Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Pfaffenhofen]

Yeh, I could agree to that wording. No splintering would be better, but of course the church that has had the greatest splintering of all is the Roman church that splintered at the time of the Reformation.

We can't pretend that this happened outside the Roman Catholic Church or that for the Protestant churches to have splintered is bad while the church that produced them by itself splintering somehow also remained intact.

Please, sorry to notice that you play with words and that leads nowhere.
Splintering was in the Protestant and you say splintering is in the Catholic Church.
We do know fall into this kind of reasoning that, sorry, almost makes us look stupid...

 

[ebia]

From my Catholic viewpoint, I do not see one change in Reformation that would make splintering worthwhile.

At the very least the Reformation drove the Catholic Church into making the reforms it did.

The way forward is to go back to Unity, whatever it takes.

well, the first and most important step would be for the RCC to drop it's claims of Papal infallibility and supremacy. So if you really mean "... whatever it takes" that's where to start.

 

[DCJazz]

Why so many cores?
Why dont you use the RCC core and let's be together and ONE?

Well I don't know about you, but the only core I'll rely on is Christ alone. I don't need the 'RCC' core to be saved.


And I think the reformation happened because at the time only clergy could read from the Bible, and at the time a lot of false doctrine was being taught. And the common man was unable to own and read the Bible for themselves, much less in a language they could understand.

And then Martin Luther translated it into German (if I remember that documentary correctly).

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

At the very least the Reformation drove the Catholic Church into making the reforms it did.


well, the first and most important step would be for the RCC to drop it's claims of Papal infallibility and supremacy. So if you really mean "... whatever it takes" that's where to start.

Wrong.

At the very least the Reformation drove the Catholic Church into making the reforms it did.

Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.
Look, we did not Reformation for Vatican II, not to talk about future Councils...

Papal infallibility

If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Wrong.

Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.
Look, we did not Reformation for Vatican II, not to talk about future Councils...

Much good came out of Trent, but Trent was a reactive council, not proactive (Church History does however show that most counsels, even those which the Lutherans and Anglicans accept were reactive).

There were other attempts at reform, Waldo and Hus for example; which all ended badly.

If one reads the Augsburg Confession, the Catholic refutation, and the Apology of the AC; the only conclusion one can come to is that reform and reconciliation were desired, not schism.

Had the Pope convened a council as promised, which was to include the Lutherans; the outcome of the reformation may have been quite different. However, there were politics involved, and the hearts of both sides became hardened, so it never happened... So we have Trent instead, and we were not invited to the party.

Note that St. Francis was considered quit a radical in his day; yet the Pope at that time was open-minded enough to grant Francis an audience; and many to this day consider him one of the great Saints of the RC Church.

If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!

While this has worked to maintain unity in many respects; there is no denying that the doctrines of infallibility and supremacy has also caused, and still causes and maintains much disunity in Christendom.

At present, relations and open dialogue between Rome and the Lutherans have never been better; but fellowship is still a long ways off.

 

[Albion]

If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're already the most-splintered church in Christendom. Where do you think the Lutherans, Reformed, Old Catholics and more came from but from RC splinterings? LOL

 

[Root of Jesse]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're already the most-splintered church in Christendom. Where do you think the Lutherans, Reformed, Old Catholics and more came from but from RC splinterings? LOL

Yeah, we're refining ourselves like purest gold...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well I don't know about you, but the only core I'll rely on is Christ alone. I don't need the 'RCC' core to be saved.


And I think the reformation happened because at the time only clergy could read from the Bible, and at the time a lot of false doctrine was being taught. And the common man was unable to own and read the Bible for themselves, much less in a language they could understand.

And then Martin Luther translated it into German (if I remember that documentary correctly).

That's saying you don't need the core of Christianity to be a Christian.

What you think is not what's actually true. Books were expensive, the Bibles were chained to the pulpit, and most of Europe was illiterate. There are earlier Germanic translations of the Bible. You do know that Germany wasn't a country in Luther's time, don't you?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Much good came out of Trent, but Trent was a reactive council, not proactive (Church History does however show that most counsels, even those which the Lutherans and Anglicans accept were reactive).

There were other attempts at reform, Waldo and Hus for example; which all ended badly.

If one reads the Augsburg Confession, the Catholic refutation, and the Apology of the AC; the only conclusion one can come to is that reform and reconciliation were desired, not schism.

Had the Pope convened a council as promised, which was to include the Lutherans; the outcome of the reformation may have been quite different. However, there were politics involved, and the hearts of both sides became hardened, so it never happened... So we have Trent instead, and we were not invited to the party.

Note that St. Francis was considered quit a radical in his day; yet the Pope at that time was open-minded enough to grant Francis an audience; and many to this day consider him one of the great Saints of the RC Church.




While this has worked to maintain unity in many respects; there is no denying that the doctrines of infallibility and supremacy has also caused, and still causes and maintains much disunity in Christendom.

At present, relations and open dialogue between Rome and the Lutherans have never been better; but fellowship is still a long ways off.

Let's forget what would be if ... if... if ...
I hope there will be unity.
Sorry but it must be under the Pope. No matter how much disunity it causes, Papacy is unbreakable.
I am glad that things go well between Lutherans and Catholics. I hope they will get even better.

»»»»
Let me add something. Maybe the Children of Reformation do not realize how much means Papacy to Catholics. After the Reformation, the Holy Spirit created the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, created by St Ignatius of Loyola, now the biggest Order of the Church. The Holy Spirit created it to counteract Reformation.
The Society of Jesus countered the principles of Reformation. The Jesuits, more than the 3 vows, have a 4th vow, the vow of Obedience to the Pope. They have the principle of obedience "perinde ac cadaver", meaning, like a corpse. You obey the Pope like a robot, you fulfill the wishes of the Holy Father totally. If the Holy Father tells a Jesuit: "Tomorrow you go to China", the Jesuit must be prepared to go. And do whatever the Pope wants, wherever he wants....
This tries to be similar to the obedience of Jesus Christ to the Father, Who was obedient to the Cross. Jesus asked the Father that, if possible, He be spared to this death but He wanted more the will of the Father than His. And he fulfilled it.
Obedience to the Pope is what God wants. Let us be clear. Nothing can hurt the power of the Pope.the Pope has many faults and sins? Yes. Some of them were corrupt? Yes. But this what God wanted. Remember that Jesus Christ said that the power of Pilates came from God (!!!) (but this is no reason for dictatorship: I believe that democracy is God's will today !!).
Let's not have illusions: Papacy is God's will. On this rock it is built the Church of God. The Church will never be democratic.
Let's not have illusions. This does not depend on one's own opinion. I may be even wrong, or right, it does not matter. what matters is the Will of God, what we see in History that is the Finger of God pointing to His Will.
If I saw it was Lutheranism, I would become Lutheran. If I saw it right the Anglicanism, I would become Anglican.
In the last 2000 years, I do not see other than the RCC.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're already the most-splintered church in Christendom. Where do you think the Lutherans, Reformed, Old Catholics and more came from but from RC splinterings? LOL

Here you come you and your play with words. My English is bad but when Protestant splinter they remain Protestant. When someone branches out of the Catholic Church He is Catholic no more. You say all right: "came from" it means that they do not belong to no more...

 

[Albion]

Here you come you and your play with words. My English is bad but when Protestant splinter they remain Protestant. When someone branches out of the Catholic Church He is Catholic no more.

...and THAT's a play on words. When your church splits, it pretends that one piece, the RCC, isn't broken. In time there are dozen of pieces, but people like you pretend that all but one of them are not pieces.

Any of the Protestant churches could play the same game you're playing (and a few do so) and say, for example, "our church, the Lutheran Episcopal Church--Mexico Synod, is united. Oh yes, some others broke off from us so they're not real Lutherans anymore."

That's all that the game requires.

 

[Root of Jesse]

...and THAT's a play on words. When your church splits, it pretends that one piece, the RCC, isn't broken. In time there are dozen of pieces, but people like you pretend that all but one of them are not pieces.

Any of the Protestant churches could play the same game you're playing (and a few do so) and say, for example, "our church, the Lutheran Episcopal Church--Mexico Synod, is united. Oh yes, some others broke off from us so they're not real Lutherans anymore."

That's all that the game requires.

Yes, but with us, we say, and know, that The Catholic Church is united in our beliefs. We all believe what the Church teaches. Those that don't are not Catholic, at least not in line with the teachings of Christ, which is what the Catholic Church is.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Yeah, we're refining ourselves like purest gold...

That was mean...But I see some members putting "sarcasm" and "LOL" on their posts that I do not blame you...

 

[Albion]

Yes, but with us, we say, and know, that The Catholic Church is united in our beliefs.

You can say that, but everyone who is not determined to put a pretty face on a harsh reality knows that there is a great range of belief within the RCC. Just this week, for example, the supporters of Obama's plan to make Catholic hospitals cover birth control expenses for all employees told the bishops that their protests were not convincing BECAUSE everyone knows that almost all Catholic women practice forbidden birth control methods. It's not even worth arguing the opposite anymore.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Let's forget what would be if ... if... if ...
I hope there will be unity.
Sorry but it must be under the Pope. No matter how much disunity it causes, Papacy is unbreakable.
I am glad that things go well between Lutherans and Catholics. I hope they will get even better.

to be continued with next posts to other members.

Actually, we should not forget the "ifs".

If we fail to view history with a critical eye, one where we look at the "could haves, would haves, should haves"; history shows us that we just keep repeating the same mistakes decade after decade, century after century, millennium after millennium. Likewise, things that were handled well in the past often are forgotten when new situations arise.

Collectively, mankind is a slow learner, dense, dull and nearsighted, apart from a very few shining examples.

 

[Rick Otto]

apart from a very few shining examples.

Thank you Mark, I almost thought you had completely forgotten about me.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank you Mark, I almost thought you had completely forgotten about me.

You are on your "A" game today Rick!

 

[Rick Otto]

Here you come you and your play with words. My English is bad but when Protestant splinter they remain Protestant. When someone branches out of the Catholic Church He is Catholic no more. You say all right: "came from" it means that they do not belong to no more...

I agree. I "came from" out of her to bear His reproach outside the camp.
I stay out of pews 'cause I got a realy bad splinter from one as a child.

(OK, I made that last part up)

 

[ebia]

Wrong.

Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.
Look, we did not Reformation for Vatican II, not to talk about future Councils...

Debatable. I think not.
It looks to me like the reformation drove the counter reformation, provided many of the necessary stimuluses for Vatican II, and continues to push the RCC in areas where further reform is needed.

If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!

in other words when you talked about unity at any cost you meant at any cost to us, not to you.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Well I don't know about you, but the only core I'll rely on is Christ alone. I don't need the 'RCC' core to be saved.


And I think the reformation happened because at the time only clergy could read from the Bible, and at the time a lot of false doctrine was being taught. And the common man was unable to own and read the Bible for themselves, much less in a language they could understand.

And then Martin Luther translated it into German (if I remember that documentary correctly).

RCC is Christ.