We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[BryanW92]

Although I can usually follow the content of most forum posts I have no idea what this is about. One thing I do know: it ain't scriptural.

He's talking about those videos you see where the soldier returns home and his child (not always an infant--sometimes it is even a teenager) just drops what they're doing, they start crying, and they run to their father. They don't care who sees them or who is around or how "uncool" they are. All they see is their father and there's nothing that can get in their way.

That's how we should approach God. And yes, that is quite scriptural.

 

[Alithis]

This all sounds very spiritual, but I can't see that it addresses what Jesus said. Here it is again;



The command is given in such a way that it implies people who pray for others to hear are hypocrites. It's almost certain the people back in Jesus' day also had good explanations for why they were not being hypocritical with their praying. Some of them were probably quite offended.

And yet, despite all the likely good explanations and arguments to carry on praying as they'd always done, Jesus still commanded that his followers should speak their prayers secretly for only God to hear.

However, even if we really DO have the discipline to choose the words of our prayer without a single care for what anyone may think of them, can we be sure the others with us are doing the same? If one person in the group allows not only their words, but they way they speak their words to be changed by what others may think of them then they are no longer praying only to God, and everyone participating in the prayer session is a part of that. Perhaps that is why Jesus made the rule for all of us.

If we want others to pray with us, discuss what to pray for ahead of time and then pray for it together silently. Agreement can be more than a spoken "amen". Considering this and what Jesus said, there is considerable reason to question the "heart motives" of why any of us would continue to push for others to hear us in the act of praying.

When gathered specifically to pray...in a meeting..its not public its not for show.the thinking on it is a little egocentric.
It is also vastly limiting what prayer is.sometimes people break out in expressions of thanksgiving and praise .it is an expected part of gatherings.your still missing the unity of the spirit.brushing it off as sounding very spiritual causes me to wonder .i cannot assume everyone experiences this yet.
If the holy spirit says to us.."pray this out",we must obey him.for we live after the law of the spirit of life.which is to obey the holy spirit.
Leave the judgments of the motive of a persons heart up to God who alone knows.
One must be cautious of imposing life bringing principles as laws which hinder the work of the holy spirit. If we impose a law saying "never pray out loud" how is that person free to obey the holy spirit ?the lord Jesus never said dont pray out loud ,he is clearly saying dont pray with pretence (hypocrisy) in order to show off.its not wise to take that ,add to it and impose it as law.

I assure you ,one can appear most pious and holy looking ,only ever standing silent,and going to their closet to pray because they are so much better then "those outloud praying types"..and it is all for the same hypocritical display.
God does not look at the outer appearance,he looks at the heart.
He desires truth in the inmost part.

 

[BryanW92]

I assure you ,one can appear most pious and holy looking ,only ever standing silent,and going to their closet to pray because they are so much better then "those outloud praying types"..and it is all for the same hypocritical display.

 

[Omena]

Perhaps we can move this discussion about prayer over to the other thread that Norah has started? I'm hoping we can all discuss this topic by really LISTENING to each other (and I say that to myself as well), instead of assuming that we are correct by default, and that others are wrong.

 

[tremble]

The OP mentioned Jesus' comments about people who claim to follow him, but do not obey his teachings (i.e. "Lord, Lord" people). There was some concern about "legalism" so we discussed the difference between legalism and genuine obedience to Jesus.

However, even then there was some concern about being too vague about these teachings of Jesus. To make it absolutely clear that the topic remained on genuine obedience to Jesus, as opposed to legalism, some of us wanted specific examples of obedience to Jesus. RBperry and I covered this extensively a few pages back.

In that context, I brought up public prayer. It could have been any number of Jesus' commands for how his followers are meant to behave. I'm definitely open to other examples, besides prayer, to highlight the OP's concerns further.

 

[Bramwell]

Hi Tremble,

I was reading through the Gospels recently, and came across a passage I don't think I covered in my church attending days. Here is the passage:

Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

(Luke 12:33-34)

I've heard pastors preach long sermons from the book of Proverbs, detailing God's promises of wealth to Israel. I've even heard the passage from Jesus, where He talks about us receiving based on the way we give. (This is the verse about what we received being pressed down, shaken together, and running over.) This passage is often used to encourage church members to tithe and make other financial offerings to the church.

But I've not heard a preacher teach that our heart is with our money. I've never heard a preacher actually direct us to sell what we have for the purpose of charity. I have heard preachers encourage their flock to donate from their extras and leftovers to charitable causes, e.g. mission funds for Africa or Asia, etc. But I've never heard a preacher say for his flock to sell their own possessions in order to contribute. It's always been more of a push to donate out of their abundance. (Luke 21:1-4)

I ask myself why this is. Why do Christian preachers and teachers avoid this teaching from Jesus like the plague?

The conclusion I've arrived at, is that it's because it's not what people want to hear. People want to hear about ways in which they can acquire more wealth - not give it away.

At least that's the conclusion I've come to. Any other thoughts?

 

[sedg]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

OK, I'll tear Romans 10 out of my bible along with many other chapters. Please read the bible as a whole and not pick out verses to form your own doctrine.

 

[tremble]

hi Bramwell,

I ask myself why this is. Why do Christian preachers and teachers avoid this teaching from Jesus like the plague?

Interesting example. I also am familiar with this teaching and, like you, I also don't remember hearing about it in my church experiences.

I do remember hearing something about forsaking all, once, from a visiting missionary couple who were speaking to my youth group. However, even then, it wasn't something presented as a standard for Christians, but rather, something that some Christians may (or may not) feel led to and they were talking more about forsaking troublesome circumstances rather than materialism.

I think there is a lot of that "I don't feel led to follow that teaching" in Christianity today and it's likely that the reason these teachings about materialism are avoided is because of the root of all evil.

Everyone knows that we're not supposed to love money, but no one really admits to money loving. As a result, no one seems to even know what money loving is, except to point to large corporations with billions of dollars.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Of course !!! If we don't have faith how can we start our salvation!?

One is saved. we do not start our salvation.

 

[Alithis]

Believing leads to Acts 2:38, which leads to Salvation, which is by Grace because we have Faith. Because of Faith we follow Christ and seek his will for our lives. Believing and acting on that leads one to Christ. Believing but never acting on it leads no where. "Do you believe in one God? The devil also believeth and trembles." So we see that the Devil believes in God, but is not saved. But belief acted upon does.....we are indeed saved by Grace. But what does Grace mean.......? I searched that out many years ago,....but that would be another thread.

 

[Norah63]

And they heard them praying in the spirit. Some thought they were full of wine.
When the cloven tongues lighted on them all were filled to overflowing.
Pray on church! Pray with the spirit and pray with the understanding. Agree with God on every word. If we would keep silent the rocks would cry out!
Send the breath of our voice into the air and establish God's Word in this earth, because it is forever setteled in heaven already.

 

[Jeo7]

[/b][/color]

One is saved. we do not start our salvation.

We are saved because it is FAITH which gives us strengh. But it is us carrying the cross daily which saves us from sin. A constant work on the cross. Crucifying the flesh to the cross.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Originally Posted by ToBeBlessed

[/b][/color]

One is saved. we do not start our salvation.
​

We are saved because it is FAITH which gives us strengh. But it is us carrying the cross daily which saves us from sin. A constant work on the cross. Crucifying the flesh to the cross.

That is not true. We are saved, we recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, through our efforts sanctifies us over time. However, we are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ only once. We die with Christ and our crucified with Him, only once. I'll add the specific bible verses that shows this below.

Romans 5
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."



Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

 

[Jeo7]

Originally Posted by ToBeBlessed

[/b][/color]

One is saved. we do not start our salvation.

​

That is not true. We are saved, we recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, through our efforts sanctifies us over time. However, we are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ only once. We die with Christ and our crucified with Him, only once. I'll add the specific bible verses that shows this below.

Romans 5
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."



Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Always remember to who Paul was spreading the gospel about salvation to. The gentiles did not know a thing about who this Jesus was.
We must be crucified with Christ for us to live ! It is a daily work of salvation. Here in Romans, Paul is teaching us that because of the grace of God and what Christ did on the cross, we are saved ! It is a message ABOUT salvation,
It's like you saying how great your mother was/is at cooking to people who don't know her, and you tell those people that it is because of your mother, that you (her daughter) can cook great ! And anyone who FOLLOWS and BELIEVES in your mother's cooking, will COOK like her. But you have to learn how to cook nevertheless. The food wont cook by itself through FAITH is it???
We must carry our cross daily. That's our way to SALVATION. Following the EXAMPLE of Jesus The Christ.

 

[pescador]

We are saved because it is FAITH which gives us strengh. But it is us carrying the cross daily which saves us from sin. A constant work on the cross. Crucifying the flesh to the cross.

So Jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough? We are saved from sin by the works that we must do? Jeo, in just a few sentences you have undone the New Covenant and reinstated the Law. When Jesus told his disciples to take up their crosses daily he was speaking to Jews who were under the law. It has no meaning to those of us who are saved by grace and have entered God's rest. None!

I can't believe that you can't (or won't) understand that. I strongly suggest that you read the bible and pray to God to open your eyes.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Always remember to who Paul was spreading the gospel about salvation to. The gentiles did not know a thing about who this Jesus was.
We must be crucified with Christ for us to live ! It is a daily work of salvation. Here in Romans, Paul is teaching us that because of the grace of God and what Christ did on the cross, we are saved ! It is a message ABOUT salvation,
It's like you saying how great your mother was/is at cooking to people who don't know her, and you tell those people that it is because of your mother, that you (her daughter) can cook great ! And anyone who FOLLOWS and BELIEVES in your mother's cooking, will COOK like her. But you have to learn how to cook nevertheless. The food wont cook by itself through FAITH is it???
We must carry our cross daily. That's our way to SALVATION. Following the EXAMPLE of Jesus The Christ.

No, that's not true.

We are given the GIFT of salvation. We are sealed for eternity. God has never broken His covenants.

If we had to earn it, God wouldn't have said it was a gift and a gift of grace. We know that all righteousness we do is like filthy rags


Isaiah 64:6
"And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"

Romans 4:6
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

[Jeo7]

No, that's not true.

We are given the GIFT of salvation. We are sealed for eternity. God has never broken His covenants.

If we had to earn it, God wouldn't have said it was a gift and a gift of grace. We know that all righteousness we do is like filthy rags


Isaiah 64:6
"And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"

Romans 4:6
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Yes. Nothing we do by the WORKS of the FLESH is pleasing to God. But the WORKS of the SPIRIT is what saves us.

 

[pescador]

Yes. Nothing we do by the WORKS of the FLESH is pleasing to God. But the WORKS of the SPIRIT is what saves us.

What is your scriptural reference for this heresy?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Yes. Nothing we do by the WORKS of the FLESH is pleasing to God. But the WORKS of the SPIRIT is what saves us.

All works that we do are to glorify god. We are to judge each other by our fruit. The fruit of the spirit;

Galatians 5:22-23
"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."


This is the full context:

Galatians 5:16-26
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[c] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."