Was the OT totally in reference to God the Father?

Andrewn

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Like the movie The Passion of the Christ. This movie showed horrific scenes of a bloody beaten Jesus and then it ended with no resurrection! That movie is horrible in that it stops before the best part!

You should have seen how mad I got when I watched all that and was waiting to see how they would glorify the Resurrection Hollywood style and then it ended. I sent a nasty letter to Mel Gibson even!
1) "The Passion of the Christ" does show the Christ's Resurrection in its final shot.

2) Part 2, the sequel detailing the Resurrection, is scheduled for release in 2022.

3) Your attitude regarding the crucifix is not unique, Protestants generally prefer to show only the cross rather than the crucifix.

That is why I do not celebrate Easter, or Passover. I celebrate Ascension Day, which is 40 days after Passover.
Christians go to church every Sunday to celebrate Resurrection Day.

 
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Andrewn

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I do see a confusion in your position however; you readily accept the correct, Orthodox view of Theopaschitism, yet for some reason you seem to struggle with the idea that the Word of God and Jesus Christ are one person.
The Word of God and Jesus Christ are one person after the incarnation. They could only be one person before the incarnation if he time-travelled to the past, or if we're talking figuratively. I guess this is possible.

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son and Word of God. He is one person, with one hypostasis, in which are united without change, confusion or separation the uncreated divine nature and the created human nature.
All this is true because of the incarnation. I really think we're talking semantics rather than theology and hate to be argumentative. I'm a scientist, not a pastor, and prefer precise rather than figurative language as much as language allows. Note that in post #64, that we agree about, the Son of God is called Jesus only after the incarnation.

there never was a time when the Son was not; or as the Creed expresses it, our Lord was begotten of the Father before all ages.
True, and this is the difference between Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals.

the concept of a period of time between when the Father begat the Son and His incarnation is actually meaningless, because He is begotten “before all worlds”, there being no time without Him, and therefore such a duration is theologically analogous to division by zero in that meaning cannot attach to it conceptually,
Are you saying that, before the incarnation, the Son of God did not exist in the time and space that He created?

and the writings of St. Athanasius and other fathers; in particular, what St. Athanasius wrote in his book On the Incarnation.
I love this book and have read it and reread it several times, hopefully with more insight in every reading.
 
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Andrewn

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I see. Thank you for clarifying. What is their difference in belief? I mean what makes an Anglican different from a Protestant?

Are you serious right now? 30,000??? What does that say about us? Wow. I had no idea.
Yes, there are probably over 30,000 denominations in the USA plus a lot of non-denominational churches. I don't know what kind of church you attend.

You hear a lot in this thread and in generally in these Christian Forums about Eastern Orthodox. They have wonderful theology but regular attendees of EO churches in the USA are only 210,864.

For practical reasons, I classify the more active groups into:

1) Roman Catholics: They follow the Pope of Rome.

2) Traditional Protestants: Lutherans and Anglicans / Episcopalians are included in this group.

3) Credobaptists: Do not practice infant baptism and refer to themselves as Evangelicals. They include Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, there are probably over 30,000 denominations in the USA plus a lot of non-denominational churches. I don't know what kind of church you attend.

You hear a lot in this thread and in generally in these Christian Forums about Eastern Orthodox. They have wonderful theology but regular attendees of EO churches in the USA are only 210,864.

For practical reasons, I classify the more active groups into:

1) Roman Catholics: They follow the Pope of Rome.

2) Traditional Protestants: Lutherans and Anglicans / Episcopalians are included in this group.

3) Credobaptists: Do not practice infant baptism and refer to themselves as Evangelicals. They include Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Church of the East, may be small, but they are growing, both through frustrated mainline Protestant Christians switching denominations and also owing to reproduction; this varies from church to church but some of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches are full of children. The Antiochian EO church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Coptic OO churches in particular have in many parishes astonishing numbers of children. This is also true, interestingly enough, about some Continuing Anglican churches and also in my experience, canonical diocesan Traditional Latin Mass parishes, which have become very common since Summorum Pontificum. Conversely, the demographic decline even in traditional parishes of the Episcopal Church, the ELCA, the Methodists, the UCC, of which I have some experience, and also I would note, Greek Orthodox parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate and a very large number of ordinary Novus Ordo Missae Roman Catholic parishes is depressing. I keep a close eye on Pew Research reports and also, in a less scientific manner, routinely take a look at parishes in my local area to see how they are doing; I find the size and activity of the youth group and peak Sunday attendance to be relevant, and the parishioners will generally tell you if their parish is contracting as it is a point of sadness.

And by the way, I am extremely frustrated by the contraction of the mainline Protestant churches. If everyone who was leaving them was heading to the Orthodox churches or the Continuing Anglican Churches or the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, or the Traditional Latin Mass, I would not be concerned, but the non-denominational megachurches, especially the Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland variety, as well as the non-traditional fundamentalist Baptist and Calvinist churches which put extreme influence on Church Discipline, such as 9 Marks parishes, of which Mark Driscoll was a huge influence, I view as being toxic. In a few cases, this can cut across denominational lines; I absolutely loved Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church during the era of Dr. Kennedy, but his successor, who was so cruel to the late pastor’s daughter, and had to resign in a sex scandal, ruined it in many ways including dismantling its very successful media presence and its celebrated classical music program.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, there are probably over 30,000 denominations in the USA plus a lot of non-denominational churches. I don't know what kind of church you attend.

You hear a lot in this thread and in generally in these Christian Forums about Eastern Orthodox. They have wonderful theology but regular attendees of EO churches in the USA are only 210,864.

For practical reasons, I classify the more active groups into:

1) Roman Catholics: They follow the Pope of Rome.

2) Traditional Protestants: Lutherans and Anglicans / Episcopalians are included in this group.

3) Credobaptists: Do not practice infant baptism and refer to themselves as Evangelicals. They include Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.

By the way, among your groupings, you are making some assumptions about Evangelicals, because a great many actually do practice infant baptism, and you ignore non traditional Calvinist churches, such as those associated with 9 Marks. And you’ve also left out a number of subgroups.

Please don’t read this as being overcritical (I really liked your post as I am interested heavily in denominational identity, ecclesiology, the taxonomy of Christian churches, and related points you touched on, and I rated it a winner), but rather, as a scientist, you’re used to peer review; I am proposing that in your classification scheme, of the Protestants who cannot be called Traditional, not all of them are Credobaptists. And I would further argue that some Credobaptists meet certain criteria to where I would call them Traditional, specifically, some of the more historic Baptist churches, which have been in the US since the 17th century, and I would assume Canada as well (I am not familiar with the history of Canada in terms of Non Conformists who rejected the Church of England, other than a hundred years ago Toronto had a reputation as being Methodist Rome, which is ironic because owing to the formation of the United Church of Canada there isn’t at present a specifically Methodist denomination, although I would be interested to know how much influence Wesleyan theology and the denominational norms of Methodism had on the United Church of Canada).
 
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Thomas White

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I will never glorify that man's suffering. Ever. He did it for us, and as beautiful as that reality is, the suffering He endured on that cross by carrying the weight of our sins on Him and to be rejected and discarded by His Father, who saw Him as filthy, disgusting, full of our sin and loathe some, to go to His grave like that breaks my heart. Of course He rose because hell could not keep Him, but before that He felt the pain of abandonment plus the physical torture of crucifixion. I cannot glorify that. He was humiliated and degraded and all He did was love and forgive them.

The Father did not reject the Son. He did not abandon or discard Him.
 
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Thomas White

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I see. Thank you for clarifying. What is their difference in belief? I mean what makes an Anglican different from a Protestant?

Anglicans are one of the original Protestant groups. There is a vast array of differences that distinguish the various Protestant groups from one another.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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So if that is what you mean by Apocrypha, they are well worth reading, especially Sirach. It is filled with common sense moral advice that everyone could learn from. What Greeks have traditionally referred to as Apocrypha are not those extra books in the Septuagint but refers to spurious works that are usually heretical, so it is important that the correct understanding of the term is used.

TL;DR - A Greek translation of the Hebrew books included some books not found in Hebrew, called the Apocrypha was used by most Jewish settlements outside of Judea. This was the main source of Scriptures for Greek speaking converts to Judaism who now converted to Christianity. They are considered part of the canon of the early Church but are not used for doctrine.

Just to expand a bit on what Prodromos (btw, have a blessed Meatfare Sunday!) said on the Apocrypha. To understand where these books come from we have to go back a few centuries before Christ.

During the 300s BC, Alexander the Great conquered a huge swath of land that ranged from Greece and Egypt to India. This resulted in Greek become the main language of the Mediterranean which included Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey and even into parts of what make up Iraq and Iran.

Somewhere around 250BC, a group of Egyptian Jews were asked to translate the Jewish Hebrew into Greek. Now there are some legends that 6 scholars from each of the 12 tribes for a total of 72 (hence the name Septuagint or The Seventy), each separately translated the Torah and all the copies where the same, so this was considered a miracle. Within another 100 years or so, the rest of the Hebrew texts were translated. Along the way, other books that did not have corresponding Hebrew texts also were grouped with these Greek texts. These include Tobit, Sirach, and the rest of the Apocrypha, which in Greek means "hidden", which is not the best description.

As the Jews began to migrate and become a part of the Roman Republic and Empire, these Greek translations were the main versions that everyone read, outside of Judea. Even educated Romans spoke Greek and the Romans respected the Jews cultural identity primarily because the Jews were seen as an ancient people. Hence Jews were permitted some things such as not sacrificing to the Greek and Roman gods and were left alone when it came to religious practices (well, for the most part). One interesting thing that we see is that Jews accepted converts outside of the traditional tribes of Israel. For example, there is the Roman centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant. So these converts would not have spoken Hebrew as a native language and certainly not outside of Judea. So for them, the Scriptures they would have known was the Septuagint. This is the fertile ground that Paul spent his missionary years growing and where we get the Jewish vs Gentile disputes that Paul writes about in his letters. So a lot of the converts to early Christianity were not Hebrew speaking Jews but rather Greek speaking converts to Judaism who are now converting once again to Christianity.

As Christianity and Pharisaical Judaism began to split, the rabbis by the end of the first century were rejecting the Greek translation and focused solely on the original Hebrew for what we now know as rabbinical Judaism.

However, within Christianity, the books that were to make up the canonical Scriptures were under debate. Should the Greek translation or the original Hebrew be the source of the Old Testament? We do see that even in Hebrew Judea, there were Greek influences such as “The Festival of Dedication then took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in Solomon’s portico” (John 10:22-23). This is the Jewish festival that we know as Hanukkah, which is describe NOT in any Hebrew text but in both First and Second Maccabees, which is found only in the Greek texts. As a result, there's sort of a compromise. The Greek only books are considered canonical but have a secondary status.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I see. Thank you for clarifying. What is their difference in belief? I mean what makes an Anglican different from a Protestant?

IMHO, I tend to label church families under a few broad groups and I'm not about to try to name too many individual churches

Apostolic (churches that trace their bishops back to the Apostles) - Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox - the most hierarchical, sacramental and liturgical worship aka Bells and Smells

Magisterial Reformation (Reforms from Roman Catholic church that were fairly moderate, have their origins in the 16th or 17th centuries) - Anglican (known in the US as the Episcopal Church), Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist - still recognize two sacraments (Lord's Supper and Baptism), can be liturgical and somewhat organized in a loose hierarchy or at least organized

Radical Reformation (these are reformers that tossed out anything that might be considered "Catholic") - Mennonite, Amish, Congregational, Baptist - ordinances rather than sacraments, joined together in loose confederations

American Reformation (histories begin with various "Great Awakenings" in the United States in the 17-19 centuries) - Pentecostal, Holiness, Assembly of God, Nazarene. Seventh Day Adventists

New Christian Movements (these break from what is considered Nicene Christianity) - Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saints, Oneness Pentecostal
 
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Jaxxi

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1) "The Passion of the Christ" does show the Christ's Resurrection in its final shot.

2) Part 2, the sequel detailing the Resurrection, is scheduled for release in 2022.

3) Your attitude regarding the crucifix is not unique, Protestants generally prefer to show only the cross rather than the crucifix.


Christians go to church every Sunday to celebrate Resurrection Day.

Christians should have never given up the Sabbath because Jesus wouldn't have wanted them to. The Lord is very clear to keep the Sabbath and changing it because men wanted to make it a new tradition is not right.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, following the tradition of men according to the rudiments of the world, and not in accordance with Christ. Colossians 2:8

And He said unto them, “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:9

Would Jesus have gone to church on Sunday? Do you think He wants us disobeying God's commandment in His name? I hardly think so, but I have no way of knowing that. The Resurrection and the Ascension are 2 different things.
 
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Jaxxi

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IMHO, I tend to label church families under a few broad groups and I'm not about to try to name too many individual churches

Apostolic (churches that trace their bishops back to the Apostles) - Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox - the most hierarchical, sacramental and liturgical worship aka Bells and Smells

Magisterial Reformation (Rs from Roman Catholic church that were fairly moderate, have their origins in the 16th or 17th centuries) - Anglican (known in the US as the Episcopal Church), Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist - still recognize two sacraments (Lord's Supper and Baptism), can be liturgical and somewhat organized in a loose hierarchy or at least organized

Radical Reformation (these are reformers that tossed out anything that might be considered "Catholic") - Mennonite, Amish, Congregational, Baptist - ordinances rather than sacraments, joined together in loose confederations

American Reformation (histories begin with various "Great Awakenings" in the United States in the 17-19 centuries) - Pentecostal, Holiness, Assembly of God, Nazarene. Seventh Day Adventists

New Christian Movements (these break from what is considered Nicene Christianity) - Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saints, Oneness Pentecostal
Do you think all these matter to God? What church would Jesus have joined? Hierarchy? Does the Bible instruct us to have a Hierarchy in the church?: I think there is too much division in the church, and either you are for Christ, and His teachings or you aren't. There is no reason to make it more complicated than it is and by being so nitpicky about every little thing just brings more judgement on men by other men who strangely enough are all sinners. It would be different if any of their leaders were perfect people who had never sinned but that is not the case therefore I have trouble taking them and their hierarchy too serious. No offense.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Do you think all these matter to God? What church would Jesus have joined? Hierarchy? Does the Bible instruct us to have a Hierarchy in the church?: I think there is too much division in the church, and either you are for Christ, and His teachings or you aren't. There is no reason to make it more complicated than it is and by being so nitpicky about every little thing just brings more judgement on men by other men who strangely enough are all sinners. It would be different if any of their leaders were perfect people who had never sinned but that is not the case therefore I have trouble taking them and their hierarchy too serious. No offense.


And that's why we do have several thousand churches...

So for example, the largest Baptist group, the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845 because it supported slavery.
 
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Thomas White

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Do you think all these matter to God? What church would Jesus have joined? Hierarchy? Does the Bible instruct us to have a Hierarchy in the church?: I think there is too much division in the church, and either you are for Christ, and His teachings or you aren't. There is no reason to make it more complicated than it is and by being so nitpicky about every little thing just brings more judgement on men by other men who strangely enough are all sinners. It would be different if any of their leaders were perfect people who had never sinned but that is not the case therefore I have trouble taking them and their hierarchy too serious. No offense.

Your view, my view, and all the other differing views is why we have so many denominations. For many centuries, it was only the Catholic Church. Then the Church splintered. Then the splinter groups splintered. The splintering continues because we would rather argue and criticize one another rather than worrying about our own relationship with Christ. It's not that we forgot the Bible. Instead, we forgot to love one another.
 
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Andrewn

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Christians should have never given up the Sabbath because Jesus wouldn't have wanted them to. The Lord is very clear to keep the Sabbath and changing it because men wanted to make it a new tradition is not right.
This is a big discussion and I will present my view as concisely as possible:

1) The Sabbath was created for man: to have at least one day-a-week to rest, worship, and have fellowship with friends and family. This is important for everyone and neglecting it has psychological and physical consequences.

2) In the West, most people have Sa & Su off, so we can have 2 days of rest.

3) Historically, Christians from earliest times worshipped on Sundays as a celebration of Jesus' Resurrection. (Acts 20:7)

4) Jesus gave the Church authority to make laws:

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

5) The Church initially exercised this privileges in the Jerusalem Council described in Acts 15, where circumcision and diet regulations were not required of new believers.

6) Following this example most Church catechisms have interpreted the rest commandment to apply to Sunday.

7) Again, if one is able to rest on both Sa & Su that would be great. (I repeat this for emphasis.) Even non-Christians need to have at least 1 day a week for family.

8) In other countries, the weekend may be Fr & Sa for example, as it is the case in the Middle East, this should be totally acceptable to satisfy God's command even though most Christians may have to work on Sunday.
 
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Do you think all these matter to God? What church would Jesus have joined? Hierarchy? Does the Bible instruct us to have a Hierarchy in the church?: I think there is too much division in the church, and either you are for Christ, and His teachings or you aren't. There is no reason to make it more complicated than it is and by being so nitpicky about every little thing just brings more judgement on men by other men who strangely enough are all sinners. It would be different if any of their leaders were perfect people who had never sinned but that is not the case therefore I have trouble taking them and their hierarchy too serious. No offense.

So @Jaxxi if I were you, I would approach this question the other way; tracing back the history of the early Church, which modern churches today would Jesus be most horrified by? Recall in Revelations the pastoral concern he expressed for several local churches, some of which had serious problems. Some of the churches our Lord addressed in Revelations, and the Apostle Paul wrote to in his epistles, still exist; others do not. For example, the local church of Corinth despite all its problems miraculously managed to survive; the church at Ephesus was exterminated by the Turks in the genocide of 1915, although Christian pilgrims still visit the town.

The early church did not have denominations; there was just one unified church, which is mentioned in the Creed as the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” Note in this context Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic but rather “according to the whole”, meaning the entire church preaching the entire doctrine; and despite the Roman Catholic Church attempting to monopolize the word Catholic, that never happened, and Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Moravian and Assyrian Christians are among those who self-identify as Catholic. The denominations resulted from schisms which started in the fifth century, when Pope Leo I meddled in the affairs of the Eastern church; then in the eleventh century Pope Leo IX excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople for refusing to agree with the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, and then in the 15th century, the Roman Catholic Church ignored the complaints of Czech Orthodox Christians who had been forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism, and in the 16th century Pope Leo X ignored the complaints of Martin Luther. However, not all the schisms were caused by the Roman Catholic Church, and in several cases I believe we can say the Roman church acted correctly, for example, the initial event that led to the creation of the Church of England, that being Henry VIII’s desire for divorce and remarriage, was not shall we say morally impressive.

But God moved in mysterious ways. The Church of England managed to accomplish a number of things that the Roman Church has unsuccessfully tried to do repeatedly, for example, get people to attend Morning and Evening Prayer in addition to the Holy Communion service. The Roman Catholic Church for its part did admirably reform itself, and in my opinion is one of the better churches today, particularly when one considers its massive charitable operations which do save many lives in some of the poorest countries, and which unlike secular charities such as Goodwill and the Red Cross, are largely run by unpaid celibate monks and nuns (whereas Goodwill and the International Red Cross have had several controversies about how massively overpaid their executives are; in 2013, the lowest paid Goodwill employee in the US, a disabled woman, made $1.13/hr, which I thought was illegal, while the total cost for executive salaries at Goodwill was $53 million).

The Episcopal Church USA also has some very good charitable operations, but I think our Lord is angry with some of their leaders, specifically those who did waste $45 million on legal fees suing conservative parishes and dioceses which wanted to leave because of the unbiblical teaching of the Episcopal Church on human sexuality (the Episcopal Church deviates from what our Lord and the Apostle Paul taught about homosexuality and gay marriage), in order to keep the real estate. And then there was a major scandal in Los Angeles because Bishop Bruno, who has resigned in shame, had apparently done some unethical side deals with real estate developers that would have personally benefitted him when the former conservative parishes, which inevitably closed after the traditional Christians were locked out, were sold; this specifically involved a parish the church was trying to sell that occupied prime waterfront real estate. But, to the credit of the Episcopal Church, they are starting to return towards Christ; people have been leaving them for traditionalist Anglican churches for decades, and I have a feeling things will get better under their new Presiding Bishop.

Now, as @GreekOrthodox mentioned, what is now the Southern Baptist Convention was originally formed over slavery, but they have repented of that, and while I disagree with them on doctrine, specifically, I believe infants should be baptized, the modern day SBC, along with the Roman Catholics, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the traditional Lutheran churches (but not the ELCA), and some other denominations, are a strong witness against the evils of abortion, euthanasia, the promotion of homosexuality and transsexuality to children, and other grievous offenses. Meanwhile, the denomination I resigned from for reasons of my conscience, the United Church of Christ, actively promotes these things!

The other thing to remember is that in recent decades, there has been considerable ecumenical rapprochement. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox have had very productive dialogues, recovering from the schism in the eleventh century caused by Pope Leo IX, and also the Roman Catholic Church has had even more productive dialogues with the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, which became separated from it and the Eastern Orthodox in the fifth century, and separately the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox in Egypt and Syria have become so close, they are basically, from the perspective of the laity, an extended family.
 
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Andrewn

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The early church did not have denominations; there was just one unified church, which is mentioned in the Creed as the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” . . . The denominations resulted from schisms which started in the fifth century,
When did denominationalism start? The answer depends on definition of the term. We may define denominations as "a church organization which does not allow communion / eucharist to Christians of another church organization with different theological beliefs." Based on this definition, one may conclude that denominationalism started in the 4th century rather than the 5th.

The Roman Catholic Church for its part did admirably reform itself, and in my opinion is one of the better churches today, particularly when one considers its massive charitable operations which do save many lives in some of the poorest countries,
Yes, and one has to remember that Roman Catholics established hospitals and schools in most cities in North America and around the world when these were absolutely needed. I think the Salvation Army does a great job in the charity field.

in 2013, the lowest paid Goodwill employee in the US, a disabled woman, made $1.13/hr, which I thought was illegal, while the total cost for executive salaries at Goodwill was $53 million).
This is terrible.

The Episcopal Church USA also has some very good charitable operations, but I think our Lord is angry with some of their leaders, specifically those who did waste $45 million on legal fees suing conservative parishes and dioceses which wanted to leave because of the unbiblical teaching of the Episcopal Church on human sexuality (the Episcopal Church deviates from what our Lord and the Apostle Paul taught about homosexuality and gay marriage), in order to keep the real estate.
The ordination of Gene Robinson, a practicing homosexual, as a bishop in New Hampshire caused a schism in the worldwide Anglican communion, especially in North America. However, I don't necessarily oppose the ordination of celibate homosexuals. Also, the ordination of women as bishops is an issue is a lot of people object to.

But, to the credit of the Episcopal Church, they are starting to return towards Christ; people have been leaving them for traditionalist Anglican churches for decades, and I have a feeling things will get better under their new Presiding Bishop.
I don't think all people who left joined traditionalist Anglican churches and a lot of work will need to be done if some of these people would return to Anglicanism.

the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox in Egypt and Syria have become so close, they are basically, from the perspective of the laity, an extended family.
Yes, and not only from the perspective of the laity. My understanding is that there is an excellent relationship between EO and OO pastors in the West (where they have more opportunity for interaction) and even at the top, there is an excellent relationship between the Patriarchs of Egypt and Russia, for example. But they do not celebrate mass together or share communion / eucharist.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Yes, and not only from the perspective of the laity. My understanding is that there is an excellent relationship between EO and OO pastors in the West and even at the top, there is an excellent relationship between the Patriarchs of Egypt and Russia, for example.

One interesting thing is that OO in the US do not have their own seminary so their students attend EO seminaries. One of my former classmates is very influential with the deaconess system within the OO and now teaches at Fordham University.
 
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The Liturgist

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When did denominationalism start? The answer depends on definition of the term. We may define denominations as "a church organization which does not allow communion / eucharist to Christians of another church organization with different theological beliefs." Based on this definition, one may conclude that denominationalism started in the 4th century rather than the 5th.

The reason why I date the start from the 5th century is I regard the Donatists, who did start in the 4th century, and the Novationists, who actually started I believe in the late 3rd century, as heretics, and the Arians as being non-Christian, whereas the Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and the Church of the East are all of similar faith to the point where Rome will let its members receive the Eucharist in all of the above. Of course in the fifth century Rome and the Eastern Orthodox were still in communion, although by the ninth century cracks were showing.

So, I can easily and comfortably regard Assyrians, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics and indeed Anglicans, Lutherans, Moravians, Methodists and traditional mainline liturgical churches in general as each representing a beautiful expression of Christianity, whereas in the case of Arianism and Manicheanism, these are different religions, while Donatism, Apollinarianism, and the numerous other fourth century heresies documented by the likes of Epiphanios of Salamis seem at best to be extremely heterodox forms of Christianity.

Yes, and one has to remember that Roman Catholics established hospitals and schools in most cities in North America and around the world when these were absolutely needed. I think the Salvation Army does a great job in the charity field.

I like the Salvation Army a lot. However I don’t understand for the life of me why they don’t baptize. Even some Quakers have baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
 
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Andrewn

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The reason why I date the start from the 5th century is I regard the Donatists, who did start in the 4th century, and the Novationists, who actually started I believe in the late 3rd century, as heretics, and the Arians as being non-Christian, whereas the Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and the Church of the East are all of similar faith to the point where Rome will let its members receive the Eucharist in all of the above. Of course in the fifth century Rome and the Eastern Orthodox were still in communion, although by the ninth century cracks were showing.
What is your reading of the reformation before Luther: the Hussites, Waldensians, Lollards, and even Cathars?

So, I can easily and comfortably regard Assyrians, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics and indeed Anglicans, Lutherans, Moravians, Methodists and traditional mainline liturgical churches in general as each representing a beautiful expression of Christianity,
Is it intentional that you didn't mention the Reformed tradition or is it included in the "traditional mainline liturgical churches in general?" Where does the Church of Christ and United Church of Christ fit?
 
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Jaxxi

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So @Jaxxi if I were you, I would approach this question the other way; tracing back the history of the early Church, which modern churches today would Jesus be most horrified by? Recall in Revelations the pastoral concern he expressed for several local churches, some of which had serious problems. Some of the churches our Lord addressed in Revelations, and the Apostle Paul wrote to in his epistles, still exist; others do not. For example, the local church of Corinth despite all its problems miraculously managed to survive; the church at Ephesus was exterminated by the Turks in the genocide of 1915, although Christian pilgrims still visit the town.

The early church did not have denominations; there was just one unified church, which is mentioned in the Creed as the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” Note in this context Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic but rather “according to the whole”, meaning the entire church preaching the entire doctrine; and despite the Roman Catholic Church attempting to monopolize the word Catholic, that never happened, and Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Moravian and Assyrian Christians are among those who self-identify as Catholic. The denominations resulted from schisms which started in the fifth century, when Pope Leo I meddled in the affairs of the Eastern church; then in the eleventh century Pope Leo IX excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople for refusing to agree with the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, and then in the 15th century, the Roman Catholic Church ignored the complaints of Czech Orthodox Christians who had been forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism, and in the 16th century Pope Leo X ignored the complaints of Martin Luther. However, not all the schisms were caused by the Roman Catholic Church, and in several cases I believe we can say the Roman church acted correctly, for example, the initial event that led to the creation of the Church of England, that being Henry VIII’s desire for divorce and remarriage, was not shall we say morally impressive.

But God moved in mysterious ways. The Church of England managed to accomplish a number of things that the Roman Church has unsuccessfully tried to do repeatedly, for example, get people to attend Morning and Evening Prayer in addition to the Holy Communion service. The Roman Catholic Church for its part did admirably reform itself, and in my opinion is one of the better churches today, particularly when one considers its massive charitable operations which do save many lives in some of the poorest countries, and which unlike secular charities such as Goodwill and the Red Cross, are largely run by unpaid celibate monks and nuns (whereas Goodwill and the International Red Cross have had several controversies about how massively overpaid their executives are; in 2013, the lowest paid Goodwill employee in the US, a disabled woman, made $1.13/hr, which I thought was illegal, while the total cost for executive salaries at Goodwill was $53 million).

The Episcopal Church USA also has some very good charitable operations, but I think our Lord is angry with some of their leaders, specifically those who did waste $45 million on legal fees suing conservative parishes and dioceses which wanted to leave because of the unbiblical teaching of the Episcopal Church on human sexuality (the Episcopal Church deviates from what our Lord and the Apostle Paul taught about homosexuality and gay marriage), in order to keep the real estate. And then there was a major scandal in Los Angeles because Bishop Bruno, who has resigned in shame, had apparently done some unethical side deals with real estate developers that would have personally benefitted him when the former conservative parishes, which inevitably closed after the traditional Christians were locked out, were sold; this specifically involved a parish the church was trying to sell that occupied prime waterfront real estate. But, to the credit of the Episcopal Church, they are starting to return towards Christ; people have been leaving them for traditionalist Anglican churches for decades, and I have a feeling things will get better under their new Presiding Bishop.

Now, as @GreekOrthodox mentioned, what is now the Southern Baptist Convention was originally formed over slavery, but they have repented of that, and while I disagree with them on doctrine, specifically, I believe infants should be baptized, the modern day SBC, along with the Roman Catholics, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the traditional Lutheran churches (but not the ELCA), and some other denominations, are a strong witness against the evils of abortion, euthanasia, the promotion of homosexuality and transsexuality to children, and other grievous offenses. Meanwhile, the denomination I resigned from for reasons of my conscience, the United Church of Christ, actively promotes these things!

The other thing to remember is that in recent decades, there has been considerable ecumenical rapprochement. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox have had very productive dialogues, recovering from the schism in the eleventh century caused by Pope Leo IX, and also the Roman Catholic Church has had even more productive dialogues with the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, which became separated from it and the Eastern Orthodox in the fifth century, and separately the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox in Egypt and Syria have become so close, they are basically, from the perspective of the laity, an extended family.
How can we be sure that these letters were not to the end time churches, as Revelation is an end times prophesy? If this were the case, the church in Philidelphia would be the American Church since Philidelphia was our first capital and America plays a huge part in the church movements worldwide. It is just a thought.
 
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