Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[MPaul]

Pfaffenhofen,

I had to stop posting due to time constraints, but I have an idea, that I would have time for. Why not, probably in a new thread, I set out quotes from the bible on just what the power and authority of the bible is, while in contrast you set out quotes from Catholic catechisms, or church statements, on what is the power and authority of Holy Tradition. It should be interesting to compare the two sets of supporting evidence on ultimate authority. There are just so many verses from the bible on what it is, that I could just copy and paste them quickly. If you want, you could also post photos of Cathedrals, worships articles, noble clothing, art work as well to support your position. I think having these two sets of evidence could be decisive. What do you think? I'll start with things like the Word of God is sharper than a two edged sword, is pure as silver refined in a furnace seven times, is what we should live by, rather than bread alone.

 

[Albion]

I thought that's what this thread is about; discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the Reformation; and likewise, the good, the bad and the ugly of the pre reformation Church; looking at the cause and the effect, and trying to come to a deeper understanding.



Albion, with all due respect, I believe that all denominations and Churches have dissenters within.

Absolutely they do! BUT are their members online here every day denying that it's true? No. That's my point.

Within Anglicanism and Liberal Lutheranism, there are those who are at odds with various recent innovations such as homosexuality, female ordination, fellowship with reformed protestant denominations etc. Likewise within our Confessional Lutheran Synods and more conservative Anglican Churches and Provinces, there are those who feel that we are not conservative enough.

Very true. Did you notice the difference?

We should not hold the membership of the RCC to a higher standard than to which we hold those within our own communions.

We are not doing that. We are keeping the record straight when they try to say that their church is better than ours because, allegedly, they are united, don't have disagreements, etc.

It is the dishonest propaganda that we are disagreeing with.

WeThere are few Christians, within and outside of Rome that will not agree that the pre reformation Church needed reform.

I can name you five right now who post on these forums regularly. If that's the case, I wonder if the total overall is really "few."

In my opinion, the greatest shame of the Reformation was not Luther and his colleagues, It was the Princes who desired political independence, and championed the Reformation to achieve this end. Christ said that we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's. The pre Reformation Church should have been only that, a Church, not "the" political power to be reckoned with; likewise, the reformation should not have been used to wrest political power away from Rome. IMO, it is this confusing and confounding of roles on both sides which became the biggest barrier, and ultimately prevented meaningful and open discussion, resolution, and reconciliation. Had politics been kept out of the equation, we may well be seeing a much different Christian Church than we have today.

Hard to say for sure, but it's a reasonable thesis.

 

[whitetiger1]

Pfaffenhofen,

I had to stop posting due to time constraints, but I have an idea, that I would have time for. Why not, probably in a new thread, I set out quotes from the bible on just what the power and authority of the bible is, while in contrast you set out quotes from Catholic catechisms, or church statements, on what is the power and authority of Holy Tradition. It should be interesting to compare the two sets of supporting evidence on ultimate authority. There are just so many verses from the bible on what it is, that I could just copy and paste them quickly. If you want, you could also post photos of Cathedrals, worships articles, noble clothing, art work as well to support your position. I think having these two sets of evidence could be decisive. What do you think? I'll start with things like the Word of God is sharper than a two edged sword, is pure as silver refined in a furnace seven times, is what we should live by, rather than bread alone.

You could ask for a formal debate in the debate section. I would like to see it myself

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Pfaffenhofen,

I had to stop posting due to time constraints, but I have an idea, that I would have time for. Why not, probably in a new thread, I set out quotes from the bible on just what the power and authority of the bible is, while in contrast you set out quotes from Catholic catechisms, or church statements, on what is the power and authority of Holy Tradition. It should be interesting to compare the two sets of supporting evidence on ultimate authority. There are just so many verses from the bible on what it is, that I could just copy and paste them quickly. If you want, you could also post photos of Cathedrals, worships articles, noble clothing, art work as well to support your position. I think having these two sets of evidence could be decisive. What do you think? I'll start with things like the Word of God is sharper than a two edged sword, is pure as silver refined in a furnace seven times, is what we should live by, rather than bread alone.

Paul, I never my back to a challenge. Let's go ahead.
I understood the idea.
Now in practical terms, I need guidance. I think that there are better people than me, here, to defend my position, but if you have thrown the glove to me, here I am, expecting orders (did you hear ? "expecting orders", that is a Catholic viewpoint ).
I am not going at quoting (I admire some people here who know by heart and can quote from so many sources...), better at reasoning with the data I have.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

You could ask for a formal debate in the debate section. I would like to see it myself

I will follow, as I do not have the faintest idea of what is the debate section or what a formal debate is. I thought this was the debate section....
Ignorance is a sad thing....

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Absolutely they do! BUT are their members online here every day denying that it's true? No. That's my point.


Very true. Did you notice the difference?




We are not doing that. We are keeping the record straight when they try to say that their church is better than ours because, allegedly, they are united, don't have disagreements, etc.

It is the dishonest propaganda that we are disagreeing with.



I can name you five right now who post on these forums regularly. If that's the case, I wonder if the total overall is really "few."



Hard to say for sure, but it's a reasonable thesis.

Hard to say for sure, but it's a reasonable thesis.

I do not know what happened with Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but definitely Henry VIII used the sword more than the persuasion.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I will follow, as I do not have the faintest idea of what is the debate section or what a formal debate is. I thought this was the debate section....
Ignorance is a sad thing....

This is more of an open debate area here. Formal Debates are one-on-one; you and your opponent would discuss and agree upon the stipulations in this Forum:

Formal Debate Proposals , following these guidelines;

Read before posting in this Forum--Guidelines for Debate Proposals...

Once the stipulations are agreed upon, a member of Staff (usually me ), will set up the debate here: Formal Debate

Any other questions?

 

[whitetiger1]

I will follow, as I do not have the faintest idea of what is the debate section or what a formal debate is. I thought this was the debate section....
Ignorance is a sad thing....

There is a formal Debate forum for, well debates

http://www.christianforums.com/f924/ this is where two can debate without a peanut gallery. Then there is a place the rest of us can talk about the ongoing debate

 

[Albion]

I do not know what happened with Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but definitely Henry VIII used the sword more than the persuasion.

Henry actually executed very few people, about eleven a year, as compared to "Bloody" Mary, his Catholic daughter who is not called that for nothing. Luther of course was in no position to order the execution of anyone, and Calvin ordered the execution of Michael Servetus.

 

[DCJazz]

That's saying you don't need the core of Christianity to be a Christian.

Actually, it's not. The true core is Christ alone. I don't need the doctrines, traditions... and dare I say, even the rituals of the Catholic church to be saved. When it comes down to determining if I am saved or not, that is for Christ alone to decide, whether I have come to him in repentance or not (though obviously the 'not' part would mean I would not be saved, of course).

So I don't need the RCC core to be saved; I only need Christ and his salvation and mercy, to repent of my old ways and start anew in Him.

What you think is not what's actually true. Books were expensive, the Bibles were chained to the pulpit, and most of Europe was illiterate. There are earlier Germanic translations of the Bible. You do know that Germany wasn't a country in Luther's time, don't you?

Like I said, I could be remembering things wrong. And I know that Germany wasn't a country at the time. But history isn't my strong suit in those regards, and I didn't look up a source (shame on me, I know).

Like I said, I was working from memory, so I was bound to be wrong on a few things, sorry for the inconvenience.

However, that's beside my point, which is that I don't need to be Catholic to be saved.

As for this deal on 'Papal Infallibility", if it means that the Pope is infallible... then that's false doctrine through and through. All men are fallible, and the more power a man has, the more fallible he tends to be. If you must have a Pope, make it Christ, and not man, as Christ IS infallible, and the hope of all mankind at that.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Henry actually executed very few people, about eleven a year, as compared to "Bloody" Mary, his Catholic daughter who is not called that for nothing. Luther of course was in no position to order the execution of anyone, and Calvin ordered the execution of Michael Servetus.

Bloody Mary seemed not to be very efficient, killing so many people.

Henry VIII was like the comedian play which showed the preacher with a 99% conversion rate.
He preached and in the end he asked: "Anybody against?"
One guy arose and gave his arguments against.
Then, the preacher took a gun a shot the guy down to the floor.
"Anybody against?" - asked the preacher.
"Nooooooooooooo!" And the crowd kneeled down to floor.
The preacher only killed one person.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

This is more of an open debate area here. Formal Debates are one-on-one; you and your opponent would discuss and agree upon the stipulations in this Forum:

Formal Debate Proposals , following these guidelines;

Read before posting in this Forum--Guidelines for Debate Proposals...

Once the stipulations are agreed upon, a member of Staff (usually me ), will set up the debate here: Formal Debate

Any other questions?

As clear as water. Zero questions.
I have bookmarked the links to study them.
Thanks.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

There is a formal Debate forum for, well debates

http://www.christianforums.com/f924/ this is where two can debate without a peanut gallery. Then there is a place the rest of us can talk about the ongoing debate

Thanks for the info.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As clear as water. Zero questions.
I have bookmarked the links to study them.
Thanks.

You are most welcome!

 

[MPaul]

Paul, I never my back to a challenge. Let's go ahead.
I understood the idea.
Now in practical terms, I need guidance. I think that there are better people than me, here, to defend my position, but if you have thrown the glove to me, here I am, expecting orders (did you hear ? "expecting orders", that is a Catholic viewpoint ).
I am not going at quoting (I admire some people here who know by heart and can quote from so many sources...), better at reasoning with the data I have.

Wow!!! I think my post has been misunderstood. I'm not throwing down the glove or making any kind of challenge. I'm just saying it would be interesting to contrast bible verses on what the bible is, to what the RCC upholds as the authority of Holy Tradition. There is no debate to it (unless I'm being naive somehow). It would just be a thread, where people could read what the bible says on its authority, and what the RCC says on the authority of Holy Tradition. Of course, the Catholics are going to say that what they post is irrefutable, and the Protestants will say that the bible verses confirm their position. No one will be convinced otherwise -- but it still would be interesting to see the two types of evidence in contrast.

I'm just guessing that you would have to use Catholic catechisms and official church statements on Holy Tradition as the proper representation of its authority. However, I'm also guessing that photos of Cathedrals, articles used in worship, noble clothes, and art work would also be a representation of the power and authority of Holy Tradition according to the RCC.

I can see why you might say someone else would be better at posting the RCC statements, as personally, I find their official statements difficult (I won't go into why, so as not to say something that could be considered biased). However, I think if you just ask a priest, he will be able to direct you to the catechisms and official statements. I'm not asking you to debate them, but just to set them out, so they can be contrasted to the posts I make quoting Scripture. However, we both might want to make clarifying statements on what we quote means.

Hmmm.... but if you think you really are not familiar enough with how the RCC states its position on the authority of Holy Tradition, then that's alright -- we can forget the idea. I know none of this is easy, and it takes a lot of time. However, then maybe I should start a thread with just quotes from the bible on the authority of the bible -- because that is the true basis of everything Protestant, and it would throw other threads into perspective.

I'll wait for your response before proceeding, and my posts might have to be made slowly, as I'm just very busy right now.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bloody Mary seemed not to be very efficient, killing so many people.

Henry VIII was like the comedian play which showed the preacher with a 99% conversion rate.
He preached and in the end he asked: "Anybody against?"
One guy arose and gave his arguments against.
Then, the preacher took a gun a shot the guy down to the floor.
"Anybody against?" - asked the preacher.
"Nooooooooooooo!" And the crowd kneeled down to floor.
The preacher only killed one person.

John Knox's reformation in Scotland was not without a bit of strife either.

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Knox; he condemned kneeling for Communion because he felt it was idolatry; I just also noted pictures in the article of various statues of Knox... wondering if he would have considered these idolatry as well.

 

[Albion]

BTW, if we are comparing Reformation-era personalities with the RCC's crusades and inquisitions, not only did the latter kill many more people (both the innocent and those guilty of something), but the Spanish Inquisition was in effect until 1832. I suspect that most people think of it as some Medieval thing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

BTW, if we are comparing Reformation-era personalities with the RCC's crusades and inquisitions, not only did the latter kill many more people (both the innocent and those guilty of something), but the Spanish Inquisition was in effect until 1832. I suspect that most people think of it as some Medieval thing.

Or, the Medieval age ended in 1832.

Lame Joke Drums - Rimshot (For use in forums) - YouTube

 

[Albion]

Is that avatar a picture of you, Mark?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Is that avatar a picture of you, Mark?

Yup. At the sailing club they call me "Captain Cool". I race hard, and I push what ever boat I'm racing hard; that means getting knocked down a few times a year. The "Cool" in the nick name comes from the fact that by the time the rescue or committee boat reaches me, I'm usually virtually dry, enjoying a smoke and a beer.

I love sailing!