Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser

[JohnT]

Here is a hot potato, sent out to generate discussion, nothing more, OK?
I was surprised that no one mentioned it here, yet, so I did.

According to my research, Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser is a former SDA pastor.

The Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in Los Angeles during the 1930s, breaking away from the Seventh Day Adventist church

Both share doomsday beliefs.
Both had sexual exploitation of its members, sometimes children
Both leaders changed his name.
Both leaders are called "father" by the adherents

Is there something in the Jello salad that the SDAS eat to cause that?

All kidding aside, this is a serious subject, and I am wondering about the SDA connection in these doomsday groups. For sure these are not things that ANY person from a legitimate SDA church would say or do, but these guys went off the deep end. What is the common ground in this case?

What are the opinions from those inside or formerly inside?

 

[StormyOne]

don't you think that these groups share a paranoid persecutory mindset? Not to mention the whole multiple sex partner thing, that one has me baffled...

 

[RND]

Jim Jones and Marshall Applegate weren't Adventist's. Neither was Warren Jeffs. And the Catholic priests involved in the child abuse scandle certainly weren't eating the "Adventist Jell-o." Besides John, Adventists generally don't eat Jell-o since it has gelatin in it.

The fact remains that it doesn't matter what religious "bent" you come from or may have a false prophet is a false prophet. If more folks read their Bibles they'd be less likely to fall into these traps.

Here is a hot potato, sent out to generate discussion, nothing more, OK?
I was surprised that no one mentioned it here, yet, so I did.

According to my research, Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser is a former SDA pastor.

The Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in Los Angeles during the 1930s, breaking away from the Seventh Day Adventist church

Both share doomsday beliefs.
Both had sexual exploitation of its members, sometimes children
Both leaders changed his name.
Both leaders are called "father" by the adherents

Is there something in the Jello salad that the SDAS eat to cause that?

All kidding aside, this is a serious subject, and I am wondering about the SDA connection in these doomsday groups. For sure these are not things that ANY person from a legitimate SDA church would say or do, but these guys went off the deep end. What is the common ground in this case?

What are the opinions from those inside or formerly inside?

 

[JohnT]

When I wrote

Is there something in the Jello salad that the SDAS eat to cause that?

it was a facetious remark, knowing that some SDAs eat Jello, and some do not.

There was nothing evil intended or hinted at in the OP.

I never mentioned Jim Jones and Marshall Applegate or Warren Jeffs in the OP. I am merely wondering if there is some sort of mindset that might help me understand, OK?

 

[RND]

When I wrote
it was a facetious remark, knowing that some SDAs eat Jello, and some do not.

There was nothing evil intended or hinted at in the OP.

I never mentioned Jim Jones and Marshall Applegate or Warren Jeffs in the OP. I am merely wondering if there is some sort of mindset that might help me understand, OK?

Didn't take your remarks as being out of order or something to freak out over. Been to lots of "pot lucks" and have never seen Jell-o served once. Can't speak for all Adventist's mind you.

I'm aware you didn't mention those other guys, I was just trying to put things into perspective. It's not an Adventist "mindset" that leads to this wrong behavior. It's an evil mindset beset upon the unsuspecting by Satan himself.

 

[Pythons]

Here is a hot potato, sent out to generate discussion, nothing more, OK?
I was surprised that no one mentioned it here, yet, so I did.

There was a thread about it here a week or so ago.

According to my research, Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser is a former SDA pastor.

The Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in Los Angeles during the 1930s, breaking away from the Seventh Day Adventist church

Yes and yes.

Both share doomsday beliefs.
Both had sexual exploitation of its members, sometimes children
Both leaders changed his name.
Both leaders are called "father" by the adherents

Wayne Bent AKA Michael is Adventist in the same way a Christadelphian, Jehovah's Witnesses, Davidian or Armstrong WWCOG 7th day is Adventist. The "Adventist Group" who remained intact subsequent to the Great Disappointment soon fractured into several Adventist groups, Seventh-day Adventism being the one group who gained the most ground. Joseph Smith is considered the 'father of Adventism'.

All Adventist groups have doomsday eschatology that differs from the eschatology of non-Adventist systems in that the Adventist group is special because it does something different then the other "apostate religious systems".

Yisray Hawkins is also an Adventist who formed "The House of Yahweh" In Abilene Tx which has already made National News in that what he has done and intends to do would make Wayne Bent as well as the FLDS sect look like amatures.

These folks are all "Adventists" and given most people don't realize that Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and WWCOG7, etc are all Adventists it's easy to forget that the reason "Seventh-day" comes prior to "Adventist". It was simply a way to identify themselves from other Adventists.

Is there something in the Jello salad that the SDAS eat to cause that?

All kidding aside, this is a serious subject, and I am wondering about the SDA connection in these doomsday groups. For sure these are not things that ANY person from a legitimate SDA church would say or do, but these guys went off the deep end. What is the common ground in this case?

What are the opinions from those inside or formerly inside?

My guess is that the common ground is that in each case the founders believed the Biblical method of dealing with difference of doctrine was to split off and by golly form their own church, one that teaches the true Gospel of Jesus. It's been going on since the time of Acts 15 and it still is going strong.

Didn't take your remarks as being out of order or something to freak out over. Been to lots of "pot lucks" and have never seen Jell-o served once. Can't speak for all Adventist's mind you.

RND, you crack me up man. Don't scare me like you did again. You came up in confession!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Here is a hot potato, sent out to generate discussion, nothing more, OK?
I was surprised that no one mentioned it here, yet, so I did.

According to my research, Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser is a former SDA pastor.

The Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in Los Angeles during the 1930s, breaking away from the Seventh Day Adventist church

Both share doomsday beliefs.
Both had sexual exploitation of its members, sometimes children
Both leaders changed his name.
Both leaders are called "father" by the adherents

Is there something in the Jello salad that the SDAS eat to cause that?

All kidding aside, this is a serious subject, and I am wondering about the SDA connection in these doomsday groups. For sure these are not things that ANY person from a legitimate SDA church would say or do, but these guys went off the deep end. What is the common ground in this case?

What are the opinions from those inside or formerly inside?

Whenever this subject is raised, SDAs are quick to distance themselves from the splinter groups. And, frankly, this is justified since there are definitely differences between SDAism and its splinter groups. However, I wonder why SDAs are incapable of considering the similarities. I suggest that there are similarities, such as the following:

(1) SDAism and its splinter groups fear the persecution of others who would prevent them from practicing their beliefs;

(2) SDAism and its splinter groups place a high priority on character development as a means of maintaining salvation through the end of time;

(3) SDAism and its splinter groups believe that God has granted them a divinely appointed Spiritual leader who possesses unique prophetic gifts;

(4) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have the remnant message that all persons need to hear in order to fully understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and in order to either obtain or maintain salvation; -AND-

(5) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have a message that will purify religious movements that have gone before them.

Certainly, someone will point out that not all SDAs believe all of the 5 points listed above. And that is quite true--not all SDAs do believe these points. However, these points are taught within SDAism and by the SDA prophet and SDAism has never denounce any of these points as representing error or heresy. Therefore, these problems remain in SDAism.

I further suspect that there are other similarities between SDAism and its splinter groups that I have failed to mention. Feel free to add to my list.

God bless,
BFA

 

[Pythons]

BFA,

That pretty much sums it up. I know Catholicism has a fairly brutal end time view yet they don't target other groups leadership and equate it with the devil.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Any comments on these similarities? Any more to add?

BFA

Whenever this subject is raised, SDAs are quick to distance themselves from the splinter groups. And, frankly, this is justified since there are definitely differences between SDAism and its splinter groups. However, I wonder why SDAs are incapable of considering the similarities. I suggest that there are similarities, such as the following:

(1) SDAism and its splinter groups fear the persecution of others who would prevent them from practicing their beliefs;

(2) SDAism and its splinter groups place a high priority on character development as a means of maintaining salvation through the end of time;

(3) SDAism and its splinter groups believe that God has granted them a divinely appointed Spiritual leader who possesses unique prophetic gifts;

(4) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have the remnant message that all persons need to hear in order to fully understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and in order to either obtain or maintain salvation; -AND-

(5) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have a message that will purify religious movements that have gone before them.

Certainly, someone will point out that not all SDAs believe all of the 5 points listed above. And that is quite true--not all SDAs do believe these points. However, these points are taught within SDAism and by the SDA prophet and SDAism has never denounce any of these points as representing error or heresy. Therefore, these problems remain in SDAism.

I further suspect that there are other similarities between SDAism and its splinter groups that I have failed to mention. Feel free to add to my list.

God bless,
BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So the question really comes down to is what do crazy people have in common? What do they have in common with normal people? What do they have in common with other people in their nation? What do they have in common with various religions or philosophies they may have encountered. And finally what can our rampant dislike for anyone or group provide if we simply let our imaginations run wild?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

So the question really comes down to is what do crazy people have in common? What do they have in common with normal people? What do they have in common with other people in their nation? What do they have in common with various religions or philosophies they may have encountered. And finally what can our rampant dislike for anyone or group provide if we simply let our imaginations run wild?

It understands and sympathizes with this rant to some degree. Yes, extreme examples often get thrown around as a means of discrediting more reasonable folk who differ or "deviate" from the mainstream or "normative". This happens in politics, in religion, even just in personal little social circles of friends & acquaintances, co-workers, et.c.

Most humans seem to need some sort of distancing device, something to point to and say, "well no matter what you might think of me for X or Y, at least I'm not like THAT OVER THERE!!!!!!!!111" The classic label for this device, of course, would be "scapegoat". That "always something worse than yourself" people all feel they can point to as the ultimate distancing -- look, look, see? We may believe God roasts people alive for eternity (or obliterates them for just as long just as irrevocably) for not thinking the way WE do and feeling the way WE feel and seeing the way WE see ... but at least we bes not Hitler or Bin Laden, at least we bes not the ones trying to chase them down with rack and stake and pitchforks and torches!! So see folks? WE BES OK!!!

The SDAs have an interesting concept about the OT Jewish feasts playing out in some "antitypical" fashion, especially the Day of Atonement being like a foreshadowing of the completed atonement work Christ did on the Cross, bes still doing in Heaven throughout the centuries, does today, and particular parts He will be doing in the "end times" specifically. One of the interesting things about this notion bes that in the Day of Atonement ceremony, the LAST thing to take place bes ....

..... RELEASING THE SCAPEGOAT.

Truly it would be a wonderful thing to behold if humanity collectively and individually released theirs, eh?

 

[ricker]

Whenever this subject is raised, SDAs are quick to distance themselves from the splinter groups. And, frankly, this is justified since there are definitely differences between SDAism and its splinter groups. However, I wonder why SDAs are incapable of considering the similarities. I suggest that there are similarities, such as the following:

(1) SDAism and its splinter groups fear the persecution of others who would prevent them from practicing their beliefs;

(2) SDAism and its splinter groups place a high priority on character development as a means of maintaining salvation through the end of time;

(3) SDAism and its splinter groups believe that God has granted them a divinely appointed Spiritual leader who possesses unique prophetic gifts;

(4) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have the remnant message that all persons need to hear in order to fully understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and in order to either obtain or maintain salvation; -AND-

(5) SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have a message that will purify religious movements that have gone before them.

Certainly, someone will point out that not all SDAs believe all of the 5 points listed above. And that is quite true--not all SDAs do believe these points. However, these points are taught within SDAism and by the SDA prophet and SDAism has never denounce any of these points as representing error or heresy. Therefore, these problems remain in SDAism.

I further suspect that there are other similarities between SDAism and its splinter groups that I have failed to mention. Feel free to add to my list.

God bless,
BFA

In my experience these characteristics you have listed here makes the SDA church somewhat more likely to attract certain perhaps unstable people to itself. Also, the remnant/"only we have it right" attitude seems to encourage some to be quite arrogant and self righteous.

This being said I visited my local Adventist church again this last sabbath and was again struck by the friendly, accepting attitude there. I have attended perhaps 5 SDA services in the last year and all the messages preached were ones I had no particular theological problems with, and most I actually got a blessing from. Maybe we formers are sometimes too harsh in our criticism of the Adventist faith. I would probably join again if the official fundamental beliefs lined up closer to the attitude I find with the more moderate SDA's I run into.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This being said I visited my local Adventist church again this last sabbath and was again struck by the friendly, accepting attitude there.

I don't doubt that for one minute. If my only criteria in looking for a home church is a church in which the atmosphere is friendly, then SDAism would be a great fit. However, I am concerned about the error that is inconsistently taught within SDAism. Any error that disrupts the gospel of Jesus Christ and casts the emphasis onto human works is error that concerns me.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So the question really comes down to is what do crazy people have in common? What do they have in common with normal people? What do they have in common with other people in their nation? What do they have in common with various religions or philosophies they may have encountered.

Have I incorrectly represented SDAism? If so, how? Should the questions in your post be off limits? If so, why?

And finally what can our rampant dislike for anyone or group provide if we simply let our imaginations run wild?

Which group do you rampantly dislike? I could not say that I hold any group in such high disregard. Rather, I've simply asked why it is only appropriate to discuss the differences and never the similarities, and I've already acknowledged that "there are definitely differences between SDAism and its splinter groups."

BFA

 

[ricker]

I don't doubt that for one minute. If my only criteria in looking for a home church is a church in which the atmosphere is friendly, then SDAism would be a great fit. However, I am concerned about the error that is inconsistently taught within SDAism. Any error that disrupts the gospel of Jesus Christ and casts the emphasis onto human works is error that concerns me.

BFA

You are, of course, right. I remember a lot of what I would consider heretical theology and outright legalism being taught in my days in academy and college. I just haven't heard it from the pulpit the last few times I have fellowshipped with them. I went many, many years without stepping in an Adventist church before recently. Not to compare SDA's with them, but I imagine Hari Krishnas were/are welcoming too.......

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I don't doubt that for one minute. If my only criteria in looking for a home church is a church in which the atmosphere is friendly, then SDAism would be a great fit. However, I am concerned about the error that is inconsistently taught within SDAism. Any error that disrupts the gospel of Jesus Christ and casts the emphasis onto human works is error that concerns me.

With all due respect (and awareness that every local congregation can be very different even within the same denomination), Moriah's experience through several years of going in and out of SDA-ism has been that this friendly up front appearance bes just that: the up front appearance. It has no real depth nor staying power -- nor does it last once they find out in a profound sense you bes not "one of them" -- and yes, Moriah here bes speaking of those that DO embrace exactly the same beliefs... doesn't matter. The SDAs as a group by and large tend to be VERY conformist and cliquish and if you don't fit the mold, you won't get anywhere making lasting ties.

Interestingly enough, the Valugenesis studies showed that among the primary reasons for people initially leaving the SDA church, the lack of forming close, strong friendships ranked the highest. Studying the doctrinal business and coming to vastly different conclusions from the official SDA positions came secondary for those that had converted in their teen or adult lifetime to SDA from a different denomination or upbringing. Primary reason bes because of the utter lack of viable support structure socially and emotionally.

And still they don't learn.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Have I incorrectly represented SDAism? If so, how? Should the questions in your post be off limits? If so, why?



Which group do you rampantly dislike? I could not say that I hold any group in such high disregard. Rather, I've simply asked why it is only appropriate to discuss the differences and never the similarities, and I've already acknowledged that "there are definitely differences between SDAism and its splinter groups."

BFA

Have you incorrectly represented SDAism by your generalizations? Of course that it is why generalizations are often fallacious. Do your statements resemble other Christian groups...certainly. SDA's are not the only people who think they are the remnant. You find that in practically every denomination. You can read about several examples here:
To be the Remnant or to be part of the Remnant?


Do most organizations have leaders that they hold in special respect. Again that is true of many denominations. Then again most all Christians from Biblical times on have sought character development. It is easy to understand how someone who does not think anyone has free will will think that character development is designed to get salvation but that is a problem with your presuppositions.

Again most denominations think they have special message to deliver. Why else would someone like you be here?

So the problem with you list is that it does not apply itself equally, it is a rant against one segment of religion. Which is something anyone can do to any religious tradition or denomination.

Tell us what your denomination is and I can show you how easy it is to do what you did with your list.

 

[ricker]

Have you incorrectly represented SDAism by your generalizations? Of course that it is why generalizations are often fallacious. Do your statements resemble other Christian groups...certainly. SDA's are not the only people who think they are the remnant. You find that in practically every denomination. You can read about several examples here:
To be the Remnant or to be part of the Remnant?


Do most organizations have leaders that they hold in special respect. Again that is true of many denominations. Then again most all Christians from Biblical times on have sought character development. It is easy to understand how someone who does not think anyone has free will will think that character development is designed to get salvation but that is a problem with your presuppositions.

Again most denominations think they have special message to deliver. Why else would someone like you be here?

So the problem with you list is that it does not apply itself equally, it is a rant against one segment of religion. Which is something anyone can do to any religious tradition or denomination.

Tell us what your denomination is and I can show you how easy it is to do what you did with your list.

Try me, try me. I'm a Lutheran. I don't see any of the 5 applying to us, except along with most protestants, we believe in the past we had a reformation movement..

 

[Pythons]

Traditional Seventh-day Adventists subscribe to Historicism which places all the eggs of the Church in the baskets of Daniel and Revelation along with an eschatology that requires the Catholic Church is the Dragon mentioned in Revelation along with Satan the archangel.

Adventist groups since their inception have predicted dates for Christs Second Coming and the number of predictions are certainly disproportionate to their percentage of the Christian Body. William Miller sold "Ascension Robes" / Charles Taz Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses sold "Miracle Wheat", etc, etc, etc.

In each case, members would be feverishly pumped to the point they would verbally attack anyone questioning the leaders math or special understanding on the time line. In my humble view this is certainly a link in establishing the "why". To maintain belief, all a group needs to do is pull one of these stunts off every few generations.

In the New Mexico group Wayne Bent AKA Michael claims he was given a special honor or exalted by God exactly like Michael the archangel was exalted and became Son of God to his flock. I'm not sure if anyone watched the interviews of these people on Larry King Live / Fox News or the NatGeo special on this very group, the main theme that attracted them to Wayne Bent was:

The ability to live without sin (the Holy Spirit keeps the repentant sinner from sinning)

Living the "Health Message" and following the educational methods of the early Pioneers. I forgot the names of these people but you can read about them on their website.

I think all Christians believe in the Second Coming of Christ and that was one thing I thought odd about the interview Bill O w/ Fox News did with one of the girls. When asked why she would join a group like this she said,

"She was Adventist and believed in the Second Coming of Christ."

I believe in the Second Coming of Christ andI'm certain the Baptists and Lutherans do! It's obviously the IMMINENT return of Christ and feeling the need to live without sin for salvation is that what draws these people to the slaughter.

If someone came up to me and said that they were bestowed a special honor from the Father and exaulted to the position of Son of God exactly like Jesus in the Bible was I WOULD RUN THE OTHER DIRECTION! What caused these people to gawk in wide wonder and accept this teaching?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It's obviously the IMMINENT return of Christ and feeling the need to live without sin for salvation is that what draws these people to the slaughter.

Feeling that "need" in bold above constitutes failure to trust in Christ and in HIS power and mercy. SDAs believe at the end of time they will have to stand before God in this mortal, frail, failing, sinful flesh without a mediator (they believe Christ will leave the "heavenly sanctuary" just before His return) and if they have not perfected themselves by then it will be too late for them and they will be fodder for the lake of fire which, in SDA theology, obliterates one -- after some period of excruciating torture -- for all eternity with no hope of a resurrection.

What a harrowing, terrifying, fear-inducing and awful thing to try to believe, especially having to constantly veil and shroud and steel oneself against bold, raw, frank scriptures stating all our righteousness bes as filthy rags, that there bes none which bes good or understands or seeks God, etc. But they devise this terrifying scenario because they simply do not trust Christ to save them. They genuinely believe they have to "merit" or "earn" it somehow by perfecting their characters before this terrible dark time when presumably they will have no mediator between a righteous-but-wrathful Father God and their frail humanity.

How tragic. Moriah bes so grateful it has Hebrews 7:25 to cling to!!
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.