We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Jeo7]

Jesus was very clear about his message. Follow me he said, IAM the way he said. Carry your cross. Show your GOOD DEEDS.
"If you believe in me you will do the same works I've been doing and GREATER WORKS you will do." - Jesus The Christ
Notice how I quote Jesus, not Paul, not any reference I got from a pastor lol are we really Christians?

 

[Jeo7]

Every couple of months, some person comes through here who preaches the doctrine of works-based salvation. Like you, they claim that one cannot be a child of God if they sin. Often, the do not call it "works-based salvation" but that is what they describe when they preach their theology to us.

You can find some verses that do support that theology. But, overall, the whole text of the New Testament disagrees with you. If Paul had a mission of salvation that disagrees with the teaching of Jesus, then Paul was not only wrong, he was evil! That's another characteristic of the works-based people who come through here: they claim that Paul is wrong and Jesus is right.

If a state of sinlessness was possible, then the Cross was not necessary. Even if you claim that the Holy Spirit makes you sinless, then there was no need for the Cross. Jesus could have simply died a natural death after a long ministry and given us the Holy Spirit if that's all it took.

Christ redeems sinners. He propitiates our sin. He nailed the law to the Cross and reconciled us with God. He did all the Works. That is the Good News of the Gospel.

Look man. Paul had a simple mission. To spread the good news, to spread the word of salvation. About salvation. But is Paul our savior or is Jesus? Jesus was very clear when he said, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things i say?"
Think about it.....
And no, Paul was not wrong. Paul was very faithful to God and Christ. It is us Christians who are not. Remember what Paul said, "Im crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me." Where's our Cross people? Where's our own sacrifices to God?

 

[BryanW92]

Look man. Paul had a simple mission. To spread the good news, to spread the word of salvation. About salvation. But is Paul our savior or is Jesus? Jesus was very clear when he said, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things i say?"
Think about it.....
And no, Paul was not wrong. Paul was very faithful to God and Christ. It is us Christians who are not. Remember what Paul said, "Im crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me." Where's our Cross people? Where's our own sacrifices to God?

You assume that anything less than total sacrifice is insufficient. I agree that many so-called Christians don't bear any cross at all. That is the danger of living in a culturally Christian nation. People can claim Christ without even knowing who he really is. If you are speaking about these cultural Christians, then you are right.

But, there are Christians who do bear the cross. But they also live and function in society. They have jobs, hobbies, friends..and they battle sin every day. They are saved through grace and they work hard to show that they are worthy of that grace. They don't work to EARN it, because they can't. None of us can do enough to earn even a sliver of God's grace. But, since they owe a debt they can never pay, they are slaves to Christ.

You see, that's what it means. In the 1st century, when you owed a debt that you couldn't pay, you became indentured to the person to whom you owed the debt. When you become a slave, you have to die to self because you no longer own yourself. Your Master owns you. Jesus is our Master, our Lord. We are his slave forever.

To imply that salvation comes from works says that you can buy your freedom by earning your own salvation apart from Christ and the cross. It is the ultimate in human arrogance to think that we can do that.

 

[Deano715]

None of us are free of sin. That is the very reason Christ did what He did. We try, and we fail. We all need to be saved on a daily basis and the "saving grace" is the only thing that keeps any of us from Hell.

 

[Ascendo]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

Please explain the thief on the cross.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

None of us are free of sin. That is the very reason Christ did what He did. We try, and we fail. We all need to be saved on a daily basis and the "saving grace" is the only thing that keeps any of us from Hell.

If you're not free of sin, why aren't you? read ! 1 John (5 chapters). (treu, caths abnd most religious are not free of sin, most people everywhere are totally in the dark, tricked by their own sin and flesh and leaders...)

You might not be ready to die yet, so read it to know if you are ready or not, and to know that you've not been tricked.
1 John is Scripture. Simple, True and Pure.

 

[dragongunner]

Ok. It's simple. First, I did not quote my own words, but the words of Jesus. If you get an impression of salvation through works, it is because of what the scriptures say, not me. Now, the "WORKS" that Jesus and Paul and the disciples talked about was the self-righteousness of the Pharisees and Leaders of the Jews. Because remember what Jesus said, that we must be RIGHTEOUS to enter the Kingdom. The WORKS that we must avoid is the WORKS of self fulfillment, self righteousness, the works that are merely done by exterior deeds to hide what's interior of ourselves.
We are saved by WORKS people, the Works that we do WITHIN us. Improving ourselves as human beings, and most importantly, as FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST.
There's a huge difference. Carry your cross he said.

You error not knowing the scriptures.....You just said "we are saved by WORKS people." WRONG....show me where JESUS said that, or anyone. Ye are saved by grace and not by WORKS lest any man should boast. You are sooooo Wrong in your interpretation. Your not going to fool anyone, except perhaps yourself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus was very clear when he said, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things i say?"

You cannot do what Jesus says if you are not saved. So doing works cannot save you. But, if you ARE SAVED, THEN you will do what Jesus says. THEN you will do what ABBA SAYS. (it is BECAUSE you are HIS CHILD, NOT to become HIS CHILD).
Still, remember, IF YOU SAY YOU ARE HIS, but continue in sin, then the BIBLE says in several places that YOU ARE NOT HIS. SO, IF YOU ARE HIS, don't sin. IF YOU ARE NOT HIS, then stop saying you are.

This is very clearly written in 1 John, in case someone is looking for it and doesn't know where it is.

 

[Jeo7]

Ok. What is the first thing Jesus said before starting his congregation? This goes to all of you..

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus was very clear when he said, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things i say?"

You cannot do what Jesus says if you are not saved. So doing works cannot save you. But, if you ARE SAVED, THEN you will do what Jesus says. THEN you will do what ABBA SAYS. (it is BECAUSE you are HIS CHILD, NOT to become HIS CHILD).
Still, remember, IF YOU SAY YOU ARE HIS, but continue in sin, then the BIBLE says in several places that YOU ARE NOT HIS. SO, IF YOU ARE HIS, don't sin. IF YOU ARE NOT HIS, then stop saying you are.

This is very clearly written in 1 John, in case someone is looking for it and doesn't know where it is.

Yes, it is all in 1 John:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Jeo7]

You error not knowing the scriptures.....You just said "we are saved by WORKS people." WRONG....show me where JESUS said that, or anyone. Ye are saved by grace and not by WORKS lest any man should boast. You are sooooo Wrong in your interpretation. Your not going to fool anyone, except perhaps yourself.

I never said I was right. Why are you being defensive? Saying I'm wrong?..It's a simple question that I asked. Do we follow Christ or Paul? The message about salvation or the message of salvation which Jesus taught?.... It's a tough question, but think about it.....Yes we do need faith in order to be saved. But faith alone does not save us from sin.

 

[Jeo7]

None of us are free of sin. That is the very reason Christ did what He did. We try, and we fail. We all need to be saved on a daily basis and the "saving grace" is the only thing that keeps any of us from Hell.

Exactly !! That is the very reason Christ did what he did !! He died on that cross to SHOW US HOW IT'S DONE. He shed his blood for us didn't he? For what? To just talk about it and magically pretend it makes us white as snow? Sinless? Blameless?? ....Jesus suffered, for us to FOLLOW his footsteps. 1 Peter 2:21

 

[spr]

It isn't magic, it is the power of God and the blood of the Lamb of God. Those things alone make us perfect with God, because He sees his Son when he looks at us. He sees who we are in Christ. But of course Christ is our judge, and he will correct us accordingly. We don't have to fear that were not doing perfectly, because he will guide us, the great Shepard that he is.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

Are we really doing this anti-Paul thing again? Even though it's been refuted billions of times? Move it to Unorthodox Discussion please.

 

[Omena]

Jeo7, I just wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with the churches today is the same problem that existed in Jesus' day, and that is that they have left out the chief cornerstone (i.e. the teachings of Jesus). I found it interesting that Bryan feels the overall message of the New Testament is against doing works, because when I read the New Testament (specifically the Gospels), all I see are calls to action.

The only way in which I can slightly agree with the "we're not saved by works" doctrine, is the point that none of us can live by the teachings of Jesus perfectly. However, overall I am really against that doctrine, because almost the entire world uses it as an excuse to ignore everything Jesus told us to. I think grace does play a role, in that it makes up for our areas where we fall short, but that doesn't mean we can just give up trying altogether. Doing so would be an abuse of God's grace.

 

[Omena]

Something else I just wanted to quickly point out, is that people are so quick to slap a "works-based salvation" label on anyone who preaches obedience to the teachings of Jesus. It's so convenient because they have that verse from Paul which says we are not saved by works. I believe that Paul was either mistaken when he wrote that, or he was trying to communicate that we can't be perfect and that we still need God's grace. But I can't believe that he was saying "do nothing, just believe that Jesus is the Son of God". That doesn't line up with the cornerstone at all, no matter how many ways you try to twist it.

 

[JGiddings]

Yeah I gotta admit the whole "works-based salvation" label is thrown around without thought now a days.
*subscribed*

 

[BryanW92]

It's a simple question that I asked. Do we follow Christ or Paul?

The answer to that is BOTH. They do not disagree unless you start prooftexting and ignoring context. A concordance is like fire: it's a great tool, but can be very destructive if used improperly.

 

[BryanW92]

Jeo7, I just wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with the churches today is the same problem that existed in Jesus' day, and that is that they have left out the chief cornerstone (i.e. the teachings of Jesus). I found it interesting that Bryan feels the overall message of the New Testament is against doing works, because when I read the New Testament (specifically the Gospels), all I see are calls to action.

The only way in which I can slightly agree with the "we're not saved by works" doctrine, is the point that none of us can live by the teachings of Jesus perfectly. However, overall I am really against that doctrine, because almost the entire world uses it as an excuse to ignore everything Jesus told us to. I think grace does play a role, in that it makes up for our areas where we fall short, but that doesn't mean we can just give up trying altogether. Doing so would be an abuse of God's grace.

I didn't say that there aren't "calls to action". I am saying that action/works are not a part of salvation. They are one of the fruits of salvation. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to do good works. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to work for sanctification. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus describes the perfect human state. Who knows how many times he gave that sermon (remember that he was an itinerant preacher) but you get the idea that it was an important one. Yet, after preaching about this state of perfection that seems to call for works as the path to salvation, he still knew that he needed to die for us.

It can't be said often enough, if man could work his way to salvation, then there would have not been any need for the cross. The cross offends those who think themselves to be righteous because they see it as something that defiles heaven by letting in the unclean and unworthy.

Billy Graham, whom I consider to be one of the greatest men of our time, would tell you the same thing. He would not consider himself worthy on his own merits even with all the things he's done in life for the Kingdom. He would say that he is only made worthy through the blood of Christ that was poured out on the cross. I'm not putting words in his mouth. His sermons are on Youtube. He says that in quite a few of them.

 

[Jeo7]

Jeo7, I just wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with the churches today is the same problem that existed in Jesus' day, and that is that they have left out the chief cornerstone (i.e. the teachings of Jesus). I found it interesting that Bryan feels the overall message of the New Testament is against doing works, because when I read the New Testament (specifically the Gospels), all I see are calls to action.

The only way in which I can slightly agree with the "we're not saved by works" doctrine, is the point that none of us can live by the teachings of Jesus perfectly. However, overall I am really against that doctrine, because almost the entire world uses it as an excuse to ignore everything Jesus told us to. I think grace does play a role, in that it makes up for our areas where we fall short, but that doesn't mean we can just give up trying altogether. Doing so would be an abuse of God's grace.

Thank you Omega. Look guys. Paul and the disciples went about spreading the good new to different tribes and nations. The message about salvation is not the message of salvation, Jesus taught salvation, Paul and the disciples taught about the man who showed the world salvation. Get it? When Paul said things like, "Proclaim his name, and you will be saved !" or "We are saved by the blood of Jesus !" Ext ext...these were concepts given to the churches/tribes/nations to spread the word about this man Jesus The Christ, who TAUGHT us a way to salvation. For example, when we say, "Jesus died for our sins, and he shed his blood for us", what does it mean to us Christians?
Paul and the disciples taught the gentiles that this man Jesus The Christ sacrificed everything for us. But this is the kicker, because he SHOWED US HOW, not simply because he bled, and suffered the reason we are saved, but because of what HE DID, WE NOW KNOW WHAT TO DO.

Put it this way. Let's say a couple gets married, they have a son, the father who was an alcoholic gave up drinking for his child, gets a job and works hard to maintain his family, gives everyhing he has for the benefit of his child. After 2 years he gets cancer, and though he went through pain he continues working hard for his family. Their son turns 3 years old and his father gets sick, and in his death bed he tells his child's mother how when he grows up to remind him who his father was and the SACRIFICES he did for his son. So she does....the child grows up to be 16 and his mother reminds him of how great his father was, the SACRIFICES he did for him, and the SUFFERING he went through for his son and family to have a better life.
Jesus died for us, shed his blood for us, suffered, leaving us an EXAMPLE for us to follow.