told you to do them.but then ,in obedience you are doing his work,not your own.
Doing outer works motivated by duty or more often an effort to make up for shortfall will make you a busier christian ,but no spiritually better off.

Saul is the most obvious example of this.told by God thru samuel what to do,he did not do it.then he went and did whole bunch of other good things.even building (works)an alter to the lord and sacrificing (sacrificial works)upon it.but the
Lord was only displeased,saying thru samuel..
"It is better to obey then to sacrifice" ..

The lord Jesus spoke of this also and in the strongest words.
They will say to me lord lord we did this and that in your name(note- all good works)and why does he then say to them..."depart from me you workers of iniquity...i do not know you"...?
--He says this because they had no intimacy of spirit with him ,they did not listen to his spirit speaking to them,they avoided asking for the comforter reasoning him away with carnal argument.they did not obey the holy spirits instruction.then,to make up for it,they run around doing many good works but such sacrifice does not make up for the sin of disobedience..yet they work their good works while disobeying the one thing god is asking of them personally..so their good sacrificial works become iniquity.

To do the work of the lord begins by being saved by grace through faith..to be conitually transformed into the image of christ..is done by the power of the holy spirit as we learn to be obedient to him.
So none can boast and say i did it.and all the glory is given unto him to whom it belongs.our Lord and redeemer JESUS the annointed of God.