Was the OT totally in reference to God the Father?

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Your view, my view, and all the other differing views is why we have so many denominations. For many centuries, it was only the Catholic Church. Then the Church splintered. Then the splinter groups splintered. The splintering continues because we would rather argue and criticize one another rather than worrying about our own relationship with Christ. It's not that we forgot the Bible. Instead, we forgot to love one another.
This is so true and where does ego have any place in religion? It is not about us per say as we go to worship and glorify God and if we all who say we love Christ and trust in His words and believe He is faithful and true, cannot go into the same building together and worship Him for who He is and for what He has done for us, then something is very wrong. This is why I feel that Christian music fest are so important and powerful ( as long as the bands and singers are truly Christians) because people of all denominations will all pile in together and will worship Him together not caring if someone else is a Baptist, or a Catholic, or a Lutheran. They are there to praise Jesus and the energy at these events is so good and so powerful, and so positive that one of these events can literally cause an earthquake in hell, and have demons shuddering in fear. These events are the closest thing to the church God intended.
However we must be careful not to support fake Christian music like Lauren Daigle and Toby Mac because these are secular artists out for the buck. Lauren Daigle has said that she is not sending a message to anyone, she is merely singing a song and that is wrong to me. If you do not believe in what you are singing about our Lord Jesus Christ, I don't care how good your voice is. Get off the stage.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas White

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2020
1,196
708
37
Stockbridge
✟79,254.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
This is so true and where does ego have any place in religion? It is not about us per say as we go to worship and glorify God and if we all who say we love Christ and trust in His words and believe He is faithful and true, cannot go into the same building together and worship Him for who He is and for what He has done for us, then something is very wrong. This is why I feel that Christian music fest are so important and powerful ( as long as the bands and singers are truly Christians) because people of all denominations will all pile in together and will worship Him together not caring if someone else is a Baptist, or a Catholic, or a Lutheran. They are there to praise Jesus and the energy at these events is so good and so powerful, and so positive that one of these events can literally cause an earthquake in hell, and have demons shuddering in fear. These events are the closest thing to the church God intended.
However we must be careful not to support fake Christian music like Lauren Daigle and Toby Mac because these are secular artists out for the buck. Lauren Daigle has said that she is not sending a message to anyone, she is merely singing a song and that is wrong to me. If you do not believe in what you are singing about our Lord Jesus Christ, I don't care how good your voice is. Get off the stage.

It's not my place to judge whether or not they are in for the right reason, but I will say that Toby Mac helped shape my faith when I was younger.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,176
51,516
Guam
✟4,910,579.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So was the Old Testament mainly God the Father speaking?
Hi, Jaxxi. Nice to meet you and welcome to CF.

I'm going to toss out a sixty-four dollar term and hope it helps: ontological subordination.

That's a real fancy term, but all it means is that, throughout the Bible, one Member of the Godhead was in the forefront of things, while the other two Members stood by.

In the Old Testament, we see God the Father in the forefront, with God the Son making appearances from time to time (example: the Burning Bush, the Angel of the LORD, and other appearances). We also see God the Holy Spirit doing things, such as inspiring men to write God's word, assisting Bezaleel and Aholiab in building the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, and prompting Saul to prophesy.

When the New Testament started, we see Jesus stepping into the forefront, with the Father and the Holy Spirit standing by and making appearances from time-to-time.

At Pentecost we see the Holy Spirit stepping into the forefront, with the Father and the Son standing by.

At the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will then turn things back over to Jesus, who will rule and reign for a thousand years; then turning everything over to the Father, who will make a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Everything decently and in order! :)
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
How can we be sure that these letters were not to the end time churches, as Revelation is an end times prophesy? If this were the case, the church in Philidelphia would be the American Church since Philidelphia was our first capital and America plays a huge part in the church movements worldwide. It is just a thought.

Well, the thing is, the issues our Lord was writing about were real issues. For example, Nicolaitans were real heretics, who followed the Deacon Nicolas, ordained in the Book of Acts, who at some point decided that Christianity meant total sharing of property, and offered to share his wife with any who asked, and also embraced Gnostic theology derived from Simon Magus. Nicolaitanism became popular for the same reason Islam and Mormonism initially became popular and the cult of The Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh became popular - relaxed sexual morality. Nicolaitanism allowed wife swapping, Mormonism and Islam restored polygamy, which Christianity had suppressed, and Judaism had also phased out, and The Bhagwan encouraged his followers to be sexually promiscuous while mocking marriage as an obsolete institution. So our Lord despising its doctrines makes sense.

In interpreting it literally-historically, I am using the Antiochene exegetical method, which these days too many people use exclusively when interpreting the Old Testament, when it is filled with Christological and eschatological prophecy. When people attempt to apply the letters of Christ to churches of the present, or churches throughout history, or churches in the end times, that is the Alexandrian exegetical method, which is based on a prophetic or parabolic interpretation with a Christological and eschatological focus, using allegorical, typological, metaphorical, or mystagogical means.

I am, like the Cappadocians and St. John Chrysostom, and I would argue, our Lord Himself, who tended to interpret scripture literally and prophetically, sometimes the same passage, a proponent of using both methods, with the amount of literal-historical Antiochene interpretation and the amount of parabolic and prophetic Alexandrian interpretation that is appropriate being different for each part of the Bible, and sometimes varying within a given book, as well as the specific Alexandrian exegetical technique that should be used. And I think in general that the text itself will suggest the extent to which we should take it literally and the extent to which we should read it as prophecy. For example, it is clear that Jonah being forced overboard to save the ship while on a mission to save a gentile city, Nineveh, from destruction, makes him a type of Christ; his being in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights foretells the death and resurrection of our Lord; the repentance of the Ninevites which spares them from destruction is literally true, because Nineveh was an early center of Christianity and to this day, the Nineveh Plains of Iraq are the center of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and Assyrian nationalists have long desired them as a homeland for Syriac Christians; the Syriac Orthodox and Chaldeans also live there in large numbers; the repentence also symbolically points to the success Christianity enjoyed among the gentiles, while the continuing lack of faith on the part of Jonah suggests how some Jews would have difficulty accepting Christ despite overwhelming evidence; the near failure of Jonah as a prophet also shows how only our Lord, who was the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, devoid of sin, fully God and fully Man, could ultimately succeed in saving everyone. But I also believe the story was literally true, and that Jonah did survive in the belly of the whale, because God is omnipotent; his angels could easily have kept Jonah alive by protecting him from the digestion of the whale, and ensuring hid blood remained oxygenated, and by causing this to happen, our Lord ensured the Ninevites would listen, and also captivated the attention of the Jews.

And it should be noted that there is a hilarious section of the Talmud in which the Rabbis pause from their discussion of inheritance and other “thrilling” legal issues, and instead talk about various spectacular fish they had personally encountered. This to me shows how much, even centuries after Christ, the exoteric (outward, literal) meaning of Jonah still captured the imagination of the Jews, and I believe those who came to understand its exoteric, prophetic meaning became more receptive to the Gospel, the parallels between Christ and Jonah, as well as the differences, become too obvious to ignore, and Jonah was written many centuries before the Incarnation.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Hi, Jaxxi. Nice to meet you and welcome to CF.

I'm going to toss out a sixty-four dollar term and hope it helps: ontological subordination.

That's a real fancy term, but all it means is that, throughout the Bible, one Member of the Godhead was in the forefront of things, while the other two Members stood by.

In the Old Testament, we see God the Father in the forefront, with God the Son making appearances from time to time (example: the Burning Bush, the Angel of the LORD, and other appearances). We also see God the Holy Spirit doing things, such as inspiring men to write God's word, assisting Bezaleel and Aholiab in building the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, and prompting Saul to prophesy.

When the New Testament started, we see Jesus stepping into the forefront, with the Father and the Holy Spirit standing by and making appearances from time-to-time.

At Pentecost we see the Holy Spirit stepping into the forefront, with the Father and the Son standing by.

At the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will then turn things back over to Jesus, who will rule and reign for a thousand years; then turning everything over to the Father, who will make a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Everything decently and in order! :)

Ontological subordination doesn’t really work because of John 1:2. As I said before, while we do hear the Father twice, we only know it is the Father because the Gospel text says as much. When the Lord speaks directly in the Old Testament, it seems reasonable to assume that it is the Word. Also, since in the Gospels the Holy Spirit appears as a dove, and in Acts as tongues of fire, why should we believe the spiritual fire which burned upon the bush without consuming it (indeed, the very bush is still alive, in the courtyard of St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai), is anyone other than the Spirit, particularly since the Spirit is known for appearing as flames?

Another argument against ontological subordination is that, while not Modalist per se, it gives less catechized hearers a possible reason to believe in modalism.

Finally, why should we not assume that all three members of the Trinity are continually active, given the Trinity is both unchanging and dynamic? Ontological subordination seems contrary to the principle of divine immutability. It is made clear that the Son reveals the Father to us, and the Spirit makes His presence felt; it seems these functions would be required at all times and in all places, particularly if we consider the principle of divine unknowability (that is to say, that the divine nature is entirely beyond human understanding, and what we know about God is primarily through inductive reasoning from apophatic theology enabled via scriptural revelations.

God is a mystery; no one has seen the Father except through the Son, and the divine essence of God has been described correctly and rather beautifully as “dazzling darkness,” what is more, the idea of the Trinity, one eternal and unchanging God, unbounded, unlimited in knowledge and power, consisting of three persons in a union of perfect love, a God of whom we must say God is love, because merely making love an attribute of God is theologically inadequete and unbiblical, and I feel like concepts such as ontological subordination dare to presume too much about the inner workings of God, depend on cataphatic assumptions which are not in scripture (I feel the only positive assertions we can safely make about the divine nature of God, which would include questions such as what person of the Trinity is the subject of a verse, are those which are divine revelations in the Bible, and elsewhere, we can only speculate about using apophatic theology, but even then, it is impossible to assert with certainty.

As you might well have guessed, I subscribe to Palamist theology and reject as presumptuous, entirely unfounded, and actually, unfoundable, that is to say, unknowable given the limits of human epistemology, the Thomistic doctrine of Absolute Divine Simplicity.
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Well, the thing is, the issues our Lord was writing about were real issues. For example, Nicolaitans were real heretics, who followed the Deacon Nicolas, ordained in the Book of Acts, who at some point decided that Christianity meant total sharing of property, and offered to share his wife with any who asked, and also embraced Gnostic theology derived from Simon Magus. Nicolaitanism became popular for the same reason Islam and Mormonism initially became popular and the cult of The Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh became popular - relaxed sexual morality. Nicolaitanism allowed wife swapping, Mormonism and Islam restored polygamy, which Christianity had suppressed, and Judaism had also phased out, and The Bhagwan encouraged his followers to be sexually promiscuous while mocking marriage as an obsolete institution. So our Lord despising its doctrines makes sense.

In interpreting it literally-historically, I am using the Antiochene exegetical method, which these days too many people use exclusively when interpreting the Old Testament, when it is filled with Christological and eschatological prophecy. When people attempt to apply the letters of Christ to churches of the present, or churches throughout history, or churches in the end times, that is the Alexandrian exegetical method, which is based on a prophetic or parabolic interpretation with a Christological and eschatological focus, using allegorical, typological, metaphorical, or mystagogical means.

I am, like the Cappadocians and St. John Chrysostom, and I would argue, our Lord Himself, who tended to interpret scripture literally and prophetically, sometimes the same passage, a proponent of using both methods, with the amount of literal-historical Antiochene interpretation and the amount of parabolic and prophetic Alexandrian interpretation that is appropriate being different for each part of the Bible, and sometimes varying within a given book, as well as the specific Alexandrian exegetical technique that should be used. And I think in general that the text itself will suggest the extent to which we should take it literally and the extent to which we should read it as prophecy. For example, it is clear that Jonah being forced overboard to save the ship while on a mission to save a gentile city, Nineveh, from destruction, makes him a type of Christ; his being in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights foretells the death and resurrection of our Lord; the repentance of the Ninevites which spares them from destruction is literally true, because Nineveh was an early center of Christianity and to this day, the Nineveh Plains of Iraq are the center of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and Assyrian nationalists have long desired them as a homeland for Syriac Christians; the Syriac Orthodox and Chaldeans also live there in large numbers; the repentence also symbolically points to the success Christianity enjoyed among the gentiles, while the continuing lack of faith on the part of Jonah suggests how some Jews would have difficulty accepting Christ despite overwhelming evidence; the near failure of Jonah as a prophet also shows how only our Lord, who was the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, devoid of sin, fully God and fully Man, could ultimately succeed in saving everyone. But I also believe the story was literally true, and that Jonah did survive in the belly of the whale, because God is omnipotent; his angels could easily have kept Jonah alive by protecting him from the digestion of the whale, and ensuring hid blood remained oxygenated, and by causing this to happen, our Lord ensured the Ninevites would listen, and also captivated the attention of the Jews.

And it should be noted that there is a hilarious section of the Talmud in which the Rabbis pause from their discussion of inheritance and other “thrilling” legal issues, and instead talk about various spectacular fish they had personally encountered. This to me shows how much, even centuries after Christ, the exoteric (outward, literal) meaning of Jonah still captured the imagination of the Jews, and I believe those who came to understand its exoteric, prophetic meaning became more receptive to the Gospel, the parallels between Christ and Jonah, as well as the differences, become too obvious to ignore, and Jonah was written many centuries before the Incarnation.
So then who is Babylon and can you distinguish the writing of the old Babylon and the new?? Is the US found anywhere in the Bible?
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So then who is Babylon and can you distinguish the writing of the old Babylon and the new?? Is the US found anywhere in the Bible?

No, the Americas were unknown. And the city of Philadelphia existed until it was destroyed by the Turks in 1922. Heck Syrmna, now called Izmir, is the third largest city in Turkey.
 
Upvote 0

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
237
64
Southwest
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, it is God speaking.

Interesting thing is, it is always God speaking through the whole Bible.

Jesus, the Son of God, said that he only spoke what His Father told Him.

Very well put.

The only thing I'd like to add (if I may) is Jesus referred to his speaking (and doing) only what the Father showed him in the incarnation.

In the incarnation, God the Word: Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / ISAIAH 44:24) was limited by the fact that he had to live his life as a man (rather than with a self sustained / self sufficient God Spirit within him). His humanity was what he emphasized most... because he had to qualify as the kinsman redeemer of humanity.

Very rarely did Jesus act on his own Deity. The water turned to wine, the raising of Lazarus...
but all with the go ahead of the Father. For if you read the verses that seem to limit Jesus, they also say he can do what the Father does.
 
Upvote 0

Nathan@work

Always ready :)
Feb 19, 2021
1,025
360
45
Garfield
✟27,017.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Very well put.

The only thing I'd like to add (if I may) is Jesus referred to his speaking (and doing) only what the Father showed him in the incarnation.

In the incarnation, God the Word: Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / ISAIAH 44:24) was limited by the fact that he had to live his life as a man (rather than with a self sustained / self sufficient God Spirit within him). His humanity was what he emphasized most... because he had to qualify as the kinsman redeemer of humanity.

Very rarely did Jesus act on his own Deity. The water turned to wine, the raising of Lazarus...
but all with the go ahead of the Father. For if you read the verses that seem to limit Jesus, they also say he can do what the Father does.

Interesting. Curious here, why change what Jesus is called around? The Bible says He is the "Word of God", but you called Him "God the Word".

I do not ever find that Jesus(flesh or spirit) has diety of His own apart from that which God gives Him. The essence of Who Jesus is comes from God His Father - before, durring, and after His time on earth. Not from another source. God did not derive His essence from any source.

It deffinitely is a wonderful study though. :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,802
4,309
-
✟681,411.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Nicolaitans were real heretics, who followed the Deacon Nicolas, ordained in the Book of Acts, who at some point decided that Christianity meant total sharing of property, and offered to share his wife with any who asked, and also embraced Gnostic theology derived from Simon Magus.
Nicholas is a very common name in the Greek world. Some early Church writers identified the Nicolaitans with the famous deacon of Acts while others rejected this identification. I hate to ascribe to him such a hideous heresy.

The point we understand from Rev 2:14-16 is that the Nicolaitans taught the heresy of Balaam: to eat food sacrificed to idols and practice fornication.

"John Henry Blunt, maintains that the comparison between the Nicolaitans and Balaam 'proves that the fornication spoken of is not that crime under ordinary circumstances, but fornication connected with religious rites'. . . . He also points out that the early Christians lived in a pagan culture where the worship of Aphrodite included hierodoule who engaged in ritual prostitution in her shrines and temples, and that the Dionysian Mysteries used intoxicants and other trance-inducing techniques to remove inhibitions and social constraints of believers (regardless of class or gender) to enter into an animalistic state of mind."

Nicolaism
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So then who is Babylon and can you distinguish the writing of the old Babylon and the new?? Is the US found anywhere in the Bible?

Well it seems clear to me that in Revelations Babylon is used as a cypher by the Apostle John for Rome, and indeed this was common in the early church until the end of the persecutions in 314 AD, so as to not give the Pagan Roman government another reason to persecute Christians. Hence also the use of a number of the beast, 666, which using Hebrew Gemmatria apparently resolves to the Greek form of the name of Emperor Nero, who did initiate the persecutions.

I don’t know if the US is specifically mentioned in scriptural prophecy or not, and I also don’t believe it’s knowable; there are texts which could be interpreted as referring to us, but only if these actually are the Last Days, and that is something we do not know. In 2 Peter, the Apostle argues that no prophecy is its own interpretation, and this points to the fact that the Christological nature of the Old Testament prophecy and the true nature of the Christ, not as a conquering military leader but as the infinitely more powerful only begotten Son and Word of God, who became Incarnate to spread news of a Kingdom not of this world.
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Well it seems clear to me that in Revelations Babylon is used as a cypher by the Apostle John for Rome, and indeed this was common in the early church until the end of the persecutions in 314 AD, so as to not give the Pagan Roman government another reason to persecute Christians. Hence also the use of a number of the beast, 666, which using Hebrew Gemmatria apparently resolves to the Greek form of the name of Emperor Nero, who did initiate the persecutions.

I don’t know if the US is specifically mentioned in scriptural prophecy or not, and I also don’t believe it’s knowable; there are texts which could be interpreted as referring to us, but only if these actually are the Last Days, and that is something we do not know. In 2 Peter, the Apostle argues that no prophecy is its own interpretation, and this points to the fact that the Christological nature of the Old Testament prophecy and the true nature of the Christ, not as a conquering military leader but as the infinitely more powerful only begotten Son and Word of God, who became Incarnate to spread news of a Kingdom not of this world.
Absolutely and I find more end times prophesy on earthly events in the book of Daniel more than Revelation. That is where we find who comes against who but ( and this shows our arrogance) my religious friend was trying to figure out the nation's and who is who like who is to the South, ( South America) and who is to the North ( Canada) see what he was doing? I told him No no no! We have to map it from Israel's point of view, not ours!! He says " What? Oh yeah, huh?' haha!
 
Upvote 0

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
237
64
Southwest
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Interesting. Curious here, why change what Jesus is called around? The Bible says He is the "Word of God", but you called Him "God the Word".

I do not ever find that Jesus(flesh or spirit) has diety of His own apart from that which God gives Him. The essence of Who Jesus is comes from God His Father - before, durring, and after His time on earth. Not from another source. God did not derive His essence from any source.

It deffinitely is a wonderful study though. :)

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

God the Word with God.

Fully God:
Colossians 2:9 (AV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Not partially God. Not deriving his essence from God (the Father). God the Word is as much God as the Father. God the Word is EQUAL with the Father:

Philippians 2:6 (AV)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Only his body (his humanity which he became according to John 1:14) was the creation of the Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14b).

Jesus (preincarnate) is the Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning:

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;

To clarify this was indeed God the Word who became Jesus in the incarnation see John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2. This Lone Creator was Jesus preincarnate.

Genesis 1:1 (AV)
1 In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
237
64
Southwest
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The thing is... and what the Original Post was describing... is a notion that is widely held in the Church. That the Father is more or less the God of the Old Testament and Jesus is the God of the New.

Actually, Jesus is the God of both.

The Father is the actual mystery of the Old Testament that most believe Jesus was. Jesus' incarnation was a mystery in the Old Testament, but Jesus (preincarnate) was there all along. He is YHVH, the LORD, Yahweh, Jehovah.

John 8:58 (AV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Exodus 3:14–15 (AV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Father and the Holy Spirit have always been present (obviously since they are eternal). In fact one of the easiest ways to defend the Trinity doctrine is what I call the old one - two:

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

And who he was with are:

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Genesis 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So Jesus preincarnate was in the presence of the Father and the Holy Spirit but he acted alone in creation by himself. Makes sense that he is the one in the Godhead who took responsibility for the fall of creation (though it was not his fault) to suffer as a man and die as a man and raise from the grave to eternity as a resurrected man (albeit the resurrected God-man).
 
Upvote 0

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
237
64
Southwest
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But when you realize who the LORD actually is... you are ha rd pressed to find the Father in the Old Testament. Certainly not as frequent as when one thought the LORD was the Father.

Footnote: YHVH / Yahweh / the LORD / Jehovah is apparently something like a surname meaning it applies to all three individuals in the Godhead. Jesus said in John 17 that he sanctifies us in his Father's name. The believer's commission (which most call the Great Commission) ← the actual Great Commission, I would argue, is "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." But in Matthew 28:19 we are to baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit = Yahweh / the LORD / YHVH / Jehovah. ← for those who get picky over baptizing in Jesus name: Jesus actual name is YHVH SAVES. YEHOSHUA.

This is not to imply the Father has no part in the goings on... his is the authority / ultimate authority of all. When the Lord Jesus appeared to Abraham in Genesis 22 as the Messenger of YHVH, angel simply means one who is sent by another, he was sent by the Father (though it is not mentioned in scripture). The plan of salvation etc. is that of the Father (John 17).

The Holy Spirit has been deeply involved with the plan of the Father and the actions of the Son throughout scripture (which he the Holy Spirit wrote through the writing prophets see 2 Peter 1:21). He leads us to all truth.
 
Upvote 0

Nathan@work

Always ready :)
Feb 19, 2021
1,025
360
45
Garfield
✟27,017.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think that when we try and combine the Two of them in our minds, we do not understand the fullness of what God has done for us by giving His Son.

It is not unusual. They could not fully grasp it when Jesus was standing right there in front of them.
 
Upvote 0