We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Jeo7]

BTW, regarding convenientlvation by works argument, people often quote Ephesians 2:8, but there is more to what Paul said. Here's a couple more verses added to show context:



I get the feeling verse 8 has become so well known in the church world that most people now quote it without even considering verse 9 and 10 for context (maybe without even knowing those two verses exist).

Sure, if someone is bragging about how they deserve a place in Heaven because of their own goodness then definitely quote these verses to them.

It hardly seems relevant, though, for a genuine discussion about obedience to Jesus (which Jesus made quite clear that he expects from his followers).

But then, how do we decide when a discussion about legitimate obedience to Jesus turns in to people bragging about their goodness?

Any ideas?

Paul and the disciples warned us how salvation should not be done from the exterior, works that can only be seen as "good deeds" while remaining a SINNER from within. That's it. We are not saved by WORKS OF THE FLESH, but we are saved by the WORKs God does WITHIN us, the WORKS of the SPIRIT.
Paul was very clear with this. But it's convenient for us Christians to just READ the EASY part about salvation and NOT actually WORK on our salvation lol just like Paul said, "Continue to WORK OUT your own salvation with fear......"
Paul was very faithful to God, and we should be like him, OBEDIENT TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.
That's the ONLY way to salvation. Christ died for us to FOLLOW HIS FOOTSTEPS, not to talk about it in church and USE HIS NAME IN VAIN.
"Carry your cross if you want to follow me." - Jesus The Christ

 

[BryanW92]

Because Christians today are not led by the spirit of Christ. Again, as Jesus warned us about. He said MANY will be deceived.

Do you have a church that you regularly attend? Are all the people there just going through the motions? If so, why do you attend?

If you don't regularly attend a church and your comment above is made from the outside looking in, then you should consider that you might not know what you are talking about.

I see spirit-led Christians every day who are strong in faith and strong in works. Each one has his or her own balance between faith and works, but the faith is present and their desire to work comes from that faith.

Sure, there are some people who think they have faith...but they don't. There are some who do good works, but for their own reasons. But, most of the church-going Christians I know do both and they work sacrificially, as they were taught by Jesus, as a demonstration of their faith and the grace that they have received.

 

[Jeo7]

And to those of you who responded back in regards of my post earlier, how if 3 billion christian didn't exist the world would be a worse place ext...and how they're millions of Christians doing GOOD DEEDS for other countries ext ext that's exactly my point. Those works are pointless for our salvation. Not saying they're great things these organizations are doing, but what are these Christians doing from within?? Are they working on their salvation!??
THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS. If humanity didn't sin, if humanity really FOLLOWED THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST, we wouldn't have the world we have today.
3 billion Christians, that's all most half of the population. Why don't we lead by exampld, by the example that Christ showed us.

 

[Jeo7]

Do you have a church that you regularly attend? Are all the people there just going through the motions? If so, why do you attend?

If you don't regularly attend a church and your comment above is made from the outside looking in, then you should consider that you might not know what you are talking about.

I see spirit-led Christians every day who are strong in faith and strong in works. Each one has his or her own balance between faith and works, but the faith is present and their desire to work comes from that faith.

Sure, there are some people who think they have faith...but they don't. There are some who do good works, but for their own reasons. But, most of the church-going Christians I know do both and they work sacrificially, as they were taught by Jesus, as a demonstration of their faith and the grace that they have received.

Read john, remember they're many spirits who deceive us. But this is not the thread to discuss this. We need to follow Christ as he showed us how, NOT HOW A PASTOR TOLD US HOW.

 

[Ascendo]

BTW, regarding the salvation by works argument, people often quote Ephesians 2:8, but there is more to what Paul said. Here's a couple more verses added to show context:



I get the feeling verse 8 has become so well known in the church world that most people now quote it without even considering verse 9 and 10 for context (maybe without even knowing those two verses exist).

Sure, if someone is bragging about how they deserve a place in Heaven because of their own goodness then definitely quote these verses to them.

It hardly seems relevant, though, for a genuine discussion about obedience to Jesus (which Jesus made quite clear that he expects from his followers).

But then, how do we decide when a discussion about legitimate obedience to Jesus turns in to people bragging about their goodness?

Any ideas?

For what it's worth, I've never heard Ephesians 2:8 without 9 following immediately after.

That's one of the first verses taught in Bible memorization programs, like AWANA.

 

[dragongunner]

Read john, remember they're many spirits who deceive us. But this is not the thread to discuss this. We need to follow Christ as he showed us how, NOT HOW A PASTOR TOLD US HOW.

I see your still playing dodgeball.

 

[Jeo7]

BTW, regarding the salvation by works argument, people often quote Ephesians 2:8, but there is more to what Paul said. Here's a couple more verses added to show context:



I get the feeling verse 8 has become so well known in the church world that most people now quote it without even considering verse 9 and 10 for context (maybe without even knowing those two verses exist).

Sure, if someone is bragging about how they deserve a place in Heaven because of their own goodness then definitely quote these verses to them.

It hardly seems relevant, though, for a genuine discussion about obedience to Jesus (which Jesus made quite clear that he expects from his followers).

But then, how do we decide when a discussion about legitimate obedience to Jesus turns in to people bragging about their goodness?

Any ideas?

We are suppose to show our good deeds, not brag them and do them for "self-fulfillment". Like what the Pharisees did. They self glorified themselves yet were hypocrites of the Law, proclaimed they followed it but didn't. If we follow the teachings of christ show them ! With action, and glory. But if you do good deeds for the sake of proving how "great" you are don't.
It's that simple.
You are the LIGHT of the world Jesus said. You don't hide a lamp on a basket, you hang it on top of the room, so it lights up the whole house. So must we show our GOOD DEEDS. - Jesus The Christ
Our LIGHT as Christians to the world.

 

[BryanW92]

Read john, remember they're many spirits who deceive us. But this is not the thread to discuss this. We need to follow Christ as he showed us how, NOT HOW A PASTOR TOLD US HOW.

I'm not talking about a pastor. I'm talking about physically belonging to a community of believers. Quite often, the lone Christian who has forsaken regular fellowship starts to believe that he has received some special revelation that all the others are wrong. They talk a lot about "following Christ" but Christ gave us the church for a reason. When we are apart from the body for too long, we start to convince ourselves of things that aren't true--but they sure sound true to us.

Once you have set yourself apart, you start believing that you alone are sanctified or that you know secrets that they don't know because they are fooled by their church, their pastor, or even by the rest of the body.

 

[Jeo7]

I'm not talking about a pastor. I'm talking about physically belonging to a community of believers. Quite often, the lone Christian who has forsaken regular fellowship starts to believe that he has received some special revelation that all the others are wrong. They talk a lot about "following Christ" but Christ gave us the church for a reason. When we are apart from the body for too long, we start to convince ourselves of things that aren't true--but they sure sound true to us.

Once you have set yourself apart, you start believing that you alone are sanctified or that you know secrets that they don't know because they are fooled by their church, their pastor, or even by the rest of the body.

Read Mark 4, Matthew 13....Read what Paul said about the "Mysteries Of God discussed only to the mature" in Corinthians 2
Yes, they're secrets only a few Christians know. Remember Jesus was a Jew. We Jews had and continue to have a VERBAL tradition, and Jesus taught the same. This VERBAL tradition is passed down from master to student, and they're many things Jesus taught which you cannot find in the New Testament. It is however, in the OT.
Why do you think Jesus always said, "Anyone with ears let them listen, those with the eyes to see let them see."
The Mysteries of God is not for everyone. Pearls aren't for pigs,
But again, this is a whole different topic for this thread.

 

[BryanW92]

Yes, they're secrets only a few Christians know. Remember Jesus was a Jew. We Jews had and continue to have a VERBAL tradition, and Jesus taught the same. This VERBAL tradition is passed down from master to student, and they're many things Jesus taught which you cannot find in the New Testament. It is however, in the OT.
Why do you think Jesus always said, "Anyone with ears let them listen, those with the eyes to see let them see."
The Mysteries of God is not for everyone. Pearls aren't for pigs,

OK. That's all I needed to hear. You say that the bible is incomplete and insufficient and you possess special knowledge.

Christians say that the bible is complete and sufficient and contains the knowledge that God wanted us to have.

 

[Jeo7]

OK. That's all I needed to hear. You say that the bible is incomplete and insufficient and you possess special knowledge.

Christians say that the bible is complete and sufficient and contains the knowledge that God wanted us to have.

Lol this is the secret, it is complete. Everything is in the scriptures But not everyone has the EYES to see.

 

[Jeo7]

OK. That's all I needed to hear. You say that the bible is incomplete and insufficient and you possess special knowledge.

Christians say that the bible is complete and sufficient and contains the knowledge that God wanted us to have.

Let me ask you, is the gates of heaven wide or narrow? Don't tell me anything, just think

 

[Light hearted]

3 billion Christians, that's all most half of the population. Why don't we lead by exampld, by the example that Christ showed us.

Yikes, half the population, Christians, supposedly saved Christians, this seems very far fetched.

If I was to agree to half the population declaring themselves saved, I have to raise an eyebrow to that figure considering as I become more involved with "Christian" people I am surprised by the amount that admit they said the prayer of salvation as a child, yet knew they were not truly saved til much later in life.

So the question is--- how many of these 3 billion are self proclaimed vs God proclaimed Christians.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You are right that we are not saved by a magical claim that we make. We are also not saved by anything that we do. Our "good deeds" are but filthy rags to God. Do you really think that God who can create a universe just by saying that it really keeps count of your deeds? How many old ladies do you have to help across the street wipes out your life of sin?

We are saved by pure grace that is bestowed up on us by God. By accepting his Son, you are accepting God's very existence. He sent us Jesus, and it was written in the bible so that future generations could know Jesus. Anyone who hears of Jesus and refuses to believe is calling God a liar.

So, God does all the work. All you have to do is believe...really believe, and not just accept that Jesus was a great philosopher or prophet, and that God isn't just some random event in the universe.

The good deeds are a physical manifestation of the changes that are performed on you by God's Grace. They are not the coin by which you purchase grace.

 

[Jeo7]

Yikes, half the population, Christians, supposedly saved Christians, this seems very far fetched.

If I was to agree to half the population declaring themselves saved, I have to raise an eyebrow to that figure considering as I become more involved with "Christian" people I am surprised by the amount that admit they said the prayer of salvation as a child, yet knew they were not truly saved til much later in life.

So the question is--- how many of these 3 billion are self proclaimed vs God proclaimed Christians.

That's exactly my point. We should all live by the example of Christ. Just imagine, 3 billion christ's living in this world. This planet would not be the same

 

[Jeo7]

Brother, we need faith, we need the grace of God to start our salvation. Yes God works in us, when we allow it !
It is US who have to pick up the CROSS, Jesus already did to show us how is done, so where's ours!??

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Col 2:6
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him

1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Love flows from a believing heart. A believing heart knows it deserves hell but has been given life because of Jesus. Out of that reality, love flows for God and others, for the two are linked.

1 John 4:20
20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Love, in the biblical, Christ-like manner is COMPLETELY devoid of self.

1 Cor 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

So when Jesus says if you want to follow Me deny yourself first then pick up your cross and follow Me, He's talking about living a life of love.

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12-13
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Christ-like love is sacrificial love. That type of love only comes out of a heart that is full of the Holy Spirit that God gives to all who believe (1 John 3:23-24; Eph 1:13-14)

Romans 5:5
5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

So as we continue in our belief, love will grow and mature, we'll grow more complete in love.

1 John 4:16-17
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

This is why love is listed first as the fruit of the Spirit, because it's the foremost element to the "fruit of the Spirit". Love... Everything else flows from that, and it all starts and really ends in believing in Jesus.

 

[Jeo7]

Col 2:6
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him

1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Love flows from a believing heart. A believing heart knows it deserves hell but has been given life because of Jesus. Out of that reality, love flows for God and others, for the two are linked.

1 John 4:20
20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Love, in the biblical, Christ-like manner is COMPLETELY devoid of self.

1 Cor 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

So when Jesus says if you want to follow Me deny yourself first then pick up your cross and follow Me, He's talking about living a life of love.

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12-13
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Christ-like love is sacrificial love. That type of love only comes out of a heart that is full of the Holy Spirit that God gives to all who believe (1 John 3:23-24; Eph 1:13-14)

Romans 5:5
5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

So as we continue in our belief, love will grow and mature, we'll grow more complete in love.

1 John 4:16-17
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

This is why love is listed first as the fruit of the Spirit, because it's the foremost element to the "fruit of the Spirit". Love... Everything else flows from that, and it all starts and really ends in believing in Jesus.

Yes !!!! It is the greatest commandment given to us. To LOVE another as ourselves and to God. Jesus showed us what LOVE is all about. That's why he said, "believe in me, believe also in God." Because we must believe that the WORKS Jesus taught us were the WORKS of God, and so must we do the same. Following the example of Jesus The Christ.

 

[tremble]

Some people have asked about the thief on the cross situation and how that relates to being saved by good works. I think what these people are suggesting is that the thief was not able to do good works and yet he was saved. and therefore good works are not a requirement for salvation.

However, we don't know that he didn't do at least some good works in his past. Just because he was caught stealing doesn't mean he didn't do good works. It may have been his first offense. Maybe he was falsely convicted and wasn't a thief at all? Maybe he was stealing food for starving children?

But aside from, that, even if he really was a genuine criminal who deserved his punishment, the argument that he wasn't able to do good works still doesn't address the issue of good works and it's relation to salvation, because God looks on the heart.

The thief wasn't able to do good works in his situation, but God would know that if the thief did have the chance (after his experience on the cross) he probably would have gone on to use his life to do good works for God.

 

[Jeo7]

Some people have asked about the thief on the cross situation and how that relates to being saved by good works. I think what these people are suggesting is that the thief was not able to do good works and yet he was saved. and therefore good works are not a requirement for salvation.

However, we don't know that he didn't do at least some good works in his past. Just because he was caught stealing doesn't mean he didn't do good works. It may have been his first offense. Maybe he was falsely convicted and wasn't a thief at all? Maybe he was stealing food for starving children?

But aside from, that, even if he really was a genuine criminal who deserved his punishment, the argument that he wasn't able to do good works still doesn't address the issue of good works and it's relation to salvation, because God looks on the heart.

The thief wasn't able to do good works in his situation, but God would know that if the thief did have the chance (after his experience on the cross) he probably would have gone on to use his life to do good works for God.

Again, what was the first thing Jesus taught? "REPENT !! For the Kingdom of God is near." To acknowledge we have fallen short from glory is the first thing we must do for our salvation.