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DJ_Ghost said:Only borrowed, they meant to given them back...
Ghost
AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:I'm lost... 280+ posts later and I've forgotten what the O.P. was
dad said:I have thought that when the new heavens are revealed, that the physical only universe will cease to exist, as it will be a complete spiritual/physical universe then. Of course the laws of physics, and gravity will not apply as they now do. I also suspect the bible indicates such a state existed before in our early history, but the two had to be seperated, probably as a result of the fall.
I have speculated that this split was fast, maybe instant, probably at the time of the fall of man. That is still what I think.
However, thinking about a water canopy of some kind, enough to really cause a flood, has led to a new possibility! I think it is pretty well known, and accepted, really, that such a canopy would be impossible, due to the great heat, and other things the laws of physics simply prohibit.
How about this, then. The split was not instant, but perhaps never really was completed till during the flood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This makes it entirely possible, as the merged laws were different. Presto- all arguements hitherto used against a canopy no longer valid!!! I like that. With science, then being neutered, this leaves only objections of a biblical nature to be a possible theory killer here.(?) But that's not going to happen, I am almost positive! So, evos, check, and MATE!!
Nathan Poe said:Wild speculations underlined...
Of course, all of this hinges on the premise that dad's wild speculations are all 100% accurate.
For those of you who had forgotten the OP, or are now seeing it for the first time... I am truly sorry.
dad said:I have thought that when the new heavens are revealed, that the physical only universe will cease to exist, as it will be a complete spiritual/physical universe then. Of course the laws of physics, and gravity will not apply as they now do. I also suspect the bible indicates such a state existed before in our early history, but the two had to be seperated, probably as a result of the fall.
I have speculated that this split was fast, maybe instant, probably at the time of the fall of man. That is still what I think.
grmorton said:...it becomes quite clear that this is similar to C.S. Lewis' trilemma--Jesus is either liar, lunatic or God.....
Jet Black said:only quite, I doubt anyone shouted "oi Jesus, stop trolling the middle east"
Creation week isn't my say so, but custard universes, granny, and the creator speck are yours, apparently.Seems like everything is mythology to some people except Granny, and the Speck-in your case, a custard universe as well.]
Not so, dad. It just requires something a little more substantial than your say-so to make something real.
Since God is a spirit, he does not have legs for walking, unless what you're saying that the nature of God has changed also and not just the physical world, because that would be unbiblical wouldn't it. It's better to learn how to read the bible before you post drivel.
That is your idea not mine. I said the physical universe was here since the split, and till the merge. You can't argue custard into physical known science, or to the bible, you simply like to try to make solid reason sound silly that can stsnd up to these things!Seeing as how the spiritual can alter the physical at whim (and not just your own whim), then there's no reason not to believe the custard canopy.
In other words He did what was needed to save all mankind, despite so many having been given over to evil.Sometimes the evil is in not giving the things that are needed to actually save us, not in measures needed to be taken (because of our own sins) to save us, despite ourselves.
What?
Known by the facts of the bible, and science. We know it reaches us, therefore it could not always have been the physical universe only variety. We know light reaches us, just as it did Adam. It could reach neither if it took billions of years to get here, according to the bible timetable of several thousand years....what you mean an explanation that can stand up to "physical box only" science? 'Light was known to reach us faster'? Known by who?
.Numenor said:lol! Brag all you like dad, you've demonstrated quite amply that your 'gradual split' has no support in the Bible. [On the contrary, I've indicated some support, the which, you can say nothing about]The fact that the Bible doesn't mention your lunatic theory is not any kind of support for it, nor is Pegel's mysterious 'dividing of the earth'.
[Peleg, I presume you mean. Well then, since some bible commentators call it a mystery what this really means, can you tell us now what it must, and must not mean?]
No worries.For once, I'm on dad's side here. If there is a heaven, there had better be some sex going on
.Stan the Man said:Um, you what dad? I don't know exactly what translation of the bible you've got hold of but it seems to be missing whole pages here... [That's easy to say]
You've already said we will be made like the angels -[ They are spirits, and we too will be spiritual, they can fly, disappear, etc., and so will we be able to. They had babies with women, I believe we will be able to as well. They can talk, so will we be able to, or use thoughts, whichever we prefer. I'd say we have a lot in common with them] this is just plain wrong, the bible says we will be made like CHRIST. [Christ is getting married, if you remember] Big difference. In fact it says that we will be placed higher than the the angels, and rule over them.
It has already been pointed out that Jesus said that marriages will not occur in heaven - the only concept of marriage described as existing in heaven is the marriage of Christ to the Church - [So what? That's one described! I don't expect we will have the same exact relationships there as here, like He said. Things will be so sinless and wonderful, unselfish, diseaseless, and free, we won't need some exclusive arrangement, in the same way man now does!] I'm not entirely sure why you think that making love -something which God has created as a sacred act within the boundaries of marriage - will happen in heaven where marriage will not occur - chapter and verse for this [I just gave some support. Now add to this scores of references about after Jesus returns (either millenium, or heaven, many are not clear exactly when) -children are here. 'taught of the Lord' -'a little child shall lead them' etc etc etc etc. Do you think a heavenly stork will drop them?]?
If animals had souls according to scripture then how would that fit within the concept of sin offerings and burnt offerings in the Old Testament [How wouldn't it?]
I have to say that if you are not on target on these biblical issues, how can tertiary issues like the canopy be argued convincingly? [Easy! If the physical was not all there was or will be, it is wonderfully, and entirely possible!]
.grmorton said:Oh golly, I was struck with Dad's delusions of grandeur in which he imagines himself a Biblical writer. Consider the OP
[Anytime you feel you have a sharper sword, do give it a go]
[/i]
None of the above is actually IN the Bible. [ But this is where you fall short. I have shown how there will be a spiritual, and physical world coming, and it cannot begin to be boxed in with physical only, soon to be extinct, rules! So, where can you show me the sun will not last forever? Or believers will not? etc. You can't. All you can try to do is devine up some dream granny, and such from box prognostications. Only if the physical only is all there was, and will be would your ideas even pretend to make small sense!!! How fast would life proliferate in a pre split stste? Beyond your wildest physical only dreams! How could varves be made? Faster than your P only dreams as well. Etc Etc. ] Dad gets to write his Bible as he goes along. This makes him either 1) a biblical writer, 2) God himself or 3) crazy or 4) a troll. [Or right]
Now, if you categorize those possiblities, it becomes quite clear that this is similar to C.S. Lewis' trilemma--Jesus is either liar, lunatic or God. Maybe we could substitute dad into the trilemma where 'Jesus' appears. Dad clearly couldn't be either of the first two therefore, he must be God and thus he has a right to re-write the Bible. QED.
Hey dad, now I know why you use the moniker, 'dad'. You ARE DAD! [Nice presumption. Seems assumptions are your specialty, silly ones, especially]
They used to think the dead sea scrolls were older as well, yet as I recall, they found at least one bit of the OT that is older! The written version may or may not be older than the chuckles of gigglimesh, but we can be sure He had the original. The Gigies may have heard some tidbits from some good men of God passing through, but claiming pagan credit for God's word is absurd, and straining desperately.Nathan Poe said:And Yet the Epic of Gilgamesh, particularly its own flood story, predates the OT by roughly 1,000 years.
If non-Hebrews were so unimportant, why then did the OT writers steal their myths?
Elduran said:Wow, 10 messages in a row that I couldn't see.... Blissful silence
Can someone who hasn't put dad on their ignore list let me know if he actually says anything which makes sense in future, as I'm just assuming it's all pointless from here on out
dad said:They used to think the dead sea scrolls were older as well, yet as I recall, they found at least one bit of the OT that is older! The written version may or may not be older than the chuckles of gigglimesh, but we can be sure He had the original. The Gigies may have heard some tidbits from some good men of God passing through, but claiming pagan credit for God's word is absurd, and straining desperately.
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