We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Jeo7]

The answer to that is BOTH. They do not disagree unless you start prooftexting and ignoring context. A concordance is like fire: it's a great tool, but can be very destructive if used improperly.

We are not PAUL-IANS we are CHRIST-IANS lol We should be like Paul, being faithful to God and Christ, not following Paul's footsteps, but the footsteps of CHRIST just like Paul did.

 

[Omena]

I didn't say that there aren't "calls to action". I am saying that action/works are not a part of salvation. They are one of the fruits of salvation. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to do good works. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to work for sanctification. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus describes the perfect human state. Who knows how many times he gave that sermon (remember that he was an itinerant preacher) but you get the idea that it was an important one. Yet, after preaching about this state of perfection that seems to call for works as the path to salvation, he still knew that he needed to die for us.

It can't be said often enough, if man could work his way to salvation, then there would have not been any need for the cross. The cross offends those who think themselves to be righteous because they see it as something that defiles heaven by letting in the unclean and unworthy.

So if I understand you correctly, you agree that all of us here should be doing what Jesus told us to do, because we all have faith in Jesus, and those works should be a product of our faith. It's not that we're trying to do those things in order to get to heaven, just that we know we should do (and WANT to do) those things because that's our duty as a new person in Christ, and as one who has accepted salvation. That's great. But then why do people get so upset when someone suggests that we should start doing what Jesus told us to do? Can anyone see the problem? Would others agree that if someone does NOT want to do what Jesus told us to, that that would be an indication that they don't really have faith? It has to go both ways, right?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

yes

 

[Ascendo]

But I can't believe that he was saying "do nothing, just believe that Jesus is the Son of God". That doesn't line up with the cornerstone at all, no matter how many ways you try to twist it.

Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?

 

[Omena]

Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?

The main thing that comes to my mind here is the fact that we're responsible for what we know (i.e. to whom much is given, much will be required). As 21st century Christians, we have a lot of information about what Jesus asks his followers to do, and that makes us responsible to do those things, I believe. (The thief on the cross probably didn't know anything about what Jesus was teaching, but then there's no real way to know that, since very little is said about him.)

It may even be that in the last days, people will be judged worthy by Jesus, just on the basis of them choosing the right path at the last minute. But we are not those people. We are Christians right now, and we have a responsibility to live as Christ taught, and then teach others to do the same.

 

[samjazz]

By the numbers...

1 Jesus paid the entire price for our salvation.
2 There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation.
3 While still sinners, Jesus made this salvation available to us
4 We accept that salvation by faith (not works).
5 If we accept that salvation, we become dead to our old selves, we are born anew
6 We are so filled with love and joy (fruits of the spirit), that we are compelled to share this message with each other and the world (for whome hearts break when we see the suffering caused by sin).
7 By doing so we are obeying the will of God as outlined in the Holy Bible "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:30-31 (NIV)

Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is also worthless.

My love to all who struggle with the basics of Christianity. I would consider these points to be absolutely basic to the Christian faith, they are all based on the Word of God in the Holy Bible.

Peace in Christ Jesus name,

---Sam

 

[Ascendo]

So what you're saying is that we don't really know...

My point is that we should probably stop making our guesses into doctrine.

 

[samjazz]

Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?

Sir, what is it about that this (Luke 23:32-43) passage that you need help with the explanation of? I assume I missed the gist of an earlier post (I did read them all, but I think I missed something).

Your brother in Christ,

---Sam

 

[Jeo7]

Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?

What was the first thing Jesus said before starting his congregation?

 

[Ascendo]

Sir, what is it about that this (Luke 23:32-43) passage that you need help with the explanation of? I assume I missed the gist of an earlier post (I did read them all, but I think I missed something).

Your brother in Christ,

---Sam

My question was in response to the assertion that salvation is Christ + works. That idea doesn't have any way to explain the thief on the cross.

Jesus saved the thief on the cross. The thief did nothing other than acknowledge Jesus. What was in the thief's heart at that moment? I have no idea.

Making doctrinal statements that add or subtract "stuff" to what we see in the Bible is dangerous. I would say the same to verses where it seems like we need to earn our salvation.

I don't pretend to have an exact answer where "saving" happens, but when we try to reduce salvation to a formula we're missing the point.

 

[samjazz]

My question was in response to the assertion that salvation is Christ + works. That idea doesn't have any way to explain the thief on the cross.

Jesus saved the thief on the cross. The thief did nothing other than acknowledge Jesus. What was in the thief's heart at that moment? I have no idea.

Making doctrinal statements that add or subtract "stuff" to what we see in the Bible is dangerous. I would say the same to verses where it seems like we need to earn our salvation.

I don't pretend to have an exact answer where "saving" happens, but when we try to reduce salvation to a formula we're missing the point.

Agreed. Salvation is based purely on the grace of God, we can never ever earn it. It seems to me that works (after our salvation) are a reflection of that grace in our lives.

 

[Jeo7]

My question was in response to the assertion that salvation is Christ + works. That idea doesn't have any way to explain the thief on the cross.

Jesus saved the thief on the cross. The thief did nothing other than acknowledge Jesus. What was in the thief's heart at that moment? I have no idea.

Making doctrinal statements that add or subtract "stuff" to what we see in the Bible is dangerous. I would say the same to verses where it seems like we need to earn our salvation.

I don't pretend to have an exact answer where "saving" happens, but when we try to reduce salvation to a formula we're missing the point.

What was the first thing Jesus said before starting his congregation? What must we first do for our salvation?

 

[Jeo7]

Guys, we need the grace of God to be saved, we need FAITH to be saved ! Without it, our works on the cross would not be fruitfull.
We must be obedient to the teachings of Christ, if we are not, what is salvation?? Didn't he die on that cross for us? As an example of our own cross that we must carry?? JUST AS PAUL AND THE DISCIPLES DID !???

"So why do you keep calling me 'Lord, Lord!' when you don't do what I say?" - Jesus The Christ

 

[Jeo7]

Christianity since the time of the Roman Church, has distorted the very essence of what it's all about being a follower of Christ.
Why do you think we have 100's of Christian denomination!??
Christ is ONE, his message is ONE. Where's the TRUTH in Christianity then??

 

[pescador]

Agreed. Salvation is based purely on the grace of God, we can never ever earn it. It seems to me that works (after our salvation) are a reflection of that grace in our lives.

Very, very true!

 

[Jeo7]

Very, very true!

We need works brother. Works that help us improve with our walk with Christ. The works Christ and the disciples talked about how we must avoid and is not worthy for salvation, is the works that are done of the flesh, self-fulfillmen, self-righteousness, works that make us look clean in the outside but remain sinners in the inside.
I was born Jewish, and the message of Jesus was directed to our leaders of the time, and made an example out of the Pharisees. They where HYPOCRITES ! Making themselves RIGHTEOUS and pretending to follow the Law.
Are we Christians the same? Making ourselves GLORIOUS unto the Kingdom of God, but deep within are HYPOCRITES because we don't stay obedient to the teachings of Christ??
Where's our Cross Christians??

 

[samjazz]

We need works brother. Works that help us improve with our walk with Christ. The works Christ and the disciples talked about how we must avoid and is not worthy for salvation, is the works that are done of the flesh, self-fulfillmen, self-righteousness, works that make us look clean in the outside but remain sinners in the inside.
I was born Jewish, and the message of Jesus was directed to our leaders of the time, and made an example out of the Pharisees. They where HYPOCRITES ! Making themselves RIGHTEOUS and pretending to follow the Law.
Are we Christians the same? Making ourselves GLORIOUS unto the Kingdom of God, but deep within are HYPOCRITES because we don't stay obedient to the teachings of Christ??
Where's our Cross Christians??

May I humbly offer that indeed, we do need works, but not as a means of salvation, rather as evidence of God working in our lives. We do works because Jesus has placed in the believer's heart a desire to nurture and grow His Church.

 

[Jeo7]

May I humbly offer that indeed, we do need works, but not as a means of salvation, rather as evidence of God working in our lives. We do works because Jesus has placed in the believer's heart a desire to nurture and grow His Church.

Yes, I agree. We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God. That's why the first thing Jesus said was, "REPENT !! For the kingdom of God is near." It is God's grace where it all starts, salvation is a DAILY WORK.
Just like Paul did, he carried the cross DAILY. He worked on his IMPERFECTIONS DAILY.
Something most if not all Christians lack because of this "Modern Christian Trend" of salvation through "faith/grace" and not of works, that satisfies our fleshly minds.

 

[samjazz]

Yes, I agree. We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God. That's why the first thing Jesus said was, "REPENT !! For the kingdom of God is near." It is God's grace where it all starts, salvation is a DAILY WORK.
Just like Paul did, he carried the cross DAILY. He worked on his IMPERFECTIONS DAILY.
Something most if not all Christians lack because of this "Modern Christian Trend" of salvation through "faith/grace" and not of works, that satisfies our fleshly minds.

I love your enthusiasm brother! However, a little more scriptural fact checking would be helpful.

Actually, the first recorded statement made by Jesus said is found in Luke 2:49 - And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (NKJV)

Please be very careful with words like "We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God" they could easily be misinterpreted. I assume you are talking about the continuation of the salvation already granted, not in obtaining salvation through works. I would refer you to Philippians 2:12,13 -Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 

[Jeo7]

I love your enthusiasm brother! However, a little more scriptural fact checking would be helpful.

Actually, the first recorded statement made by Jesus said is found in Luke 2:49 - And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (NKJV)

Please be very careful with words like "We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God" they could easily be misinterpreted. I assume you are talking about the continuation of the salvation already granted, not in obtaining salvation through works. I would refer you to Philippians 2:12,13 -Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Jesus did not start his ministry yet. He was a little boy being a trouble maker lol and yes !! If it was the works of our flesh, we could never be saved. It's about working out our salvation with the help of God, and Jesus as our EXAMPLE.