Water baptism

[Frogster]

Actually frog, Hebrews does mention baptism by water...

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

That is why the book is not about eartly priests, or earthly temples, no continuing city here, Jesus passed through the heavens etc, it is showing the spiritual over the natural.

 

[bob96]

Really? Then why would an evangelist, say he was not sent to baptize?

For the most efficient use of his time, he evangelised, and not baptised. The other disciples could easily do the baptising.

 

[Frogster]

Again, elemental teachings don't require further explanation. They were detailed in chapter 2. It says they were obedient, so therefore they were baptised as it was commanded.

you don't know if the priests of 6;7, were the ones addressed in Hebrews. We don't even knowe if priests were the recipients of the letter. Again, it is about faith in 6:7, no mention of water, that is a factoid of the week there Bob.

 

[Frogster]

I've already shown that the early church fathers knew of no such thing as a "water free conversion". Historically speaking, who do you think would have the highest change of getting it right - the earliest church fathers, or Luther, who came along 1500 years later?

Leave Luther alone, i have shown text where they were saved..then baptized.

 

[bob96]

Are you saying to be in the body, one has to be baptized, or he can't be in the church? Are unbaptized the outcasts?
:o

I wouldn't call them outcasts. They can go to church, pray, tithe, etc, but until they have "put on" Christ in baptism, they are not "in Him".

They are not saved, because they have not been baptised "FOR" the forgiveness of sins.

Maybe it will help if I make it green?

 

[Frogster]

No, it's not strange. The book is written to saved believers that have already been baptised for the forgiveness of their sins. Being a straight-forward elemental teaching with no hidden meaning, it doesn't need to be covered again.

Here's a question for you: do you think the early church fathers got it wrong when they said:

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

Unfortunately, you yourself belong to "this class of men" of which they speak.

naaaa....it was so elemental compared to the blood that brings remission..

it says baptisms in the plural in that verse, what baptisms were in mind?

6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

 

[Frogster]

I wouldn't call them outcasts. They can go to church, pray, tithe, etc, but until they have "put on" Christ in baptism, they are not "in Him".

They are not saved, because they have not been baptised "FOR" the forgiveness of sins.

Maybe it will help if I make it green?

There ya go again, against the rules, you just mandated it again.

 

[Frogster]

Because he has not had his sins forgiven. Baptism is
FOR
the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38

(I think I just blew out an eardrum)

same thing, you are mandating works salvation against the SOP.

 

[bob96]

Bob - I got it you are all worked up, but you might want to read with some discernment. I am actually on your side in this discussion. Read my post that you chopped most of it out on. My quote you posted in context was saying that Peter had those 3,000 baptized without any understanding of what baptism really was. He just told them, repent and be baptized. They learned about it and the other commands of Christ after the fact.

I know you're not against me! I appreciate all the support you've given.

However, in Acts 2:40, it says Peter said "With many other words he warned them". He preached the gospel to them, and they were baptised afterwards. I don't think 3000 people would get baptised if they didn't know the purpose behind it.

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

 

[Edial]

interesting, and yes, not too many, but glad there is yours.

I was wondering, without giving the name for privacy concerns, is there a Charismatic type of word in your church name?

No charismatic words - Trinity Lutheran Church.

In my town there is a Holy Ghost Lutheran church, so you got me wondering if maybe they are charismatic too?

Might very well be.
It is a fascinating combination of charismatic flavor and liturgical service.
Every song, almost every song, is a charismatic type. People clap and raise hands. (The most I do is tap the back of the front pew).
Pastor wears a robe.
And Communion IS important.

One thing you should watch out for - ELCA synod. They accept this same sex nonsense and the Bible "contains" the word of God and is not the word of God in its entirety.
Most of Lutheran churches are ELCA synod. Shame.
I left ELCA because of that.

Aslo, do you catch hastle from non Charismatic Lutherans?

Yes. Some Conservative Lutherans are looking at me like I got 2 heads.
What the conservative Lutherans feel very "funny" about is tongues.
This whole topic of tongues needs to be revisited anyway.

I am just curious, no need to reply if you don't want to, thanks! frog.

Oh, please.
I have no secrets (that I know of ) and very comfortable being there.
Besides, they all love me and women feed me bagels and coffee ... and you should see our coffee hour.

 

[bob96]

No, we are seated in the heavnelies, that is spiritual, it does not take water, it says by the glory of the father in 6, He does not need a lake, pond, river, or a baptismal, not even the long island sound.

You are fusing the natural, to the supernatural.

Are win In HIM spiritually, or naturally?

God is Spirit, so I presume spiritually. What is important is not how it happens, just that it has happened.

 

[bob96]

ahhhhh..but the new cov was inaugurated at the sprinkling..just like the old.


Heb 9:. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,


Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.





soooo without going down that road, countless people know what it means, no baptism needed to be in Christ.

I agree completely with Heb 12:24. The new covenant began with the "better" sprinkled blood. After Jesus died and his blood was spilled, the new covenant began. That was when the curtain in the temple was torn in two, marking the end of the old covenant.

 

[bob96]

oh please... I see you may not have had experiences with people in casts, tubes, electric monitoring devices, pumps, cathaters, oxygen tanks, none of which are water suitable.

Like I said, if your life depends on it, you will find a way.

 

[bob96]

Leave Luther alone, i have shown text where they were saved..then baptized.

No, you've only shown your interpretation of the text.

 

[bob96]

same thing, you are mandating works salvation against the SOP.

Why does me quoting scripture directly upset you?

Acts 2:38 - be baptised "for" the forgiveness of sins.

The only explanation is that the literal translation doesn't fit your doctrine, so you must use eisegesis in order for your doctrine to make sense?

 

[bob96]

Frogster, can you please answer why these faith filled believers were not saved?

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The fact they had faith is obvious. They called Jesus their Lord. They were filled with the external dwelling of the Holy Spirit (received through the laying on of hands) and performed many miracles, the same as the many members of the Corinthian church whom Paul had to rebuke. In fact, they are actually confused as to why they are not saved - "Didn't we do all this in your name??"

 

[Alithis]

Frogster, can you please answer why these faith filled believers were not saved?

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The fact they had faith is obvious. They called Jesus their Lord. They were filled with the external dwelling of the Holy Spirit and performed many miracles, the same as the many members of the Corinthian church whom Paul had to rebuke.

im not frogster but im in for a penny lol

..disobedience is the answer .. willful unrepentant disobedience ..they did many good things but it is only to justify not doing the one thing the lord was asking of them by his spirit..
they did all the other things to compensate for their disobedience .(and the one thing the lord asks of us in personal life is different depending on whom the lord is asking and for what reason .)


had they put their faith in the lord Jesus smote their chest in sincere repentance asking forgiveness and called upon the lord Jesus to save them.. and then got hit by a runaway OX cart 3 minutes later ..they would certainly be saved .. ("who so ever calleth upon the name of the lord shall be saved "pp)
-had they survived the Ox cart and learned of the need to be water baptized and ..then refused to do so as an act of willful disobedience ..but instead gone and done a lot of good works to compensate for their disobedience ..then they will have the end the lord speaks of ... they will be cast out -just as the lord says .

 

[Frogster]

No charismatic words - Trinity Lutheran Church.


Might very well be.
It is a fascinating combination of charismatic flavor and liturgical service.
Every song, almost every song, is a charismatic type. People clap and raise hands. (The most I do is tap the back of the front pew).
Pastor wears a robe.
And Communion IS important.

One thing you should watch out for - ELCA synod. They accept this same sex nonsense and the Bible "contains" the word of God and is not the word of God in its entirety.
Most of Lutheran churches are ELCA synod. Shame.
I left ELCA because of that.


Yes. Some Conservative Lutherans are looking at me like I got 2 heads.
What the conservative Lutherans feel very "funny" about is tongues.
This whole topic of tongues needs to be revisited anyway.


Oh, please.
I have no secrets (that I know of ) and very comfortable being there.
Besides, they all love me and women feed me bagels and coffee ... and you should see our coffee hour.

Thanks for sharing part of your life it, it was interesting to read. Yeah, tongues are always a hot issue even over healings. I actually never knew there were charismatic Lutherans, as far as congregations, i know in most mainline denoms there are chatismatics, some maybe in the closet, but they are there.

Thanks for the warnings>>>ELCA synod:o

It sounds as though your church is very well grounded and balanced, so tap away on that pew bro!

Thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

God is Spirit, so I presume spiritually. What is important is not how it happens, just that it has happened.

well...all I can say is it is all spiritual stuff in said chapters, but somehow the baptism gets chucked in there, in all of it's naturalness.

Is naturalnes a word?

 

[Frogster]

I know you're not against me! I appreciate all the support you've given.

However, in Acts 2:40, it says Peter said "With many other words he warned them". He preached the gospel to them, and they were baptised afterwards. I don't think 3000 people would get baptised if they didn't know the purpose behind it.

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

well, maybe they were thinking John's baptism. Actually after the power hit, the water emersion by comparison must not have been so spectacular as the power of the Spirit was.

Oh my, as I typed that I just felt how true that is...