Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Pfaffenhofen]

Wow!!! I think my post has been misunderstood. I'm not throwing down the glove or making any kind of challenge. I'm just saying it would be interesting to contrast bible verses on what the bible is, to what the RCC upholds as the authority of Holy Tradition. There is no debate to it (unless I'm being naive somehow). It would just be a thread, where people could read what the bible says on its authority, and what the RCC says on the authority of Holy Tradition. Of course, the Catholics are going to say that what they post is irrefutable, and the Protestants will say that the bible verses confirm their position. No one will be convinced otherwise -- but it still would be interesting to see the two types of evidence in contrast.

I'm just guessing that you would have to use Catholic catechisms and official church statements on Holy Tradition as the proper representation of its authority. However, I'm also guessing that photos of Cathedrals, articles used in worship, noble clothes, and art work would also be a representation of the power and authority of Holy Tradition according to the RCC.

I can see why you might say someone else would be better at posting the RCC statements, as personally, I find their official statements difficult (I won't go into why, so as not to say something that could be considered biased). However, I think if you just ask a priest, he will be able to direct you to the catechisms and official statements. I'm not asking you to debate them, but just to set them out, so they can be contrasted to the posts I make quoting Scripture. However, we both might want to make clarifying statements on what we quote means.

Hmmm.... but if you think you really are not familiar enough with how the RCC states its position on the authority of Holy Tradition, then that's alright -- we can forget the idea. I know none of this is easy, and it takes a lot of time. However, then maybe I should start a thread with just quotes from the bible on the authority of the bible -- because that is the true basis of everything Protestant, and it would throw other threads into perspective.

I'll wait for your response before proceeding, and my posts might have to be made slowly, as I'm just very busy right now.

I am ready to post on Holy Tradition. No problem. I am familiar on how the RCC states its position on the subject. You suggest some points but I do not go on those directions. I just quotes, because some people are very good in quoting and are much better than me. I know the doctrine of the Church and develop through my own digestion and understanding of what the RCC says, reasoning my own way. Now, I reaffirm that I, as far as a Catholic goes, I am at ease with the Dogma, though I am not a specialist (University Teacher)

Now, I expect that I can try to seduce you with our position and you may do the same to me. Just put one own's position in sterile way is a bit academic. I always put my feelings into the doctrine, as I expect you to do...

I could not follow on the format of the discussion. I understood that is a thread on Scripture vs Tradition, is that so? Not a formal debate as stated by MarkRohfrietsch. If so, let's go ahead. You start, I will follow.

If it is another thing, please explain it for I could not understand black on white what the format is.

If you want to start something and then we define the rules, it is OK.

Anyhow, anything is OK for me: crazy talk over some beers or a combat with gloves.

Ready to follow you.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

John Knox's reformation in Scotland was not without a bit of strife either.

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Knox; he condemned kneeling for Communion because he felt it was idolatry; I just also noted pictures in the article of various statues of Knox... wondering if he would have considered these idolatry as well.

The question of kneeling is very interesting.
In the very old times, people would prostrate before the Emperor. Then, with times, changed into kneeling (it took less space in Church !!!). Now, in the RCC, there is the fashion of standing and bowing (chinese and japanese way).
In India, many masses are said indian way, sitting like indians do.
In Africa, the Mass is a Feast with songs all the way through.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

BTW, if we are comparing Reformation-era personalities with the RCC's crusades and inquisitions, not only did the latter kill many more people (both the innocent and those guilty of something), but the Spanish Inquisition was in effect until 1832. I suspect that most people think of it as some Medieval thing.

Crusades, Albion, Crusades? You mix Crusades with Inquisition? It is like mixing dessert with soup...
So, you are in favor of the Muslims? You preferred an Europe Muslim? It is sad...
The North of Africa was all christian when the Muslims swept and converted it to Islam through violence and the sword. Not a word mentioning it, Albion? Then, Gabral Taraik (Gibraltar) invaded the Peninsula and conquered 3/4 or Portugal and Spain....through the sword....The Muslims were finally stopped in Tours by the Crusader Charles Martel in 732. It looks you were in favor of the Muslims....
Then, the Crusaders Afonso Henriques in Portugal in 1139 in the Battle of Ourique (defeated 5 Muslim Kings according to the legend and though a miracle of God, so the legend goes and the cote d'armes of Portugal comes from that) and the Visigoth Kingdom with the Battle of Covadonga in Spain in 722, started the Reconquista. It was the Crusaders who made another time Spain and Portugal Christian but it seems you wanted those countries Muslim.

Later on, the poor Muslims victims of Christians tried to conquer Europe through the East and were defeated in the battle of Wien in 1529. Were not these late day Crusaders, Europe would be conquered by the East which seems to be what you wanted, Albion...

Thanks to God we had the Crusaders, and now, here, I pray to the memory of all those valiant warriors who gave their lives for a Christian Europe. The Muslims, usually, hate the Crusaders. For a cause...

There were brutalities made by the Crusaders in the East? I know of no war with brutality. Now, when no mention is done of the Muslim Brutalities, something smells bad.

Inquisition is stretched up to 1832. Why? I cannot follow the hidden reason for that.

If it was to say that Catholics sinned, I am ashamed that the biggest sin of Catholics and Protestant of those days is not mentioned.

There are sins and sins and some are more fashion than others.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Or, the Medieval age ended in 1832.

Lame Joke Drums - Rimshot (For use in forums) - YouTube

Some say that we are still in the middle ages.
You know, people in the Middle Ages did not know they were in the Middle Ages...nor they called themselves the Middle Age people.
In 1 000 000 years, how will people call the Middle Ages.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Yup. At the sailing club they call me "Captain Cool". I race hard, and I push what ever boat I'm racing hard; that means getting knocked down a few times a year. The "Cool" in the nick name comes from the fact that by the time the rescue or committee boat reaches me, I'm usually virtually dry, enjoying a smoke and a beer.

I love sailing!

You love sailing after or before the 4 beers ?
Just kidding, I know the answer ....
I was born in an island in the Indie and I love sailing and the sea, my boys surf...

 

[MPaul]

John Knox's reformation in Scotland was not without a bit of strife either.

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Knox; he condemned kneeling for Communion because he felt it was idolatry; I just also noted pictures in the article of various statues of Knox... wondering if he would have considered these idolatry as well.

When the Reformation first happened, Protestants debated whether other Christians should be condemned for their beliefs, as the Catholics did, or whether there should be toleration and freedom of conscience. Eventually, the toleration and freedom of conscience side won out -- and the basis of this position essentially became the theory of denominationalism.

For a good review of the debate, refer to From Tyndale to Madison: How the Death of an English Martyr Led to the American Bill of Rights, by Michael Farris, B & H Publishing Group, 2007. I think this book has a tendency to exaggerate the Baptist role in the debate, but it is still a very good view of what was going on, though it actually might be presented in many different ways.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You love sailing after or before the 4 beers ?
Just kidding, I know the answer ....

Maybe one before we go out; if the weather is not too wild, maybe a couple during the race; after... Well, you know!

I was born in an island in the Indie and I love sailing and the sea, my boys surf...

I never tried surfing, I really don't like being in the water. I'm looking out the window at snow, wishing I could be somewhere warm, the wind at about 20 knots; with the tiller in one hand and the main-sheet in the other... and a beer between my knees!

 

[MPaul]

I could not follow on the format of the discussion. I understood that is a thread on Scripture vs Tradition, is that so? Not a formal debate as stated by MarkRohfrietsch. If so, let's go ahead. You start, I will follow.

If it is another thing, please explain it for I could not understand black on white what the format is.

If you want to start something and then we define the rules, it is OK.

Anyhow, anything is OK for me: crazy talk over some beers or a combat with gloves.

Ready to follow you.

OK, I'll start a thread, and in the first post I'll explain what it is and how it comes out of this thread. There are a lot of verses from Scripture on what Scripture is -- so I'll make a series of posts, just one here and there from time to time probably, just setting out different verses, but probably with some minimal comment on what they say.

So the verses represent what Protestants believe on Scripture alone being authority and how Scripture has power. From your side, what I would like is, statements from the Catholic church which represent why Catholics believe Holy Tradition is authority and can be placed above Scripture. I'm not sure if Catholics maintain that Holy Tradition promises spiritual power in the believer's life, but if it does, please set out statements on this aspect as well.

The idea is not really to debate, but to just have the statements which form the basis of the two positions set out and beside each other. A debate will accomplish nothing, but if people can see the basis of the two sides, it will help them at least to understand the real difference between the two groups, and they can have their own debate within their own minds on what is best to believe. I think this approach will actually accomplish more than a debate. But the emphasis is on increasing understanding of each side.

OK -- for rules, I would like to ask that we try to be nice to each other, no jokes about the other positions, only minimal debate and only on a peripheral issue (like what does the verse really mean), and just basically dignified and respectful posting.

So -- give me a little time, and I'll start a thread, and then I'll send you a message to look for it.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

OK, I'll start a thread, and in the first post I'll explain what it is and how it comes out of this thread. There are a lot of verses from Scripture on what Scripture is -- so I'll make a series of posts, just one here and there from time to time probably, just setting out different verses, but probably with some minimal comment on what they say.

So the verses represent what Protestants believe on Scripture alone being authority and how Scripture has power. From your side, what I would like is, statements from the Catholic church which represent why Catholics believe Holy Tradition is authority and can be placed above Scripture. I'm not sure if Catholics maintain that Holy Tradition promises spiritual power in the believer's life, but if it does, please set out statements on this aspect as well.

The idea is not really to debate, but to just have the statements which form the basis of the two positions set out and beside each other. A debate will accomplish nothing, but if people can see the basis of the two sides, it will help them at least to understand the real difference between the two groups, and they can have their own debate within their own minds on what is best to believe. I think this approach will actually accomplish more than a debate. But the emphasis is on increasing understanding of each side.

OK -- for rules, I would like to ask that we try to be nice to each other, no jokes about the other positions, only minimal debate and only on a peripheral issue (like what does the verse really mean), and just basically dignified and respectful posting.

So -- give me a little time, and I'll start a thread, and then I'll send you a message to look for it.

Go ahead and lead the way. I am a good follower. When I work in groups, I always want to know who the leader is. If me, I give orders. If another person, I follow orders. I am following here.
I did not understand fully what you expect but I am good at correcting. So, let's start and correct me when I do not do what you are leading and i will correct.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Maybe one before we go out; if the weather is not too wild, maybe a couple during the race; after... Well, you know!

I never tried surfing, I really don't like being in the water. I'm looking out the window at snow, wishing I could be somewhere warm, the wind at about 20 knots; with the tiller in one hand and the main-sheet in the other... and a beer between my knees!

If I do not have what I want, please, God, make me want what I have !!!
What about skiing ?

 

[Albion]

Crusades, Albion, Crusades? You mix Crusades with Inquisition? It is like mixing dessert with soup...
So, you are in favor of the Muslims? You preferred an Europe Muslim? It is sad...
The North of Africa was all christian when the Muslims swept and converted it to Islam through violence and the sword. Not a word mentioning it, Albion? Then, Gabral Taraik (Gibraltar) invaded the Peninsula and conquered 3/4 or Portugal and Spain....through the sword....The Muslims were finally stopped in Tours by the Crusader Charles Martel in 732. It looks you were in favor of the Muslims....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The question of kneeling is very interesting.
In the very old times, people would prostrate before the Emperor. Then, with times, changed into kneeling (it took less space in Church !!!). Now, in the RCC, there is the fashion of standing and bowing (chinese and japanese way).
In India, many masses are said indian way, sitting like indians do.
In Africa, the Mass is a Feast with songs all the way through.

In most of our Churches, we still kneel at the rail to receive Communion and the host is usually received on the tongue, we also bow to the Altar when we enter the Chancel, and again when we leave it. Some of our Pastors genuflect at the consecration of both the bread and the wine. We also retain, in most of our Churches, the use of traditional vestments, and Gregorian Chant; many of our Churches have retained the use of the bells in the mass, a few use incense; our Mass retains the traditional "Ordinaries" as does Rome.

If I do not have what I want, please, God, make me want what I have !!!
What about skiing ?

...Well, the wife and I like Nordic cross-country skiing; we have snow, but this year, not enough even for that. My best friend is an avid snowmobiler; this year he has had none here, but just got back from a great trip north of the 49th. parallel; a 10 hour drive north of where we live. Screwy winter this year.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

I know you weren't of course. Just to make a strong point.
I tell you: the Muslims are always crying against the Crusades. But they forget to say that it was them you started it.
Some modern Muslim Thinkers say straight forward that it is a time for the Muslims to stop crying and start doing something about them, their culture, their backward science and philosophy and their religion which does not face the modern world. Amazingly, Islam is not translated, people all over the world say it without understanding it and they do not face the discoverings of science.
I know you, Albion, and knew that I could take a chance of being a little stronger, but I expect you to believe that I never believed that you would ever be in favor of Muslim point of view.
Just between men !!!!

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

In most of our Churches, we still kneel at the rail to receive Communion and the host is usually received on the tongue, we also bow to the Altar when we enter the Chancel, and again when we leave it. Some of our Pastors genuflect at the consecration of both the bread and the wine. We also retain, in most of our Churches, the use of traditional vestments, and Gregorian Chant; many of our Churches have retained the use of the bells in the mass, a few use incense; our Mass retains the traditional "Ordinaries" as does Rome.



...Well, the wife and I like Nordic cross-country skiing; we have snow, but this year, not enough even for that. My best friend is an avid snowmobiler; this year he has had none here, but just got back from a great trip north of the 49th. parallel; a 10 hour drive north of where we live. Screwy winter this year.

I love rituals.
The Catholic Mass lost a bit of ritual but gained in other more important points, like the translation into native languages. But new rituals are coming.
In Holand, the have canals that go all around the country and freeze in winter and they have got races of 100 km.
I have got a Latvia friend of mine who does Nordic skiing and she says it is lovely to feel the air outside and the head inside your body. But two other friends from Lithuania are too lazy to do sports...
This winter has been something...

 

[MPaul]

Go ahead and lead the way. I am a good follower. When I work in groups, I always want to know who the leader is. If me, I give orders. If another person, I follow orders. I am following here.
I did not understand fully what you expect but I am good at correcting. So, let's start and correct me when I do not do what you are leading and i will correct.

My Gosh -- now I have a bad cold or something. I'll start the thread, but it might be a day or two. At the start I'll explain what it is.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

My Gosh -- now I have a bad cold or something. I'll start the thread, but it might be a day or two. At the start I'll explain what it is.

Take your time and ... a good sirloin, a good mantel and a good whiskey....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I love rituals.
The Catholic Mass lost a bit of ritual but gained in other more important points, like the translation into native languages. But new rituals are coming.

Our Mass has much more in common with the Extraordinary Rite than with the English Novis Ordo. I have seen the new translation of the Catholic Mass (either in use now, or being implemented shortly) and read through the Rubrics for it; I see it as a "restoration" rather than an innovation, I'm impressed!

In Holand, the have canals that go all around the country and freeze in winter and they have got races of 100 km.
I have got a Latvia friend of mine who does Nordic skiing and she says it is lovely to feel the air outside and the head inside your body. But two other friends from Lithuania are too lazy to do sports...
This winter has been something...

100 km would be a little ambitious for us, 5-10 is good though.

I've known a number of Latvians over the years, we even had a Latvian Pastor for some time; great pastor, and he remains a good friend. They seem to be be a very happy race, with a very funny and off the wall sense of humour!

My Gosh -- now I have a bad cold or something. I'll start the thread, but it might be a day or two. At the start I'll explain what it is.

Take your time and ... a good sirloin, a good mantel and a good whiskey....

One of our retired Bishops was celebrating Mass in our Church a few years back when our Pastor was on vacation. I had a bad cold, and he said to me "Mark, you're not drinking enough whisky!"

 

[blackstrawberry]

Okay, I will start off with a hint of review here. First of all, remind yourselves with a solid fact that there's no such status as "fake-christian." Just as the darkness is a state in which the light does not exist within an enclosed space, a person can either be a Christian or non-believer. Next, it's true that the bond between God and men were once severed in the past. Thanks to Jesus, who became the ransom for our sins, however, no being could possibly take away a believer from his hand. Lastly, if you believe in Christ, then you are a Christian. Some may say things like, "No, you are not a Christian, at least not yet. You need to receive the Holy Spirit. You need to receive baptism. You need to do this, that...," and the list goes on. The Holy Spirit guides a person to Jesus and that person ultimately becomes a believer in Christ through his faith in Jesus, which means that you can only be a Christian after you have received the Holy Spirit in your heart. The Holy Spirit resides within the heart of a Christian forever.


Who then is not the rightful heir to the promise of Jesus?

-Any being who says there's other requirements to be fulfilled/ways of salvation other than the faith in Jesus Christ. (To be saved.)

-Any being who denies the concept of Trinity.

-Any being who denies the Holy Spirit's status as the Counselor sent by God to fill the place left behind by Jesus Christ and to guide lost sheep back to God.

-Any being who does not possess the Holy Spirit in their heart.

-Any being/church/group/cult that puts the worth of any form of need for an attainment of spiritual gifts, practices, rituals, and etc. over the faith in Jesus Christ.

If the practices of your church corresponds with one or more of what's been stated above, then your church is not in communion with Christ. Good tree bears good fruit and bad tree bears rotten fruit. No work of man can compensate for his sins, but his faith in Jesus can. Once you become a believer, the Holy Spirit in your heart will compel you to do deeds that are favorable in the eyes of God. Works are not something you need to force yourselves to do. In doing so, you will only drown yourselves in confusion. Your faith can be proven by your fruits. The fruits of your faith are reflected in your works. If your body have truly become the temple for the Holy Spirit and the Spirit dwells in you, then your works will truly be great. To be born again, you, therefore, must receive the Holy Spirit. Some say that you need something of an extra to be saved, as the bible says not everyone will be saved. That's blatantly wrong. Jesus said he shall not turn away anyone who seeks him. Those who are to be condemned are walking the path other than that of a Christian. Anyone who is not with Jesus is against him and those who fail to see the truth are under the influence of the prince of the air, Satan. Check and see the numbers of sects/denominations/types of churches that claim themselves to be the genuine church of Christ with practices that correspond with the things I've stated on the list above. The numbers should be overwhelming in comparison to the numbers of believers who have kept their faith in Christ. If a spirit tells you that Jesus is from God in a literal sense and does not follow one or more things that are stated here, then that spirit is not the Holy Spirit. If one truly puts his faith in Jesus, then how can he/she/it confess otherwise? Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong? Don't let yourselves be the decider, let God be the decider of your fates.

Proof:

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," {1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV)}

"Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says 'Jesus is accursed!' and no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit." {1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)}

{Galatians 5:22–23 (ESV)}

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." {Galatians 5:22–23 (ESV)}

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." {Romans 8:9 (ESV)}

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." {Ephesians 1:13–14 (ESV)}

"and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." {1 John 4:3 (ESV)}

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." {John 6:44 (ESV)}

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." {John 14:6 (ESV)}

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." {2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV)}

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." {2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV)}

"So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit." {Matthew 7:17 (ESV)}

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." {Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)}

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” {Revelation 22:13 (ESV)}

"And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." {Revelation 21:6 (ESV)}

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Our Mass has much more in common with the Extraordinary Rite than with the English Novis Ordo. I have seen the new translation of the Catholic Mass (either in use now, or being implemented shortly) and read through the Rubrics for it; I see it as a "restoration" rather than an innovation, I'm impressed!



100 km would be a little ambitious for us, 5-10 is good though.

I've known a number of Latvians over the years, we even had a Latvian Pastor for some time; great pastor, and he remains a good friend. They seem to be be a very happy race, with a very funny and off the wall sense of humour!





One of our retired Bishops was celebrating Mass in our Church a few years back when our Pastor was on vacation. I had a bad cold, and he said to me "Mark, you're not drinking enough whisky!"

You know Latvians, you should know this, if you do not know yet:
Song wars - „You Won't Believe It Until You See It" - YouTube
Incredible mass singing - Latvian Song festival - YouTube
X Dziesmu svētki - Mana dziesma - YouTube

and others you see on the right sides.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You know Latvians, you should know this, if you do not know yet:
Song wars - „You Won't Believe It Until You See It" - YouTube
Incredible mass singing - Latvian Song festival - YouTube
X Dziesmu svētki - Mana dziesma - YouTube

and others you see on the right sides.

Wow! I new they liked to sing, but I had no idea that they liked it so much.

BTW, I buy these tiny little smoked fish in a tin called Sprats (zelts) in Oil, Riga Gold brand, from Latvia; they are just about the tastiest thing in the whole world!