Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Root of Jesse]

Thank you for confirming how irrelevant they are.

Let me ask you this: would you ever catch Jesus wearing vestments? Would you ever catch any of his desciples wearing vestments?

I think not.

Did Jewish priest wear vestments?

And actually, priests and the hierarchy just kept the dress they always wore, it was the laity that changed their dress.

Your example is not relevant to modern times. Thanks for staying in context.

 

[athenken]

Let's see....it's outside of a church. It's a leader of an entity. He's paraded on shoulders. It's relevant, in that neither is a form of worship, and both are forms of pride in a leader.

Thank you for proving our point.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Thank you for proving our point.

Not the same as worship, though, is it? And it's not as if he planned his own party. Quite the opposite.

 

[athenken]

Not the same as worship, though, is it? And it's not as if he planned his own party. Quite the opposite.

What you are equating here is having catholics carrying the Pope on a dias to an impromptu situation where players lift their coach, or another player, on their shoulders after they win a very important game. These two events cannot be compared. One is spontaneous, the other is planned. One is a secular event where there is a spontaneous celebration, the other is a group of religious (roman catholic) individuals carrying their "leader" on their shoulders in a ceremony of sorts.

Not the same at all.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What you are equating here is having catholics carrying the Pope on a dias to an impromptu situation where players lift their coach, or another player, on their shoulders after they win a very important game. These two events cannot be compared. One is spontaneous, the other is planned. One is a secular event where there is a spontaneous celebration, the other is a group of religious (roman catholic) individuals carrying their "leader" on their shoulders in a ceremony of sorts.

Not the same at all.

What makes you think that that photo was not one of an impromptu event? While I'm sure there was some scurrying around for Swiss Guards and protocol, I can almost guarantee that the Pope/Vatican did not plan to have a procession with Pius XII being carried on people's shoulders. Pius XII was a humble person who really didn't want to be Pope, especially given the times.
If you think that, you ought to study up. Popes live in relative simplicity, owning nothing, no, not even the ring and crozier the wear, they have an apartment where they live in seclusion, they don't even own their time. No air conditioning in the Vatican at all, except for the precious preservation of climate for the art. The Pope is a servant the way a shepherd tends his sheep-the sheep are more valuable than the shepherd.

 

[athenken]

What makes you think that that photo was not one of an impromptu event? While I'm sure there was some scurrying around for Swiss Guards and protocol, I can almost guarantee that the Pope/Vatican did not plan to have a procession with Pius XII being carried on people's shoulders. Pius XII was a humble person who really didn't want to be Pope, especially given the times.
If you think that, you ought to study up. Popes live in relative simplicity, owning nothing, no, not even the ring and crozier the wear, they have an apartment where they live in seclusion, they don't even own their time. No air conditioning in the Vatican at all, except for the precious preservation of climate for the art. The Pope is a servant the way a shepherd tends his sheep-the sheep are more valuable than the shepherd.

Hmmm...interesting. I don't recall ever seeing a bunch of sheep carrying their shepherd on their shoulders.

If the Pope is so humble then why does he allow them to carry him in this way?

There is just too much inconsistency going on here.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hmmm...interesting. I don't recall ever seeing a bunch of sheep carrying their shepherd on their shoulders.

If the Pope is so humble then why does he allow them to carry him in this way?

There is just too much inconsistency going on here.

About the same reason a grandfather or father might allow his toddler to dress him in a tutu. It pleases the people. Do you see him waving, as if he's the President of the US who just won an election? It looks to me like he's tolerating it, like he doesn't want to be there.

 

[mantelofaprophet]

Because the foundation (Christ) is found in the Church he instituted-the Catholic Church. What men have done is of no consequence. The Church is Holy because Christ is Holy. Period.

unbiblical response.....period!and as always history will soon repeat itself, and these branches of murder and forced conversion will rise again, until she has served her purpose then she herself will be destroyed by the powers she rode in on

 

[mantelofaprophet]

Where do you want to put him? in a hole? In the underground?
You do not understand because you do not see the dimension of the Catholic Church. There are 2 000 bishops, 1 million priests as many or more nuns and 1 billion faithful.

Do you think he is in such a High pedestal compared with the Queen of England ? He moves on with little security even after the attempt on John Paul II. He works 15 hours a day. His room is simple. He did not marry and devotes His life to the Church.

Can you tell me what are the characteristics of the pedestal, that i do not see?

Its an unbiblical hiearchy of power and authority

 

[Root of Jesse]

unbiblical response.....period!and as always history will soon repeat itself, and these branches of murder and forced conversion will rise again, until she has served her purpose then she herself will be destroyed by the powers she rode in on

I don't have to go by just the Bible. I'm Catholic. But Matt 16:18-20 proves that Christ instituted a Church. One Church.

There was never any murder or forced conversion.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Its an unbiblical hiearchy of power and authority

The hierarchy is biblical. Comes from the OT, and again in 2 Timothy.

 

[athenken]

The hierarchy is biblical. Comes from the OT, and again in 2 Timothy.

How so? Please elaborate.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How so? Please elaborate.

Aaron was the high priest, and had other priests performing duties under his purview. In Luke, Zechariah was one of many high priests.

Jesus called the Apostles. He also called St. Paul. These are the first bishops. Jesus also named Peter to be the greatest among equals.

Paul told Timothy to pass on to his (Timothy's) successor what I have taught you.

This illustrates Jesus as high priest, Peter his appointed head, with the apostles equal. That's the Catholic Church's hierarchy.

 

[mantelofaprophet]

The hierarchy is biblical. Comes from the OT, and again in 2 Timothy.

Old testiment= old covenant In the new covenant there are only the God appointed positions in the church Ephesians 4:11 apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers .......also in each church there were Elders and deacons and bishops...........every position beyond the scope of these God given appointments is an unbiblical position and merely a man made hiearchy of error

 

[Root of Jesse]

Old testiment= old covenant In the new covenant there are only the God appointed positions in the church Ephesians 4:11 apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers .......also in each church there were Elders and deacons and bishops...........every position beyond the scope of these God given appointments is an unbiblical position and merely a man made hiearchy of error

Peter was the first pope-Matt 16:18, regardless of whether he was called that, or not. He was an apostle, and a bishop. Past that, we have pastors and deacons. So, as I said, it's all biblical, just as you proved. We don't claim prophets or evangelists. Our hierarchy is simple. Priest (pastor of small flock), bishop (pastor of larger flock), pope (pastor of whole flock).

 

[mantelofaprophet]

Peter was the first pope-Matt 16:18, regardless of whether he was called that, or not. He was an apostle, and a bishop. Past that, we have pastors and deacons. So, as I said, it's all biblical, just as you proved. We don't claim prophets or evangelists. Our hierarchy is simple. Priest (pastor of small flock), bishop (pastor of larger flock), pope (pastor of whole flock).

Pope, Priest, Cardinals, most of all Catholicism is a manmade hiearchy, Its unbiblical at every turn, but since you follow tradition more than the biblical mandates you get what you pay for. your hiearchy is simple, simply in error of the living Word of God.

 

[mantelofaprophet]

just so you understand your protestant counter parts are not in line either with the God appointed positions

 

[Root of Jesse]

Pope, Priest, Cardinals, most of all Catholicism is a manmade hiearchy, Its unbiblical at every turn, but since you follow tradition more than the biblical mandates you get what you pay for. your hiearchy is simple, simply in error of the living Word of God.

They are all God-made, but Cardinals are just bishops, when you get right down to it. Bishops with offices in Rome. We can show that , from Christ's own time, this was what He intended.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

unbiblical response.....period!and as always history will soon repeat itself, and these branches of murder and forced conversion will rise again, until she has served her purpose then she herself will be destroyed by the powers she rode in on

The RCC will be destroyed?
I have serious doubts it will be...

 

[ebia]

They are all God-made, but Cardinals are just bishops, when you get right down to it. Bishops with offices in Rome.

Or deacons.