Was the original Catholic Church created by power hungry zealots?

[redleghunter]

Matthias took the place of Judas. Apostolic succession, which was further practiced as the apostles died.

He was not a bishop. Notice the requirements for apostolic succession in Acts 1. With the exception of Paul who was taught directly by the Risen Christ the candidates to replace Judas had to have been part of the Earthly ministry of Christ. This means those after the apostles died lacked this requirement and thus becoming a bishop or elder is not equivalent to being an apostle. No one alive after the Apostles met the requirements.

 

[redleghunter]

How the Eucharist became the sacrifice of the mass is that the apostles were told to do this in remembrance of Me, and they did.

The Roman Catholic Eucharist is only a memorial?

I know it is not. Nor is it for most Protestants. It is the Lord’s Supper where we come to the Lord’s Table to sup with Him as He is the Head and we are His Body the Church. Where two or more are gathered in His Name He is present.

 

[mark kennedy]

Her reaction to Him starting his ministry? Not quite. She said, paraphrasing, "Do something. I know you can." He said "It's not my time." She said not one other word to him, as though He would do whatever she suggested. She pushed him to start his ministry. "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars..." who was with child and gave birth to Jesus. Who gave birth to Jesus? Mary, who was shown as a queen alive in heaven. That's just the way it is, and always was, understood by the Catholic Church.

You not judging from the context, this is a personage not a person and Jesus was born in the first century not during the tribulation. It's obviously Israel, the twelve stars are the twelve tribes, proably twelve of the 24 elders. Figurative language is not up for grabs, no where is Mary called queen of heaven.

As far as the Cana miracle, Jesus generally help whoever asked. Certainly under the circumstances a miracle was warranted. Since we don't really know when this happened jumping to conclusions that she pressed him into something he was reluctant to do is presumptive.

 

[SolomonVII]

Catholicism[edit]
Catholics find the roots of their priesthood in the tradition of Melchizedek. (CCC 1544)[7] In Genesis 14:18, Melchizedek offers a sacrifice of bread and wine. Christ therefore fulfilled the prophecy of Ps 110:4, that he would be a priest "after the order of Melchizedek," at the Last Supper, when he broke and shared bread with his disciples. Catholics take seriously Christ's command that the Apostles should "do this in memory of Me". As such, the Catholic Church continues to offer the same sacrifice of bread and wine at Mass, as part of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

This is the sole origin of a Catholic priesthood.
It is certainly not paganism, not even the Aaronic priesthood of the OT,but something considered of a higher calling, and something that precedes the Law of Moses and the rituals involved therein. Such is explained in Hebrews.

Priests in all cultures are commissioned with rituals, and most definitely, the Last Supper must be understood as ritualized behavior that was to continue in the Church created by the sacrifice of Jesus.

To be sure there have from the very beginning been very heterodox understandings of virtually any Christian doctrine from the beginning, and Christian rituals are not the exception. If Protestants want to find ancient ideals that differed from what became considered orthodox, definitely history of Christianity contains a plethora of heterodox ideals. Islam itself is an example of how heterodox ideals can lead to very different understandings of who Christ is.

The fact that Islam exists also shows the danger of straying too far from the traditional orthodoxies, too far in writing off the mainstream views as hopelessly corrupted apostasy.

 

[mark kennedy]

Wrong. He stated that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, and they were disgusted and left. They misunderstood him. That, my friend, is the cut and dry.

No he said that and misunderstood his meaning. John 6:63-64 there is a context and a bottom line, some of you don't believe.

 

[SolomonVII]

And in the Orthodox Church, a bishop or priest cannot serve the Divine Liturgy alone. There must be laity present. "λειτουργία" has always been understood to be a work of the people.

Most certainly, even in more modern rites of Catholicsm post-Vatican, the whole of the laity are involved in sacrificing, along with the priest, and offering of the gifts is a part of the ceremony of the Eucharist.
Catholic Mass is fully cognizant of the Biblical idea of a "priestly nation".

 

[mark kennedy]

Catholicism[edit]
Catholics find the roots of their priesthood in the tradition of Melchizedek. (CCC 1544)[7] In Genesis 14:18, Melchizedek offers a sacrifice of bread and wine. Christ therefore fulfilled the prophecy of Ps 110:4, that he would be a priest "after the order of Melchizedek," at the Last Supper, when he broke and shared bread with his disciples. Catholics take seriously Christ's command that the Apostles should "do this in memory of Me". As such, the Catholic Church continues to offer the same sacrifice of bread and wine at Mass, as part of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

This is the sole origin of a Catholic priesthood.
It is certainly not paganism, not even the Aaronic priesthood of the OT,but something considered of a higher calling, and something that precedes the Law of Moses and the rituals involved therein. Such is explained in Hebrews.

Priests in all cultures are commissioned with rituals, and most definitely, the Last Supper must be understood as ritualized behavior that was to continue in the Church created by the sacrifice of Jesus.

To be sure there have from the very beginning been very heterodox understandings of virtually any Christian doctrine from the beginning, and Christian rituals are not the exception. If Protestants want to find ancient ideals that differed from what became considered orthodox, definitely history of Christianity contains a plethora of heterodox ideals. Islam itself is an example of how heterodox ideals can lead to very different understandings of who Christ is.

The fact that Islam exists also shows the danger of straying too far from the traditional orthodoxies, too far in writing off the mainstream views as hopelessly corrupted apostasy.

In 1 Peter 2:9 Peter is addressing the Jews of the dispersion 1 Peter 1:1. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchezidek, an office held by Christ alone. Levites were priests, pagans had a priesthoid and Levites certainly converted to Christianity but the only office of priest descibed in the church is that of Jesus, our faithfull High Priest. Hebrews 7:21-25

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yet there were no priests established in the NT church government.

A bishop is 'church government'. Bishops established priests when they could no longer do the entire job themselves. And they knew they had the authority to do that, based on apostolic succession.

 

[Root of Jesse]

He was not a bishop. Notice the requirements for apostolic succession in Acts 1. With the exception of Paul who was taught directly by the Risen Christ the candidates to replace Judas had to have been part of the Earthly ministry of Christ. This means those after the apostles died lacked this requirement and thus becoming a bishop or elder is not equivalent to being an apostle. No one alive after the Apostles met the requirements.

Yes, he was, just as the other apostles were. Matthias was a disciple of Jesus. Laying on of hands by an apostle is the sign. The bishops ARE the successors of the apostles, having been ordained by one in a line of succession.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Roman Catholic Eucharist is only a memorial?

I know it is not. Nor is it for most Protestants. It is the Lord’s Supper where we come to the Lord’s Table to sup with Him as He is the Head and we are His Body the Church. Where two or more are gathered in His Name He is present.

Where did I say it was only a memorial. It is a remembrance, which by its nature is more than a memorial. Remembrance requires re-enactment.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You not judging from the context, this is a personage not a person and Jesus was born in the first century not during the tribulation. It's obviously Israel, the twelve stars are the twelve tribes, proably twelve of the 24 elders. Figurative language is not up for grabs, no where is Mary called queen of heaven.

It is certainly Israel, but there are multiple meanings of apocalyptic language.

As far as the Cana miracle, Jesus generally help whoever asked. Certainly under the circumstances a miracle was warranted. Since we don't really know when this happened jumping to conclusions that she pressed him into something he was reluctant to do is presumptive.

Jesus told his mother "My hour has not yet come." Yet he obeyed her request.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No he said that and misunderstood his meaning. John 6:63-64 there is a context and a bottom line, some of you don't believe.

Pot, meet kettle. You don't believe what the original Church believed...

 

[redleghunter]

A bishop is 'church government'. Bishops established priests when they could no longer do the entire job themselves. And they knew they had the authority to do that, based on apostolic succession.

I already pointed out the church of Ephesus planted by Paul had multiple elders/bishops.

There were two appointments. The elder or bishop and deacons. The church functioned in this fashion until later in the second century.

Jerome and Catholic scholarship comfirms this as previously mentioned pages ago.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, he was, just as the other apostles were. Matthias was a disciple of Jesus. Laying on of hands by an apostle is the sign. The bishops ARE the successors of the apostles, having been ordained by one in a line of succession.

I said he was not a bishop. There was no succession of Apostles as the requirement for an apostle in Acts 1 was to be a direct disciple of Christ.

Acts 1: NASB

21“Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[mark kennedy]

It is certainly Israel, but there are multiple meanings of apocalyptic language.Jesus told his mother "My hour has not yet come." Yet he obeyed her request.

First of all that hour is when the Son of Man will be glorified. She gave him no commands, she advised him of the situation. He was speaking kindly to her, the father putting on the celebration was likely a relative.when his hour had come he sweat blood and suffered, now he is enjoying a celebration.

As far as the woman being part of prophetic imagery, the interpretaion is generally found in tge immediate context, as with all figurative literature. There is no such thing as a queen of heave in any Judean Christian tradition. That is not something Catholics got from Scrptures or the 400 + years of cgurch that proceeded it. For a tradition that demands it has the sole authority to interpret Scripture you guys are weak on expositions.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I already pointed out the church of Ephesus planted by Paul had multiple elders/bishops.

There were two appointments. The elder or bishop and deacons. The church functioned in this fashion until later in the second century.

Jerome and Catholic scholarship comfirms this as previously mentioned pages ago.

Actually, John was the bishop of the region which included the seven churches in Revelation. The order which Jesus spoke to them is the way the bishop would travel between them. John was the bishop of Ephesus. There were multiple priests. Today, the bishop of Oakland has charge of 87 dioceses, each lead by a pastor. But the bishop is the Bishop of Oakland. Bishops are and were ordained by other bishops. Priests and deacons are and were ordained by bishops to serve them. It is still this way today.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I said he was not a bishop. There was no succession of Apostles as the requirement for an apostle in Acts 1 was to be a direct disciple of Christ.

Acts 1: NASB

21“Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

HE was added to the eleven apostles (making them twelve). That makes him a bishop.

 

[redleghunter]

Actually, John was the bishop of the region which included the seven churches in Revelation. The order which Jesus spoke to them is the way the bishop would travel between them. John was the bishop of Ephesus. There were multiple priests. Today, the bishop of Oakland has charge of 87 dioceses, each lead by a pastor. But the bishop is the Bishop of Oakland. Bishops are and were ordained by other bishops. Priests and deacons are and were ordained by bishops to serve them. It is still this way today.

Evidence for this?

 

[redleghunter]

HE was added to the eleven apostles (making them twelve). That makes him a bishop.

The 12 were not bishops. They were apostles. Bishops are not apostles.

 

[Root of Jesse]

First of all that hour is when the Son of Man will be glorified. She gave him no commands, she advised him of the situation. He was speaking kindly to her, the father putting on the celebration was likely a relative.when his hour had come he sweat blood and suffered, now he is enjoying a celebration.

As far as the woman being part of prophetic imagery, the interpretaion is generally found in tge immediate context, as with all figurative literature. There is no such thing as a queen of heave in any Judean Christian tradition. That is not something Catholics got from Scrptures or the 400 + years of cgurch that proceeded it. For a tradition that demands it has the sole authority to interpret Scripture you guys are weak on expositions.

In Judean tradition, the queen was the mother of the king, because most kings had multiple wives. So the king is Jesus, his mother is the queen. Where was Jesus king? Heaven. So where is his mother queen? Heaven.
The wedding feast in Cana recalls Bathsheba taking the seat next to Solomon to ask him a favor. Solomon could not refuse his mother. Same with Mary and Jesus.