Was the original Catholic Church created by power hungry zealots?

[fishmansf]

I know this may sound offensive but I dont mean it to. What made me think of this was the way the Catholics treat their saint, almost seeming to worship them. We're the saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, etc.) Just zealots who new they would be respected in future generations for their sacrifice or was their mission go really bring people to repentence in the name of Jesus? An additional question is, does the Bible teach anywhere that it's okay to pray to saints and to venerate them like Roman Catholics do? Or should all of our prayer and respect and praise be to Jesus and his sacrifice alone?

 

[HTacianas]

I know this may sound offensive but I dont mean it to. What made me think of this was the way the Catholics treat their saint, almost seeming to worship them. We're the saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, etc.) Just zealots who new they would be respected in future generations for their sacrifice or was their mission go really bring people to repentence in the name of Jesus? An additional question is, does the Bible teach anywhere that it's okay to pray to saints and to venerate them like Roman Catholics do? Or should all of our prayer and respect and praise be to Jesus and his sacrifice alone?

There is nothing in the bible regarding prayers to saints. But it is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity. All of the original churches pray for the intercession of the saints, not only the Roman Church.

 

[mark kennedy]

I know this may sound offensive but I dont mean it to. What made me think of this was the way the Catholics treat their saint, almost seeming to worship them. We're the saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, etc.) Just zealots who new they would be respected in future generations for their sacrifice or was their mission go really bring people to repentence in the name of Jesus? An additional question is, does the Bible teach anywhere that it's okay to pray to saints and to venerate them like Roman Catholics do? Or should all of our prayer and respect and praise be to Jesus and his sacrifice alone?

For the first question I have no real answer, I just don't think the saints can hear prayers. Apostolic authority starts from and radiates out from the Apostle's doctrine, there is no getting around that one. I see no problem honoring those who went before us but Jesus always told us to direct our prayers to the Father, you remember that right, Our Father that art in heaven. For my part I've always identified with various Catholic and Orthodox traditions, believing that believers have a single common faith that transcends tradition. Five hundred years before the Protestants ran afoul of the RCC the Orthodox felt the pain of being excommunicated because Rome demanded subservience. In a world that perishes for lack of knowledge we dare not wrestle over political power in our ranks, the greatest of us are destined to be servant to all. I can't be your master until I'm ready to wash your feet.

 

[redleghunter]

There is nothing in the bible regarding prayers to saints. But it is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity. All of the original churches pray for the intercession of the saints, not only the Roman Church.

The original NT church did not. Of over 200 recorded prayers in Holy Scriptures all are directed to God directly.

 

[HTacianas]

The original NT church did not. Of over 200 recorded prayers in Holy Scriptures all are directed to God directly.

The saints we ask intercession from were still alive during NT times. The Church at Thessaloniki is an NT Church. Intercession of the saints is part of its practices.

 

[redleghunter]

I know this may sound offensive but I dont mean it to. What made me think of this was the way the Catholics treat their saint, almost seeming to worship them. We're the saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, etc.) Just zealots who new they would be respected in future generations for their sacrifice or was their mission go really bring people to repentence in the name of Jesus? An additional question is, does the Bible teach anywhere that it's okay to pray to saints and to venerate them like Roman Catholics do? Or should all of our prayer and respect and praise be to Jesus and his sacrifice alone?

Not in the Holy Scriptures or evidence in Acts through Revelation which shows us what the NT souls were taught by the Apostles and practiced.

Probably the earliest evidence we have is a prayer to Mary in the date range of mid 3rd Century.

 

[redleghunter]

The saints we ask intercession from were still alive during NT times. The Church at Thessaloniki is an NT Church. Intercession of the saints is part of its practices.

Again not evident from the teachings and practices of the NT. Most were still Jews and nowhere you can find Jews in the Old Testament praying to Moses to intercede after he died.

 

[HTacianas]

Again not evident from the teachings and practices of the NT. Most were still Jews and nowhere you can find Jews in the Old Testament praying to Moses to intercede after he died.

It is evident from the longstanding practices and teachings of the Church.

 

[prodromos]

Again not evident from the teachings and practices of the NT. Most were still Jews and nowhere you can find Jews in the Old Testament praying to Moses to intercede after he died.

Not in the Old Testament, but it is recorded that Jews have long sought Rachel's intercession at her grave outside Bethlehem.

 

[redleghunter]

It is evident from the longstanding practices and teachings of the Church.

Long standing absent from the ancient NT church. Just saying...

 

[redleghunter]

Not in the Old Testament, but it is recorded that Jews have long sought Rachel's intercession at her grave outside Bethlehem.

Which would be a tradition formed outside of TaNaKh. Where we cannot find any prayer of hundreds invoking other than God.

The only mention of praying to entities outside of God alone in the OT are pagan.

 

[HTacianas]

Long standing absent from the ancient NT church. Just saying...

So was the bible.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

While Catholics tend to say Catholicism came first, "Christianity" actually came first when Jesus was on earth. It wasn't until long John died that Catholicism became a its own thing. Hence why they declared John the first people.

Book wise some of the books found in the Catholic bible were not found until later in history. And regardless scholars who compared them to the books most branches of Christianity use, they found the books clash with some of the normal bibles stuff. Hence they may not have been divinely inspired. I sort of say its like the authors personal journals instead of actual bible books.

 

[redleghunter]

So was the bible.

Jesus preached from Holy Scriptures. The teachings of Christ and His Apostles is how we received the NT Scriptures.

Yet this is obvious avoidance as not one prayer is recorded nor hinted in the entire Scriptures to anyone but God. No intercession other than through Christ.

 

[HTacianas]

Jesus preached from Holy Scriptures. The teachings of Christ and His Apostles is how we received the NT Scriptures.

Yet this is obvious avoidance as not one prayer is recorded nor hinted in the entire Scriptures to anyone but God. No intercession other than through Christ.

Would you expect Paul to pray to himself?

 

[HTacianas]

While Catholics tend to say Catholicism came first, "Christianity" actually came first when Jesus was on earth. It wasn't until long John died that Catholicism became a its own thing. Hence why they declared John the first people.

Book wise some of the books found in the Catholic bible were not found until later in history. And regardless scholars who compared them to the books most branches of Christianity use, they found the books clash with some of the normal bibles stuff. Hence they may not have been divinely inspired. I sort of say its like the authors personal journals instead of actual bible books.

The bible "most branches of Christianity use" has only been around for about one hundred years.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I know this may sound offensive but I dont mean it to. What made me think of this was the way the Catholics treat their saint, almost seeming to worship them. We're the saints (Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, etc.) Just zealots who new they would be respected in future generations for their sacrifice or was their mission go really bring people to repentence in the name of Jesus? An additional question is, does the Bible teach anywhere that it's okay to pray to saints and to venerate them like Roman Catholics do? Or should all of our prayer and respect and praise be to Jesus and his sacrifice alone?

Well, your premise is wrong. All but one of the apostles was martyred, put to death for their faith. Their mission was what Jesus said it was-go spread the Gospel to all the world, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
The commandment says to honor your father and mother. We believe this not only means those who physically procreated us, but to those, our fathers and our mother in the Church. We venerate the saints, we do not worship them the way we worship God. The Bible also recommends that we pray for other people, intercessory prayer. So it is ok to ask others, even the saints, alive in heaven, to pray for us. Lastly, all prayer and veneration ultimately goes to Jesus, and God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

For the first question I have no real answer, I just don't think the saints can hear prayers. Apostolic authority starts from and radiates out from the Apostle's doctrine, there is no getting around that one. I see no problem honoring those who went before us but Jesus always told us to direct our prayers to the Father, you remember that right, Our Father that art in heaven. For my part I've always identified with various Catholic and Orthodox traditions, believing that believers have a single common faith that transcends tradition. Five hundred years before the Protestants ran afoul of the RCC the Orthodox felt the pain of being excommunicated because Rome demanded subservience. In a world that perishes for lack of knowledge we dare not wrestle over political power in our ranks, the greatest of us are destined to be servant to all. I can't be your master until I'm ready to wash your feet.

To the bolded, Revelation tells us otherwise...

 

[Root of Jesse]

The original NT church did not. Of over 200 recorded prayers in Holy Scriptures all are directed to God directly.

RLH, what about intercessory prayer? I know what you're going through health-wise, and I ask St. Peregrine for his help in your infirmity. (Ask = pray, in one sense). God alone is going to effect that help, though. We know the ultimate end of our prayers is God, as in Revelation.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The saints we ask intercession from were still alive during NT times. The Church at Thessaloniki is an NT Church. Intercession of the saints is part of its practices.

And we believe they are alive in heaven, too.