Water baptism

Frogster said:

Others agree that Paul did minimize it.

He preached Christ crucified, he said so right in 1 Cor.

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Who asserts that Paul is minimizing the importance of Christian baptism in I Cor 1 must, of necessity be also asserting that Paul is minimizing the importance of Christian unity - for Christian unity is the context of I Cor 1 - as is patently clear from the passage. Moreover, Paul points to baptism as the very basis for Christian unity - as is also patently clear from the passage.

It should also be noted that implicit in Paul's appeal to unity is the fact that the Christians in the Corinthian church were all physically baptized.

Implicit as well is the fact that the mode of their baptism wasn't some ethereal, mystical experience, but was something they all received at the hands of someone else, Paul being one of those people.

And of course Paul preached Christ crucified - no one denies that; I certainly didn't deny it, nor could it be remotely construed that I did. It's the core of the gospel message. Indeed Paul, as part of his appeal to Christian unity proclaims Christ's crucifixion - at the same time linking baptism to Christ's crucifixion:

"Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (I Cor 1:13)

So no, only an out-of-context misreading of the text can lead anyone to the assertion that Paul was minimizing baptism - as you have attempted here.

Frogster said:

Are people right now in or having the Rom 6 experience without being water baptized? yes or no please?

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No, they are not.

Romans 6 is not about some mystical, magical, other-worldly experience.

Romans 6 is about Christian baptism, physical Christian baptism - the physical submitting of one's person to baptism - as Peter says "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ..."

Frogster said:

Are people right now in or having the Rom 6 experience without being water baptized? yes or no please?

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They are, but not in Romans 6.

EdwinWillers said:

No, they are not.

Romans 6 is not about some mystical, magical, other-worldly experience.

Romans 6 is about Christian baptism, physical Christian baptism - the physical submitting of one's person to baptism - as Peter says "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ..."

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no, it is describing what happens at conversion, being born again, just like Col 2.

Old man crucified with Christ, our old man dying 6:6, being raised with Christ, then walking in newness of life in the newman so you are incorrect.

If one dies, one was dead, how can you not thnk 6 is not a description of what happend to us at conversion?



6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Frogster said:

no, it is describing what happens at conversion, being born again, just like Col 2.

Old man crucified with Christ, our old man dying 6:6, being raised with Christ, then walking in newness of life in the newman so you are incorrect.

If one dies, one was dead, how can you not thnk 6 is not a description of what happend to us at conversion?



6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

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Doesn't work, right?
If you are saying water baptism is purely symbolic we need to "fix" Chapter 6.

When oh when people would accept that Lutherans have it all?
I think every Christian is a Lutheran in heart - they just resist it.

Guess what hymn they would be singing in Heaven ... and in German ...

ByTheSpirit said:

I've already answered this, you are too stubborn to read/listen

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bro, will ya just admit this one simple truth??

If water is it in six, then in order for one to meet the salvation expericne, the criteria taught in 6, the plan, the rules, or whatever, then one MUST be water bapitized for it to work.

So you have now made water baptism a must for salvation, as 6 is describing what happened at salvation.

You can't omit it, or things won't work according to the layout of six, so you have either water baptism as a must for salvation, according to 6, saved by works, according to your interp. Unless we can just take out the baptism word from 6.

There ya go, no Mcdonalds for yuo!

EdwinWillers said:

Who asserts that Paul is minimizing the importance of Christian baptism in I Cor 1 must, of necessity be also asserting that Paul is minimizing the importance of Christian unity - for Christian unity is the context of I Cor 1 - as is patently clear from the passage. Moreover, Paul points to baptism as the very basis for Christian unity - as is also patently clear from the passage.

It should also be noted that implicit in Paul's appeal to unity is the fact that the Christians in the Corinthian church were all physically baptized.

Implicit as well is the fact that the mode of their baptism wasn't some ethereal, mystical experience, but was something they all received at the hands of someone else, Paul being one of those people.

And of course Paul preached Christ crucified - no one denies that; I certainly didn't deny it, nor could it be remotely construed that I did. It's the core of the gospel message. Indeed Paul, as part of his appeal to Christian unity proclaims Christ's crucifixion - at the same time linking baptism to Christ's crucifixion:

"Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (I Cor 1:13)

So no, only an out-of-context misreading of the text can lead anyone to the assertion that Paul was minimizing baptism - as you have attempted here.

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no, no, you're right, yes, there is tons of stuff on baptism, from Paul the baptist!

Yup, countless words from him on that..yup....

ByTheSpirit said:

yes the disciples were baptized

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I have not seen where, i would be curious if you could show me, and not John's baptism, if you are correct, no big deal, my argument still stands, thansk, frog.

So, do people in anti Chritstian areas have to publickly baptize, to then maybe get beheaded?

Edial said:

They are, but not in Romans 6.

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I agree, then according to our bro, they can't have met the teaching without water.

But 6 is explaining what happened to us. Dead, then alive, united, in union with Christ, outta Adam, into the Lord.

Edial said:

Doesn't work, right?
If you are saying water baptism is purely symbolic we need to "fix" Chapter 6.

When oh when people would accept that Lutherans have it all?
I think every Christian is a Lutheran in heart - they just resist it.

Guess what hymn they would be singing in Heaven ... and in German ...

Click to expand...

I live near alot of Germans in Texas, in fact, in my town, there is sort of an old Catholic vs Lutheran argument for years.


But the point is, if it is water in 6, then to meet the rules of six, one must be water baptized, whereby one turns that into a mandate for salvation.


I say Paul is talking union with Christ, 5 talks about how we were in Adam, 6 is about how we are now united with the new headship, and water is not needed..

EdwinWillers said:

No, they are not.

Romans 6 is not about some mystical, magical, other-worldly experience.

Romans 6 is about Christian baptism, physical Christian baptism - the physical submitting of one's person to baptism - as Peter says "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ..."

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it is mystical, and other worldly, we are born from above...see?

Edial said:

They are, but not in Romans 6.

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we were dead before our union, our baptism into Christ, that all is fine, makes sense..

But before this baptism we were dead, fine, that all makes sense.

So if it is water, the dead people would have to be unsaved, whereby unsaved people are getting water baptized?

That can't be, water follows conversion, not the other way around.

If we were raised up alive right after baptism, that means we were dead before that baptism, which would work if Paul is talking spiritual union, as he says "united" with Christ. But...if it were water, that means that unsaved people were being baptized before believing...can't be..dead people would not get water baptized. Water does not fit in 6.

Frogster said:

bro, will ya just admit this one simple truth??

If water is it in six, then in order for one to meet the salvation expericne, the criteria taught in 6, the plan, the rules, or whatever, then one MUST be water bapitized for it to work.

So you have now made water baptism a must for salvation, as 6 is describing what happened at salvation.

You can't omit it, or things won't work according to the layout of six, so you have either water baptism as a must for salvation, according to 6, saved by works, according to your interp. Unless we can just take out the baptism word from 6.

There ya go, no Mcdonalds for yuo!

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That is why Lutherans got it made and are closest to the Bible ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4TeJJmQJqU

Edial said:

Doesn't work, right?
If you are saying water baptism is purely symbolic we need to "fix" Chapter 6.

When oh when people would accept that Lutherans have it all?
I think every Christian is a Lutheran in heart - they just resist it.

Guess what hymn they would be singing in Heaven ... and in German ...

Click to expand...

Also, if 6 is water, then that means that we can only be spirtually raised, by the father, if there is a body of water nearby. Everyone would have to be born again, at water baptism....

But, if it is union, then 6 works, not being depenendent on water nearby.



6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Edial said:

That is why Lutherans got it made and are closest to the Bible ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4TeJJmQJqU

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dinner time, I will isten later..

Frogster said:

I live near alot of Germans in Texas, in fact, in my town, there is sort of an old Catholic vs Lutheran argument for years.


But the point is, if it is water in 6, then to meet the rules of six, one must be water baptized, whereby one turns that into a mandate for salvation.


I say Paul is talking union with Christ, 5 talks about how we were in Adam, 6 is about how we are now united with the new headship, and water is not needed..

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No, one could be water baptized or not.
That is why Lutherans say Baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary.
One could freely be saved without water baptism.

Please everyone form a line to be converted to Lutheranism. Take a number. ... FIVE!

Shameless promotion of Lutheranism as a best way of interpreting the Bible with Baptism and all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4TeJJmQJqU

Frogster said:

Let m explain.

Romans 6 is a detailed experience about all that happened at out conversion, by faith. If one makes water baptism essential, as part of the equation of salvation, the born again experience in 6, then he has mandated water babtism, to be saved, for the rom 6 experience to work. In other words, no water, no being saved, because he has made water an essential element in the equation, that is supposed to be all by faith.

If one listens to may view, and sees that it is about being united, in him, then one does not need water, it is all about the spiritual experience, it is all by faith, not by adding a work, as part of our salvation event, detailed in the Rom 6 experience, definition.

One has a work in it, one does not, mine is all by faith, his is adding a work to be saved. Think about it, he says 6 is water, so one can't be raised up, and UNITED, unless he is water baptized.

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The baptism in Romans 6 was in response to a command:
The Roman Christians had previously been obedient to this command:
"you have come to obey" (Rom 6:17)
thereby being “made free from sin” (6:17-18).

Water baptism is a command, as in (Acts 2:38; 10:48; Matt 28:18-20).
Spirit baptism is never commanded.
Therefore, in context, Romans 6 is clearly referring to water baptism, and not Spirit baptism.

We are baptised into Jesus' death.
Someone needs to baptises us into Jesus' death. This can only refer to water baptism.
Romans 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

The symbolism is that when we go down into the watery grave of baptism, this is the point at which we participate in Jesus' death and burial. We die to our sins, and are baptised in water.
When we come up out of the water, we are participating in Jesus' resurrection. We rise in new life and are born again.
This symbolism would not make sense if it were referring to Spirit baptism.

Paul is talking about the kind of baptism he received - he uses the words "us" and "we"
Romans 6:3-4 "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism..."

Paul’s baptism in Damascus was in water (cf. Acts 22:16), therefore Romans 6 is referring to his water baptism.

In our "resurrection", we "emerge" or "come out" of something.
Rom 6:5 - "in a resurrection like his". When Jesus was resurrected, he came out of the tomb.
If Rom 6:5 is referring to Spirit baptism it would have to mean you come out of the Holy Spirit and leave it behind.
If this is referring to water baptism, it means you come up out of the water.

Spirit baptism is nolonger present today.
It was associated with the miraclous gifts of the Holy Spirit and served it's first-century purpose (Acts 2 and 10) - to prove that what the apostles was saing was true. "Tongues will be stilled" (1 Cor 13:8)
Water baptism on the other hand is to continue to the end of the Christian age (Matthew 28:20).

The argument that Romans 6 is talking about Spirit baptism is a relatively recent invention, and was used by Walvoord and Zuck in 1983. Upon careful study, it is clearly seen to be false.

Are you are implying that baptism is a work? You need to submit to be baptised by someone else. They are the ones doing the "work".

If you are going to categorize baptism as a work, then don't forget that belief and faith are works. John 6:29 "Jesus answered them, This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

The false doctrine of "faith only" was invented during the reformation in the 15th century as was an overreaction to the works oriented doctrine of the Catholic church. It is not part of the earliest writings of the church during the first few centuries.

The biblical pattern of salvation is as follows:
- Hear the word / or see a miracle in the time of Jesus.
- believe / have faith / Accept the word (the Good News - that there is a way to be saved)
- Repent of your sins
- Get baptised, at which point you receive 2 things:
- forgivness of sins (salvation)
- the internal dwelling of the Holy Spirit (not associated with miraculous gifts).

The problem with believe only, is that the demons believe, and they aren't saved, so there must be more to it.
James 2:9 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Some of the major events of the NT and the connection with water:

Birth of Jesus -
God's son comes to us through the birth waters.
God chose to do it way. He could have just let Jesus descend down to earth.

John the Baptist prepares the way for Jesus -
by introducing a baptism of repentance

Jesus first miracle involved water
John 2: 7-11 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

Jesus calls His first disciples -
Matthew 4:18-22 (Simon and Andrew's job involved water - they were fishermen.)

Jesus talks to Nicodemus about salvation
John 3: 1-5 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

Jesus heals the blind man, by telling him to wash in the water
John 9: 1-7 "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing."

End of Jesus' ministry, and the Great Commission given to the Apostles
Matt 28:18-20 - go make disciples, baptizing them.

Jesus death
Romans 3 and 6 - His blood washes away our sins.

The start of the Church
Act 2:38 - be baptised for the forgiveness of sins.

The Gentiles now eligible for salvation also, so Peter "ordered that they be baptized".
Acts 10:45-47 - The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water."


The "believers" believed Jesus and the apostles when they were told to be baptized, "for the forgiveness of your sins".

The vast majority of the "faith only" verses are written to believers that are already saved, and in essence are saying - "keep believing, and you will stay saved". They do not teach unbelievers how to be saved.


In order to find out how someones sins are forgiven in the first place, you need to look at verses written to non-believers, and about making disciples.

End of Jesus' ministry, and the Great Commission given to the Apostles
Matt 28:18-20 - go and make disciples, baptizing them...

The start of the Church
Act 2:38 - be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

The Gentiles now eligible for salvation also, so Peter "ordered that they be baptized".
Acts 10:45-47 - The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water."

Yes, the vast majority of the verses on salvation speak of "faith only". These verses are written to believers that are already saved, and in essence are saying - "keep believing, and you will stay saved". They do not teach unbelievers how to be saved. It would not make sense to tell baptised believers to "get baptised for the forgiveness of your sins". It is crucial however to encourage Christians to stay faithful, and to keep believing.

Also, in the book of Acts when people were being saved, it does not mention baptism at every point - it summarises by referring to a part which represents the whole. The language technique is called synecdoche, and is explained here: bebaptized[DOT]org/important.htm

Edial said:

Shameless promotion of Lutheranism as a best way of interpreting the Bible with Baptism and all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4TeJJmQJqU

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Hahah..that was really cute, i got a good laugh out of it. I am going to post in in the catholic section in a few minutes, thanks Ed.