Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Back on topic, According to Wikipedia, it's interesting how Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, and Old Orthodox each out number all of the reformed protestant, unorthodox, and non Christian religions put together!

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia has 450,000 members.[1] The Latvian Orthodox Church is semi-autonomous and has 350,000 members.[1] Roman Catholicism in Latvia has 430,000 members.[1] Historically, the west and central parts of the country have been predominantly Protestant, while the east – particularly the Latgale region – has been predominantly Catholic.[2] Orthodoxy predominates among the Latvian Russian population.
As of 2009, the population of Jews in Latvia was 667;[1] there were several hundred Hindus in Latvia;[citation needed] and there were several hundred to a few thousand Muslims in Latvia.[citation needed] A modern neopagan movement is Dievturība.[citation needed]
As of February 2003, the Justice Ministry had registered 1098 congregations.[3] This total included: Lutheran (307), Roman Catholic (252), Orthodox (117), Baptist (90), Old Believer Orthodox (67), Seventh-day Adventist (47), Jehovah's Witnesses (12), Methodist (12), Jewish (13), Buddhist (5), Muslim (5), Hare Krishna (10), Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) (3), and more than 100 other congregations. In 2003, the Government also registered the Christian Scientists as a recognized religious congregation.

The ratios seem similar in Estonia:

Less than a third of the population define themselves as believers, of those the majority are Lutheran, whereas the Russian minority is Eastern Orthodox. Ancient equinoctial traditions (like St John's Day) are held in high regard. In 2000, according to the census, 29.2% of the population considered themselves to be related to any religion, thereof:[14]

• 13.6% Lutheran Christians
• 12.8% Orthodox Christians
• 6,009 Baptists
• 5,745 Roman Catholics
• 4,268 Jehovah's Witnesses
• 2,648 Pentecostals
• 2,515 Old Believers
• 1,561 Adventists
• 1,455 Methodists
• 1,387 Muslims
• 5,008 followers of other religions

And in Lithuania:

• Roman Catholics - 79% (2,752,447 people)
• Orthodox Believers - 4.05% (141,821)
• Old Believers - 0.77% (27,073)
• Evangelical Lutherans - 0.56% (19,637)
• Evangelical Reformists - 0.2% (7,082)
• Jehovah's Witnesses - 0.1% (3,512)
• Sunni Muslims - 0.08% (2,860)
• All Gospel Churches - 0.06% (2,207)
• Pentecostal Church - 0.04% (1,307)
• Jews - 0.04% (1,272)
• Balts Believers - 0.04% (1,270)
• Baptists (and other independent churches) - 0.04% (1,249)
• Other believers - 0.135% (4,701)
• Not any - 9.5% (331,087)
• Not indicated - 5.35% (186,447) (2001 census)[2]

I would have to look into this further, but I would believe that there were closer ties with Latvia and Estonia with the Nordic Countries, which would explain the large Lutheran presence in those countries; not the case with Lithuania, I'm guessing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<duplicate post>

 

[Albion]

Estonia and Latvia are historically Lutheran. I suspect that most of the Orthodox there are Russians who moved in during the Soviet days. The Baltic states were attractive areas for Soviet military personnel to retire to. Lithuania is historically Catholic and passionately so.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Okay, I will start off with a hint of review here. First of all, remind yourselves with a solid fact that there's no such status as "fake-christian." Just as the darkness is a state in which the light does not exist within an enclosed space, a person can either be a Christian or non-believer. Next, it's true that the bond between God and men were once severed in the past. Thanks to Jesus, who became the ransom for our sins, however, no being could possibly take away a believer from his hand. Lastly, if you believe in Christ, then you are a Christian. Some may say things like, "No, you are not a Christian, at least not yet. You need to receive the Holy Spirit. You need to receive baptism. You need to do this, that...," and the list goes on. The Holy Spirit guides a person to Jesus and that person ultimately becomes a believer in Christ through his faith in Jesus, which means that you can only be a Christian after you have received the Holy Spirit in your heart. The Holy Spirit resides within the heart of a Christian forever.


Who then is not the rightful heir to the promise of Jesus?

-Any being who says there's other requirements to be fulfilled/ways of salvation other than the faith in Jesus Christ. (To be saved.)

-Any being who denies the concept of Trinity.

-Any being who denies the Holy Spirit's status as the Counselor sent by God to fill the place left behind by Jesus Christ and to guide lost sheep back to God.

-Any being who does not possess the Holy Spirit in their heart.

-Any being/church/group/cult that puts the worth of any form of need for an attainment of spiritual gifts, practices, rituals, and etc. over the faith in Jesus Christ.

If the practices of your church corresponds with one or more of what's been stated above, then your church is not in communion with Christ. Good tree bears good fruit and bad tree bears rotten fruit. No work of man can compensate for his sins, but his faith in Jesus can. Once you become a believer, the Holy Spirit in your heart will compel you to do deeds that are favorable in the eyes of God. Works are not something you need to force yourselves to do. In doing so, you will only drown yourselves in confusion. Your faith can be proven by your fruits. The fruits of your faith are reflected in your works. If your body have truly become the temple for the Holy Spirit and the Spirit dwells in you, then your works will truly be great. To be born again, you, therefore, must receive the Holy Spirit. Some say that you need something of an extra to be saved, as the bible says not everyone will be saved. That's blatantly wrong. Jesus said he shall not turn away anyone who seeks him. Those who are to be condemned are walking the path other than that of a Christian. Anyone who is not with Jesus is against him and those who fail to see the truth are under the influence of the prince of the air, Satan. Check and see the numbers of sects/denominations/types of churches that claim themselves to be the genuine church of Christ with practices that correspond with the things I've stated on the list above. The numbers should be overwhelming in comparison to the numbers of believers who have kept their faith in Christ. If a spirit tells you that Jesus is from God in a literal sense and does not follow one or more things that are stated here, then that spirit is not the Holy Spirit. If one truly puts his faith in Jesus, then how can he/she/it confess otherwise? Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong? Don't let yourselves be the decider, let God be the decider of your fates.

Proof:

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," {1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV)}

"Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says 'Jesus is accursed!' and no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit." {1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)}

{Galatians 5:22–23 (ESV)}

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." {Galatians 5:22–23 (ESV)}

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." {Romans 8:9 (ESV)}

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." {Ephesians 1:13–14 (ESV)}

"and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." {1 John 4:3 (ESV)}

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." {John 6:44 (ESV)}

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." {John 14:6 (ESV)}

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." {2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV)}

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." {2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV)}

"So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit." {Matthew 7:17 (ESV)}

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." {Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)}

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” {Revelation 22:13 (ESV)}

"And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." {Revelation 21:6 (ESV)}

I think that is common to all Christians.
But I think that is not nice to call Satan to Fellow Christians. Christians should be united around Chirst.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Wow! I new they liked to sing, but I had no idea that they liked it so much.

BTW, I buy these tiny little smoked fish in a tin called Sprats (zelts) in Oil, Riga Gold brand, from Latvia; they are just about the tastiest thing in the whole world!

It is a must. Go to Youtube and type: Estonia+Singing Revolution.
They freed themselves from the Russians...singing.
This runs deeper: those are songs of freedom of people who were never free from the Middle Ages. They sing something like Latvia, my country, my beloved country. It is not singing. It is a natural shout of joy for freedom. It is considered by UNESCO immaterial heritage of Humanity.
In fact the Baltic countries are planes, so they were corridors for all invadors. I get moved by those songs, how naive, how brutal is their joy of freedom that they can reunite so many people at a time (4x4 years).
I would love to have holidays in those countries in these Feestivals. It must be something...

 

[blackstrawberry]

I think that is common to all Christians.
But I think that is not nice to call Satan to Fellow Christians. Christians should be united around Chirst.

Be minded of the fact that the title of Christian is not something that can be given unto pigs as you should not show your pearls to such people. The humanity's greatest treasure is Jesus' promise of eternal salvation. We, therefore, must try our best to live and fulfill the purpose as believers in Christ. It is written in the Bible that Christians should not even eat with the one who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler. Again, if you are not with Jesus, then you are against him. In the day of judgment, such "brothers of faith" will be the ones who will make blatant claims before the Lord of Creation that they are the righteous ones in the name of the Lord Almighty. Our Lord then shall make them weep by burning off their lies to show their true nature as murders, the children of vipers. Paul said in the past that Christians should be one in Christ, but among Christians, there will be various ways of showing worship to the Lord Almighty. If everything is set in accordance to the faith in the Jesus Christ and God alone, then different paths of showing worship to the Lord can be justified. Just because the hand of a person is different from the head of a person, would you cut it off by saying that the hand is not of the person? Just as the hand serves a different function from the head, feet, and other parts of the body shall function differently but under one purpose.

"On that day many will say to me, &#8216;Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?&#8217; And then will I declare to them, &#8216;I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.&#8217;" {Matthew 7:22 (ESV)}

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler&#8212;not even to eat with such a one." {1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)}

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually, it's not. The true core is Christ alone. I don't need the doctrines, traditions... and dare I say, even the rituals of the Catholic church to be saved. When it comes down to determining if I am saved or not, that is for Christ alone to decide, whether I have come to him in repentance or not (though obviously the 'not' part would mean I would not be saved, of course).

So I don't need the RCC core to be saved; I only need Christ and his salvation and mercy, to repent of my old ways and start anew in Him.



Like I said, I could be remembering things wrong. And I know that Germany wasn't a country at the time. But history isn't my strong suit in those regards, and I didn't look up a source (shame on me, I know).

Like I said, I was working from memory, so I was bound to be wrong on a few things, sorry for the inconvenience.

However, that's beside my point, which is that I don't need to be Catholic to be saved.

As for this deal on 'Papal Infallibility", if it means that the Pope is infallible... then that's false doctrine through and through. All men are fallible, and the more power a man has, the more fallible he tends to be. If you must have a Pope, make it Christ, and not man, as Christ IS infallible, and the hope of all mankind at that.

The point I'm making is that Christ is the center of the "RCC". If you say you don't need the "RCC" to point you to the center, you're saying you don't need Christ. Christ is the center of Christianity, and The "RCC" is the center of the Church Christ founded.

What do you think Papal Infallibility is?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Be minded of the fact that the title of Christian is not something that can be given unto pigs as you should not show your pearls to such people. The humanity's greatest treasure is Jesus' promise of eternal salvation. We, therefore, must try our best to live and fulfill the purpose as believers in Christ. It is written in the Bible that Christians should not even eat with the one who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler. Again, if you are not with Jesus, then you are against him. In the day of judgment, such "brothers of faith" will be the ones who will make blatant claims before the Lord of Creation that they are the righteous ones in the name of the Lord Almighty. Our Lord then shall make them weep by burning off their lies to show their true nature as murders, the children of vipers. Paul said in the past that Christians should be one in Christ, but among Christians, there will be various ways of showing worship to the Lord Almighty. If everything is set in accordance to the faith in the Jesus Christ and God alone, then different paths of showing worship to the Lord can be justified. Just because the hand of a person is different from the head of a person, would you cut it off by saying that the hand is not of the person? Just as the hand serves a different function from the head, feet, and other parts of the body shall function differently but under one purpose.

"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" {Matthew 7:22 (ESV)}

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one." {1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)}

You are right to a point.
But it is not up to you or me to judge but to Christ.
It is not up to you or me to say who are the pigs and who are the angels but to the great Judge: Jesus Christ.
The ones who you say are Satan, they say that they are with Christ. Who are you or me to say otherwise?
In every denomination there are drunks, immoral people and sinners. No Denomination is immune to it.
You cannot say of Protestant Denominations they are Satan.

 

[Root of Jesse]

BTW, if we are comparing Reformation-era personalities with the RCC's crusades and inquisitions, not only did the latter kill many more people (both the innocent and those guilty of something), but the Spanish Inquisition was in effect until 1832. I suspect that most people think of it as some Medieval thing.

Yes, but you're comparing wartime with peacetime, which is apples to oranges. But the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition did not kill very many people.

There's no proof for any number, but the median number of killed combined for all the Crusades, on both sides is 3 million. As for the Inquisition, over 500 years, there were a few thousand killed, and most of those were killed by secular authorities.

What I don't understand is your horror that there would be a judicial system in the Catholic Church? Or that Christians would try to protect their own from the maurauding Muslims.

 

[Root of Jesse]

OK, I'll start a thread, and in the first post I'll explain what it is and how it comes out of this thread. There are a lot of verses from Scripture on what Scripture is -- so I'll make a series of posts, just one here and there from time to time probably, just setting out different verses, but probably with some minimal comment on what they say.

So the verses represent what Protestants believe on Scripture alone being authority and how Scripture has power. From your side, what I would like is, statements from the Catholic church which represent why Catholics believe Holy Tradition is authority and can be placed above Scripture. I'm not sure if Catholics maintain that Holy Tradition promises spiritual power in the believer's life, but if it does, please set out statements on this aspect as well.

The idea is not really to debate, but to just have the statements which form the basis of the two positions set out and beside each other. A debate will accomplish nothing, but if people can see the basis of the two sides, it will help them at least to understand the real difference between the two groups, and they can have their own debate within their own minds on what is best to believe. I think this approach will actually accomplish more than a debate. But the emphasis is on increasing understanding of each side.

OK -- for rules, I would like to ask that we try to be nice to each other, no jokes about the other positions, only minimal debate and only on a peripheral issue (like what does the verse really mean), and just basically dignified and respectful posting.

So -- give me a little time, and I'll start a thread, and then I'll send you a message to look for it.

Can I come?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Then it would help to state the purpose of your statement, if you don't want to appear 'muslim friendly'...

 

[blackstrawberry]

You are right to a point.
But it is not up to you or me to judge but to Christ.
It is not up to you or me to say who are the pigs and who are the angels but to the great Judge: Jesus Christ.
The ones who you say are Satan, they say that they are with Christ. Who are you or me to say otherwise?
In every denomination there are drunks, immoral people and sinners. No Denomination is immune to it.
You cannot say of Protestant Denominations they are Satan.

Yes, the ultimate judge is Jesus and Jesus alone. I am here, not to criticize, but to point out the fact that the solidity of determining who is with Christ and who is not is already in our possession and that no further histories, rituals, and etc. would be necessary. Not all Protestants are with Jesus; that's true. I see many distressing issues around the globe that which involves those who call themselves the believers in Christ and I am speechless at what they truly do. I am not trying to say that such matters can simply be solved with a breathe of a statement: one denomination is wrong and the other is perfectly in communion with Christ. What I am trying to point my fingers at, however, is people should invite the Holy Spirit into their hearts, to open their eyes, to look for the truth in God, and not what other men tells them to do.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Yes, but you're comparing wartime with peacetime, which is apples to oranges. But the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition did not kill very many people.

There's no proof for any number, but the median number of killed combined for all the Crusades, on both sides is 3 million. As for the Inquisition, over 500 years, there were a few thousand killed, and most of those were killed by secular authorities.

What I don't understand is your horror that there would be a judicial system in the Catholic Church? Or that Christians would try to protect their own from the maurauding Muslims.

The Catholics have a right to defend themselves. Ireland and North Ireland are a case study. Democracy dictates that Protestant rule in Northern Ireland, the UK does not budge over past conquests in Ireland, so what can the Catholics do? They have had 500 years of patience.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Yes, the ultimate judge is Jesus and Jesus alone. I am here, not to criticize, but to point out the fact that the solidity of determining who is with Christ and who is not is already in our possession and that no further histories, rituals, and etc. would be necessary. Not all Protestants are with Jesus; that's true. I see many distressing issues around the globe that which involves those who call themselves the believers in Christ and I am speechless at what they truly do. I am not trying to say that such matters can simply be solved with a breathe of a statement: one denomination is wrong and the other is perfectly in communion with Christ. What I am trying to point my fingers at, however, is people should invite the Holy Spirit into their hearts, to open their eyes, to look for the truth in God, and not what other men tells them to do.

 

[Albion]

Yes, but you're comparing wartime with peacetime, which is apples to oranges. But the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition did not kill very many people.

You really should be ashamed to be peddaling that old nonsense.

Or that Christians would try to protect their own from the maurauding Muslims.

Apparently real history isn't of any concern to you. The Europeans started the Crusades. They thought the Holy Lands belonged to us, not to them, but they launched the first Crusade against the Muslims and most of the following ones. Of course they lost in the end, but the indiscriminant killing of Jews and Orthodox Christians along the way is nothing to be proud of, even if you think, as you do, that the Muslims "had it coming."'

 

[Root of Jesse]

You really should be ashamed to be peddaling that old nonsense.



Apparently real history isn't of any concern to you. The Europeans started the Crusades. They thought the Holy Lands belonged to us, not to them, but they launched the first Crusade against the Muslims and most of the following ones. Of course they lost in the end, but the indiscriminant killing of Jews and Orthodox Christians along the way is nothing to be proud of, even if you think, as you do, that the Muslims "had it coming."'

Feel free to set me straight on my errors.

And in reality, the Holy Land did belong to us. We had Christians living there. And government set up there. Christians were in peril from Muslims invading. (Note: an invasion is when you take land that wasn't yours to begin with.) Christianity was born in the Holy Land. The first Christians lived there. The European Christians visited there, including Jerome, who lived and worked in Jerusalem, and his mother St. Helena.
I haven't denied that Europe started the Crusades, but it was in reaction to what was happening. It was not unprovoked. Regarding "indiscriminate killing", you'll have to take that to the bathroom where it belongs. Those soldiers commissioned by the Church to rescue the Holy Land seem to have forgotten their mission as they got further and further from home. They didn't kill Jews or anyone else other than the Muslims at the behest of the Church. That wasn't the mission they were commissioned with. Had the Church sent them on their way with orders to rape, pillage and plunder anything that stands in your way, you might have a case.

The mission was to protect Christians on pilgrimage, to protect Christians who lived in Jerusalem, and to keep the land. A good idea taken to the wrong extreme.

On the other side of the fence, Islam was born where??? In Mecca, present day Saudi Arabia. When Mohammed died, he left nothing for his followers to go by. Being tribal in nature, they started invading anything they could, eventually occupying Spain for 700 years. Or are you going to tell me that was theirs, too?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Feel free to set me straight on my errors.

And in reality, the Holy Land did belong to us. We had Christians living there. And government set up there. Christians were in peril from Muslims invading. (Note: an invasion is when you take land that wasn't yours to begin with.) Christianity was born in the Holy Land. The first Christians lived there. The European Christians visited there, including Jerome, who lived and worked in Jerusalem, and his mother St. Helena.
I haven't denied that Europe started the Crusades, but it was in reaction to what was happening. It was not unprovoked. Regarding "indiscriminate killing", you'll have to take that to the bathroom where it belongs. Those soldiers commissioned by the Church to rescue the Holy Land seem to have forgotten their mission as they got further and further from home. They didn't kill Jews or anyone else other than the Muslims at the behest of the Church. That wasn't the mission they were commissioned with. Had the Church sent them on their way with orders to rape, pillage and plunder anything that stands in your way, you might have a case.

The mission was to protect Christians on pilgrimage, to protect Christians who lived in Jerusalem, and to keep the land. A good idea taken to the wrong extreme.

On the other side of the fence, Islam was born where??? In Mecca, present day Saudi Arabia. When Mohammed died, he left nothing for his followers to go by. Being tribal in nature, they started invading anything they could, eventually occupying Spain for 700 years. Or are you going to tell me that was theirs, too?

Albion's opinion is appalling. On which side is he? Does he know history or is it plainly bad will? I tend to the last choice...Sincerely...

 

[Albion]

Feel free to set me straight on my errors.

I believe that I did that. It's nothing personal, but we shouldn't alibi for the mistakes made in past centuries; all that's necessary is to say that all of us have moved along since those dark days.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I believe that I did that. It's nothing personal, but we shouldn't alibi for the mistakes made in past centuries; all that's necessary is to say that all of us have moved along since those dark days.

Nobody is trying to whitewash it. But it seems some like to make both things darker than they really were, and to blame it on the Church, which doesn't fly either. Certainly the Church gathered soldiers to go to the Holy Land to accomplish a task, but the soldiers and their leaders got easily sidetracked. That's not the Church's fault.

 

[Albion]

Nobody is trying to whitewash it.

Really?

But it seems some like to make both things darker than they really were, and to blame it on the Church, which doesn't fly either. Certainly the Church gathered soldiers to go to the Holy Land to accomplish a task, but the soldiers and their leaders got easily sidetracked. That's not the Church's fault.

Well, the Pope issued the original call for a Crusade and recruited warriors with the promise that if they were killed they'd be instantly taken to heaven. Does that count as having anything to do with it?

And the "soldiers and their leaders got easily sidetracked?" Please.