We Are ISRAEL!!!

[timothyu]

So it would seem there is more than ample evidence that both houses were present in Paul's day.

And all non Jewish or affiliated Hebrew tribes were called gentiles. Sibling rivalry.

 

[Gup20]

I have fathered 3 sons. Even in that case I would say they are my seed, not my seeds. Seed can be collective as well as singular.

The same is true of the Hebrew word. Yet Paul makes the grammatical distinction in specifically denoting it's singularity in Genesis 15 and 17 (the verses he quotes) to drive home the point that when God said the word "seed" to Abraham in Genesis 15:5, he was talking about Jesus.

[Gen 15:5-6 KJV] 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

[Gal 3:6, 16 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

So what we see is that it isn't that Abraham believed God when God said any random thing... Abraham believed God SPECIFICALLY when God was talking about Jesus Christ. So then from Galatians 3:16, we know that Genesis 15:5 was God preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believed the gospel, he was made righteous. Indeed, that is the very point and context to Galatians 3:16:

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
​

But Paul goes even further in a mirror passage in Romans 4:

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
​

So just like the Gal 3:6-9 passage we see the purpose of faith itself being described. The purpose for faith is NOT to qualify one for righteousness, but to qualify one as a descendant of Abraham. God has ALREADY given a promise that the descendants of Abraham would all INHERIT the righteousness given to Abraham. However, here God is saying that it is not only those who are of the circumcision who qualify, but also those uncircumcised persons who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Abraham who qualify as Abraham's descendants and therefore heirs of the world.

These two branches of Abraham's offspring - one by the woman who is the covenant of The Law, and one by the woman who is the covenant of faith - are what Isaiah spoke of:

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

 

[Copperhead]

Still, the Abrahamic covenant has yet to be fully realized, no matter how one parses the words and their meanings. All the land from the river of Egypt to the the Euphrates River has never been possessed by the descendants of Abraham. That has still yet to be fulfilled and it is with the descendants not the one descendent, just like the first time they were in the Land. That land covenant was not to Yeshua alone. So while Yeshua is indeed of the seed of Abraham since He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, that doesn't mean that the collective seed of Abraham are not still in view. He will preside over it in the future, but the covenant is with the Hebrew people. And it was reaffirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Randy777]

Still, the Abrahamic covenant has yet to be fully realized, no matter how one parses the words and their meanings. All the land from the river of Egypt to the the Euphrates River has never been possessed by the descendants of Abraham. That has still yet to be fulfilled and it is with the descendants not the one descendent, just like the first time they were in the Land. That land covenant was not to Yeshua alone. So while Yeshua is indeed of the seed of Abraham since He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, that doesn't mean that the collective seed of Abraham are not still in view. He will preside over it in the future, but the covenant is with the Hebrew people. And it was reaffirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

The law introduced does not set aside the previous "promise" to Abraham.
The promise that his descendants would inherit the land God promised Him. Jesus doesn't take away from that promise either rather in Him its fulfilled. The mystery that was revealed was that the gentiles in Christ would also inherit. God gave the right for ALL who accepted Jesus to be called the "children of God". God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous even in Israel. No one was saved by their heritage alone. If ones heart has been circumcised by the Spirit of Christ then they are in a covenant relationship with God. Those that have that circumcision belong to the church built by Jesus. They are of the same family. There is no other way. It is Jesus that we are held together and sustained. The same gospel message that was introduced into Israel by Jesus,(salvation by the forgiveness of sins), was sent into all nations. Nations that worshiped many false Gods with many different customs. That message also includes a day of wrath on the ungodly. Abraham was from UR and Davids grandmother was a Moabite.

Jesus has inherited ALL things. There are no boundaries. In the days of the sounding of the 7th trump the Kingdom's of the whole world will become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.

I expect Jesus's throne will be in Israel. I am not so sure that all the children can fit in Israel. The gathering from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. A people clothed with immortality.

No one in this day and age can know if they are a direct descendant of Jacob. They can know if they belong to Christ. So why the need for all this discussion? We in Christ will inherit salvation and be resurrected. We will be with the Lord.

 

[Gup20]

Still, the Abrahamic covenant has yet to be fully realized, no matter how one parses the words and their meanings. All the land from the river of Egypt to the the Euphrates River has never been possessed by the descendants of Abraham. That has still yet to be fulfilled and it is with the descendants not the one descendent, just like the first time they were in the Land. That land covenant was not to Yeshua alone. So while Yeshua is indeed of the seed of Abraham since He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, that doesn't mean that the collective seed of Abraham are not still in view. He will preside over it in the future, but the covenant is with the Hebrew people. And it was reaffirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

I agree, the Abrahamic covenant has yet to be fully realized.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Paul correctly sees the land inherited as "the whole world" when he says "the promise to Abraham and his descendants would be heir of the world..." Jerusalem will be the seat from which Christ rules the whole world.... not merely the tiny plot of land that is Israel.

Jesus said of Jerusalem;

[Mat 23:37-39 NASB] 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"​

And they were (are) desolate for the next 2000 years.

2000 years from Adam to Abraham
2000 years from Abraham to Christ
2000 years from Christ (and the desolation of Jerusalem) to now...

Bout time for something to happen, I think.

[Rom 11:11, 15 NASB] 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. ... 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will [their] acceptance be but life from the dead?​

 

[timothyu]

All the land from the river of Egypt to the the Euphrates River has never been possessed by the descendants of Abraham.

Abraham had two families which followed his God..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We Are Israel

The main problem we as a people have is identifying with Israel which is the name God gave his people. Here take a look at these scriptures:

Ephesians 2:11-14
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made BOTH one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

This states that we were strangers from Israel, but now we are not.

Galatians 3:16 KJV — Now to Abraham and his SEED were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 KJV — And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:7 KJV — Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

These clearly state we are of the seed of Abraham if we have faith. Therefore we are of Israel.

Hello BrotherD just popping in to say hi. Yep nice thread. Some more scriptures from the Old and New provided in an old thread here if your interested linked. Nice to see you.

God bless

 

[BrotherD]

Hello BrotherD just popping in to say hi. Yep nice thread. Some more scriptures from the Old and New provided in an old thread here if your interested linked. Nice to see you.

God bless

Hello brother, good to hear from you. I will take a look at the link. Hopefully all is well.

May the Lord bless ypu.