We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Deano715]

Jesus did not start his ministry yet. He was a little boy being a trouble maker lol and yes !! If it was the works of our flesh, we could never be saved. It's about working out our salvation with the help of God, and Jesus as our EXAMPLE.

A little boy being a trouble maker? And here I always thought he was the Son of God talking with temple priests. Sorry dude but any credibility you had, with me, just went out the window.

 

[Jeo7]

A little boy being a trouble maker? And here I always thought he was the Son of God talking with temple priests. Sorry dude but any credibility you had, with me, just went out the window.

What he was a man, Son of Man, as much as he was Son of God. Why is that hard for you to accept? He was a little boy when he sneaked out of his mothers sight. Mary and Joseph were worried !! Lol to later find him preaching in the Temple

 

[Omena]

Have anybody noticed that everyone on this thread has been saying that salvation cannot be earned through works? We've established that point, and we all agree on it, I think.

It seems like we also all agreed on the point that if we do have faith and have accepted salvation, that we will do works and follow the teachings of Jesus. Is that right, does everyone agree?

If we're agreed on those two points, why do we get into big fighting matches whenever somebody raises the teachings of Jesus? We all agree we should be following His teachings, right? Not for the purpose of entering heaven, but because we are all Christians, and that's what Christians do.

 

[Jeo7]

Have anybody noticed that everyone on this thread has been saying that salvation cannot be earned through works? We've established that point, and we all agree on it, I think.

It seems like we also all agreed on the point that if we do have faith and have accepted salvation, that we will do works and follow the teachings of Jesus. Is that right, does everyone agree?

If we're agreed on those two points, why do we get into big fighting matches whenever somebody raises the teachings of Jesus? We all agree we should be following His teachings, right? Not for the purpose of entering heaven, but because we are all Christians, and that's what Christians do.

Believe me. If we Christians really did follow the teachings of Christ, the world would not be like it is today. They are approximately 3 billion Christians in the world, we should be the Light of the world..we are doing something wrong.

 

[Omena]

Believe me. If we Christians really did follow the teachings of Christ, the world would not be like it is today. They are approximately 3 billion Christians in the world, we should be the Light of the world..we are doing something wrong.

I agree, Jeo. Where are the Christians who "turned the world upside down"? Christianity today is basically just people getting together on Sundays (or Saturdays) for an hour or two, and then the most radical ones hand out tracts with the sinner's prayer on it, with the ultimate goal of getting more people to attend their church.

 

[Jeo7]

I agree, Jeo. Where are the Christians who "turned the world upside down"? Christianity today is basically just people getting together on Sundays (or Saturdays) for an hour or two, and then the most radical ones hand out tracts with the sinner's prayer on it, with the ultimate goal of getting more people to attend their church.

You got it. Jesus warned us about this time and age.

 

[BryanW92]

Believe me. If we Christians really did follow the teachings of Christ, the world would not be like it is today. They are approximately 3 billion Christians in the world, we should be the Light of the world..we are doing something wrong.

Everybody loves to wring their hands and claim that the Christians aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing. We should be the light of the world, etc, etc.

Well, imagine a world without the Christians doing what they do right now. Imagine that void filled in with Islam, or perhaps not filled in with Islam but filled in with Roman paganism, Celtic paganism, Nordic paganism, African paganism, and the pre-Mohammed Arabic paganism. Christianity displaced each of those pagan religions. Without those lazy Christians who aren't doing enough to satisfy you, the world would be pagan and a very dark place indeed.

We could do more. I get that. But, be objective and look at the light that Christianity brings to the world already. It's easy to get spoiled and think that this level of light is natural. Believe me, it's not!

 

[BryanW92]

I agree, Jeo. Where are the Christians who "turned the world upside down"? Christianity today is basically just people getting together on Sundays (or Saturdays) for an hour or two, and then the most radical ones hand out tracts with the sinner's prayer on it, with the ultimate goal of getting more people to attend their church.

I'm saddened that this has been your experience in church. Most churches do a lot more than what you describe. Don't complain about what "those other Christians" aren't doing. Be the Christian who DOES and shows them how. Be the old woman with her two coins. Open your eyes and see that churches are full of people like her. Don't fault them for not doing enough to satisfy you. Rejoice that they are doing something.

 

[pescador]

Everybody loves to wring their hands and claim that the Christians aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing. We should be the light of the world, etc, etc.

Well, imagine a world without the Christians doing what they do right now. Imagine that void filled in with Islam, or perhaps not filled in with Islam but filled in with Roman paganism, Celtic paganism, Nordic paganism, African paganism, and the pre-Mohammed Arabic paganism. Christianity displaced each of those pagan religions. Without those lazy Christians who aren't doing enough to satisfy you, the world would be pagan and a very dark place indeed.

We could do more. I get that. But, be objective and look at the light that Christianity brings to the world already. It's easy to get spoiled and think that this level of light is natural. Believe me, it's not!

Very, very well said!! Thank you for stating this so clearly.

 

[pescador]

I agree, Jeo. Where are the Christians who "turned the world upside down"? Christianity today is basically just people getting together on Sundays (or Saturdays) for an hour or two, and then the most radical ones hand out tracts with the sinner's prayer on it, with the ultimate goal of getting more people to attend their church.

This is an extremely narrow view of Christianity, filled with the same self-righteousness that the Pharisee had when he thanked God he wasn't like the tax collector next to him. It might be a good idea for you to travel outside of the US suburbs and look at Christianity worldwide. If you did you would see millions of Christians living a very active faith, often under difficult and/or dangerous conditions.

 

[Omena]

I have traveled, a lot (not from the U.S. by the way), and I haven't seen what you're describing. I've encountered countless people who continue to fight against the teachings of Jesus, while at the same time proclaiming to be "saved".

Also, I'm not suggesting I'm perfect, all I want to know is why nobody wants to discuss the teachings of Jesus. People still have not yet answered that question? What is about the teachings of Jesus that get people so upset?

 

[pescador]

God tells us to turn from sin (repent) and to live a new life in Christ. Unfortunately people love their sins! They don't want to give them up. They don't understand grace, but instead believe that they will be under the law: don't do this, don't do that. Religion has told them that is what God requires and they are instinctively right to run from it. Until people are told about God's love and grace and that having a relationship with him is the greatest thing imaginable they will stick with what gives them (false) pleasure.

 

[Omena]

Have you been reading other posts in this thread, pescador? All of us have agreed that we need God's grace, first and foremost. However, we've also talked about the fact that once we become a new person in Christ, we will start living as Christ taught us to. That's where we're at with it now. Do you have any thoughts on how we should be practicing the teachings of Jesus in our lives (not because we are trying to "work our way to heaven", but because we are new creatures in Christ)?

 

[pescador]

Have you been reading other posts in this thread, pescador? All of us have agreed that we need God's grace, first and foremost. However, we've also talked about the fact that once we become a new person in Christ, we will start living as Christ taught us to. That's where we're at with it now. Do you have any thoughts on how we should be practicing the teachings of Jesus in our lives (not because we are trying to "work our way to heaven", but because we are new creatures in Christ)?

I have seen a variety of posts in this thread with differing points of view but if, as you say, everyone agrees that "we need God's grace" and "we will start living as Christ taught us to" then we'll go on from there. If we have received the Holy Spirit then we have "the teachings of Christ" within us, although I have a problem with that phrase. Jesus taught many things -- to unbelievers and to his disciples, but all of that was before the cross. Jesus said that the Father "will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you." So we are not to follow the teachings of Jesus by using our heads, reading and doing what he said in the gospels, but by following the guidance of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. God has a plan for each of our lives to bring about what he wills through us. We have a choice constantly: live according to "the flesh", according to our own wisdom and desires, or live according to the Spirit, motivated by what God brings alive in us. Whatever God wants us to do, which may be almost nothing or it may be a lot, he will bring about in us. We should constantly pray and read God's word to verify that what is motivating us is from the Spirit and not from our own desires.

Personally I rarely ask God for anything because He is in control and doesn't exist to fulfill my desires. I realize that isn't how many Christians live but God gives to each of us what he wills. I don't have much trouble determining what is God's plan for me and what is my own desire because I have learned to be sensitive to the Spirit working within me. If I have doubts (and even if I don't) I confirm many things with my pastor, another elder in the church, members of the congregation, my wonderful Christian wife, and my children and also members of this forum.

Paul told the Corinthians "God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Water Cross]

Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. Believe in him, period. All else is damnation. The Bible says that too. And it warns of false prophets who will come in Jesus name. Even in the 21st century we are to take heed of that.

 

[BryanW92]

What is about the teachings of Jesus that get people so upset?

Read the bible. Jesus tells us why his teachings will get people upset. The Natural Man revels in sin and wants to be his own god. He wants to self-determine what is right and wrong. Jesus is proof that there is a God and that God doesn't care about our history or our works. God only wants faith from us and that's the hardest thing we can give. You can make us work from sunup to sundown. You can make us give up things. You can make us suffer. We understand these things because we demand it of each other.

But, offer us grace as a gift with no strings attached and we go crazy! That's not how things work on this earth! Somehow, God is breaking OUR rules.

But some people "get it". We understand faith. That's why these attempts to create a human-like god who demands earthly works as payment for grace gets us so worked up.

 

[tremble]

Have you been reading other posts in this thread, pescador? All of us have agreed that we need God's grace, first and foremost. However, we've also talked about the fact that once we become a new person in Christ, we will start living as Christ taught us to. That's where we're at with it now. Do you have any thoughts on how we should be practicing the teachings of Jesus in our lives (not because we are trying to "work our way to heaven", but because we are new creatures in Christ)?

I'm interested in Omena's theory that some people use the "salvation vs works" argument to distract from legitimate obedience to Jesus. It would certainly be interesting if that could be proved.

Omena, can you post one or two examples to support your theory?

 

[tremble]

BTW, regarding the salvation by works argument, people often quote Ephesians 2:8, but there is more to what Paul said. Here's a couple more verses added to show context:

EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

EPH 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

EPH 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I get the feeling verse 8 has become so well known in the church world that most people now quote it without even considering verse 9 and 10 for context (maybe without even knowing those two verses exist).

Sure, if someone is bragging about how they deserve a place in Heaven because of their own goodness then definitely quote these verses to them.

It hardly seems relevant, though, for a genuine discussion about obedience to Jesus (which Jesus made quite clear that he expects from his followers).

But then, how do we decide when a discussion about legitimate obedience to Jesus turns in to people bragging about their goodness?

Any ideas?

 

[Norah63]

Right believing leads to right living. If someone doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as their savior, they won't believe anything else He has to say. Following along the path of light is our calling. As the old song goes, learning to lean on Jesus. He will teach us to walk in His ways and hear His voice. Our love for Him will make us want to obey. His yoke is easy, His burden is light.
And I understand Omena and tremble, because we do not see the works that Jesus said we should be doing. He healed all who came to him, delivered from evil, opened blind eyes, fed the five thousand with a few loaves and fishes. It is the power gifts the church lacks. And yes it is very noticeable. Apostles had even their shadows that could heal and deliver. In the last days we are warned would there be any faith left. The world notices these things, how can we answer if we do not at least ask each other the hard things.

 

[Jeo7]

I have traveled, a lot (not from the U.S. by the way), and I haven't seen what you're describing. I've encountered countless people who continue to fight against the teachings of Jesus, while at the same time proclaiming to be "saved".

Also, I'm not suggesting I'm perfect, all I want to know is why nobody wants to discuss the teachings of Jesus. People still have not yet answered that question? What is about the teachings of Jesus that get people so upset?

Because Christians today are not led by the spirit of Christ. Again, as Jesus warned us about. He said MANY will be deceived.