Was the Great Pyramid Built Before Noah's Flood?

[The Barbarian]

Paleomagnetic data analysis lacks precision and the samples examined are usually all over the place on the scatter graphs I have seen. It is hard to see how this supports your case. Also, there is some skepticism in the scientific community about the overall reliability of the method.

Fortunately, there are historical records to check the findings in many cases. And since they very closely agree, the reality aligns nicely with the data.

Radioisotope testing assumes that no daughter element was present in the original sample

No. Isochrons show that such an assumption is not needed.

and may be subject to the distortions of inputs and outputs over years of weathering, sand storms etc, and there are some glaring examples of the unreliability of the method.

Sand storms really have no way to affect the interior of stone blocks. If you thought about it, you could see why.

The results usually come in the form of scattered samples sitting at different places on the graph from which a broad average or trend is discerned. That is not certainty.

Logical certainty is rarely possible in anything humans do. However, the data are clear and reliable.

 

[mindlight]

Fortunately, there are historical records to check the findings in many cases. And since they very closely agree, the reality aligns nicely with the data.

The historical data is mainly hearsay and that which is closest to the original times and culture suggests a much later (EDITED) dating (Herodotus and the other Greeks who commentated).

No. Isochrons show that such an assumption is not needed.

Sand storms really have no way to affect the interior of stone blocks. If you thought about it, you could see why.

Logical certainty is rarely possible in anything humans do. However, the data are clear and reliable.

Agreed about weathering and the interior of rocks.

Statistical tools used by the geochronology community are simply designed to weed out isotopic ratios that don’t plot tightly on an isochron line - (so you can get a result on your mass spectrometer). But if the problem of differential diffusion is real then these algorithms may simply be reinforcing the effect rather than yielding an accurate result.

If differential diffusion of isotopes occurs in the rocks and minerals they contain so that plotting of their analysed isotopic ratios produces straight lines indistinguishable from isochrons, then we can never be sure that true isochrons have been obtained and thus correct isochron ages.

However, such false isochrons may also be due to further diffusion or isotope mass fractionation during the process of analyzing the samples to measure the isotope ratios that have been plotted as those isochrons.

Key Flaw Found in Radioisotope Isochron Dating

Add on to that the standard creationist objections:

1) You cannot prove a constant rate of decay
2) You cannot prove starting ratios of parent and daughter elements

I only have to prove reasonable doubt, not come up with an entirely new theory. There is reasonable doubt about the accuracy of this method.

 

[The Barbarian]

1) You cannot prove a constant rate of decay

Actually, tests have shown that such rates are very constant at temperatures and pressures found on Earth. If decay rates were significantly faster in the past, the increased radiation from the rocks would have fried all living things on Earth. So that's not a viable belief.

2) You cannot prove starting ratios of parent and daughter elements

Of course you can. Any argon in an igneous rock, for example must have formed after the rock cooled, since heat would have offgassed any gaseous elements.

I only have to prove reasonable doubt

That's what's tripping you up here.

 

[mindlight]

Actually, tests have shown that such rates are very constant at temperatures and pressures found on Earth. If decay rates were significantly faster in the past, the increased radiation from the rocks would have fried all living things on Earth. So that's not a viable belief.



Of course you can. Any argon in an igneous rock, for example must have formed after the rock cooled, since heat would have offgassed any gaseous elements.



That's what's tripping you up here.

You missed the main argument in that post.

You make an assertion about decay rates based on a uniformitarian assumption that goes back millions of years in scope. If the radioactive rocks only appeared as a result of a non-analogous supernatural judgment at the time of the flood, that assumption just would not matter as there would be no time for your apocalyptic vision to occur anyway. You have no way of knowing if decay rates are a constant if unstable radioactive rocks have always been a feature of earth's configuration, and no way of saying how much of parent and daughter isotope was present in the original sample.

The pyramids were mainly built of sedimentary rock created by the flood event. Hot gas bubbles can be trapped in igneous rock to seep out later thereby compromising dating.

So again there are grounds for reasonable doubt.

 

[The Barbarian]

You make an assertion about decay rates based on a uniformitarian assumption that goes back millions of years in scope.

No, that excuse won't work for you. First, rates are observable. And as you now know, if they were significantly greater in the past, there would have been lethal radiation everywhere, and life would have ended on the Earth. And we can check the rocks to confirm that. We do have at least one example where fissionable isotopes were concentrated enough to cause such a case locally. And the rocks show it.

If the radioactive rocks only appeared as a result of a non-analogous supernatural judgment at the time of the flood, that assumption just would not matter as there would be no time for your apocalyptic vision to occur anyway.

If you get to call in unscriptural miracles to patch up holes in your beliefs then any belief is equally plausible. So that excuse fails, too.

You have no way of knowing if decay rates are a constant if unstable radioactive rocks have always been a feature of earth's configuration

As you just learned, we do. We even have a geological record of one case where concentration of radioactive elements made your scenario possible in a very limited way. And (surprise) it did leave evidence behind.

Hot gas bubbles can be trapped in igneous rock to seep out later thereby compromising dating.

That's been tested. And your assumption turns out to be wrong. Even pumice, which foamed up with gas to form numerous spaces in the rock, lacks those gases.

 

[mindlight]

No, that excuse won't work for you. First, rates are observable. And as you now know, if they were significantly greater in the past, there would have been lethal radiation everywhere, and life would have ended on the Earth. And we can check the rocks to confirm that. We do have at least one example where fissionable isotopes were concentrated enough to cause such a case locally. And the rocks show it.

Assumptions: uniformitarianism, old earth, and unstable rocks always existed

If you get to call in unscriptural miracles to patch up holes in your beliefs then any belief is equally plausible. So that excuse fails, too.

Assumptions: naturalism - no miracles, or judgments to complicate the process. Deistic God is not involved with His creation

As you just learned, we do. We even have a geological record of one case where concentration of radioactive elements made your scenario possible in a very limited way. And (surprise) it did leave evidence behind.

Assumptions: That geological record was not laid down by the supernatural event associated with the advent of said rocks

That's been tested. And your assumption turns out to be wrong. Even pumice, which foamed up with gas to form numerous spaces in the rock, lacks those gases.

Might be true, the time spans in my worldview make this one irrelevant anyway.

 

[The Barbarian]

No, that excuse won't work for you. First, rates are observable. And as you now know, if they were significantly greater in the past, there would have been lethal radiation everywhere, and life would have ended on the Earth. And we can check the rocks to confirm that. We do have at least one example where fissionable isotopes were concentrated enough to cause such a case locally. And the rocks show it.

Assumptions

No. Evidence. I get that your new doctrines assume things that aren't supported by evidence. Find a way to live with it.

If you get to call in unscriptural miracles to patch up holes in your beliefs then any belief is equally plausible. So that excuse fails, too.

Assumptions

In this case, your assumptions are unscriptural miracles. And if you get to call one in every time your ideas have holes in them, then anything you imagine will be equally valid. Which is a problem, in my opinion.

That's been tested. And your assumption turns out to be wrong. Even pumice, which foamed up with gas to form numerous spaces in the rock, lacks those gases.

Might be true

Demonstrably so.

the time spans in my worldview make this one irrelevant anyway

Assumptions. As you see, the evidence and lack of scriptural support make them just assumptions.

 

[Dale]

While I do not believe the Hebrew account correct, it does not discount Scripture either. There was no genealogy in Scripture. This does not mean the contemporaries of Melchizedek were unaware of his genealogy.

Hebrews says that Melchizedek has “no genealogy.” I will leave it at that. It means that we are told not to probe into it.

 

[John Caldwell]

Hebrews says that Melchizedek has “no genealogy.” I will leave it at that. It means that we are told not to probe into it.

I'm not sure how "no genealogy" means "we are told not to probe it". I think Hebrews was making a point about a priesthood that was not linked to the Levitical priests. I'd say it means probing Melchizedek's genealogy is useless as there is none recorded.

And that was not my point. I mentioned it because of the OP in regards to timelines. I was never interested in discovering Melchizedek's genealogy.

 

[Dale]

There is nothing definite about the usage of those 2 stars as the method. It is perfectly possible they used the sun at solstice method and were slightly off each time. People overestimate Egyptian astrologers/ wise men throughout history as the Bible records

Two quotes from the article in the link from post #2.

“ In the year 2467 BC (when building pyramids was all the rage), two stars appeared to rotate around the Celestial North Pole. These stars were Mizar (Eta-Ursae Majoris) in the Big Dipper and Kochab (Beta-Ursae Minoris) in the Little Dipper.”

“The most accurate is the Pyramid of Khufu, also called the Great Pyramid. The east and west sides miss true north by less than three minutes of arc (roughly one tenth the diameter of the full moon). With this kind of accuracy, it's no wonder they were one of the Seven Wonders of the World. It took over 4,000 years before the astronomer, Tycho Brahe, was able to take astronomical measurements to a greater accuracy.”

No other method available to the ancient Egyptians leads to this kind of accuracy.

 

[Dale]

Yes but that archaeological and textual evidence is controversial as are many of the conclusions of Egyptology because of the continual historical revisionism that took place in Egyptian history. Herodotus and later Greek commentators all gave a much later date.

The Greeks lacked any concept of vast periods of time. It’s a known fact about Greek historians.

 

[Dale]

The historical data is mainly hearsay and that which is closest to the original times and culture suggests a much later (EDITED) dating (Herodotus and the other Greeks who commentated).



Agreed about weathering and the interior of rocks.

Statistical tools used by the geochronology community are simply designed to weed out isotopic ratios that don’t plot tightly on an isochron line - (so you can get a result on your mass spectrometer). But if the problem of differential diffusion is real then these algorithms may simply be reinforcing the effect rather than yielding an accurate result.

If differential diffusion of isotopes occurs in the rocks and minerals they contain so that plotting of their analysed isotopic ratios produces straight lines indistinguishable from isochrons, then we can never be sure that true isochrons have been obtained and thus correct isochron ages.

However, such false isochrons may also be due to further diffusion or isotope mass fractionation during the process of analyzing the samples to measure the isotope ratios that have been plotted as those isochrons.

Key Flaw Found in Radioisotope Isochron Dating

Add on to that the standard creationist objections:

1) You cannot prove a constant rate of decay
2) You cannot prove starting ratios of parent and daughter elements

I only have to prove reasonable doubt, not come up with an entirely new theory. There is reasonable doubt about the accuracy of this method.

Mindlight:
<< Add on to that the standard creationist objections:
1) You cannot prove a constant rate of decay
2) You cannot prove starting ratios of parent and daughter elements >>


Creationists have contributed nothing to science and repeatedly show that they do not understand science. Radioactive decay is a consequence of the weak nuclear force, one of the four forces of physics. There is no known method of changing the rate of radioactive decay. The weak nuclear force does what it does regardless of what the rest of the universe is doing. To put it differently, creationists cannot prove that the rate of radioactive decay varies, they cannot prove that it has ever changed.

I started my thread Creation Science Bogus to make the point that creationists don’t believe in constants. They insist that God fiddles with all constants, which makes all scientific calculations meaningless.

The rate of radioactive decay is constant, you can rely on that.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

All the megaliths were created by angels before 4,000BC. They were supposed to be inherited by sinless men. Angels and men sinned, so they were 'decommissioned'.
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Jude:1:5-8:
I will therefore put you in remembrance,
though ye once knew this,
how that the Lord,
having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha,
and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to fornication,
and going after strange flesh,
are set forth for an example,
suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh,
despise dominion,
and speak evil of dignities.

 

[The Barbarian]

All the megaliths were created by angels before 4,000BC.

One would think the angels would have more sophisticated construction techniques:
How was Stonehenge built?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

One would think the angels would have more sophisticated construction techniques:
How was Stonehenge built?

No idea, I wasn't there.

 

[The Barbarian]

No idea, I wasn't there.

Humans always leave traces that show how they did it.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Humans always leave traces that show how they did it.

If you were to watch the whole series, I think you would agree to something more than stone hammers and copper chisels were involved. Men were in the garden, the witnesses would have been no more skilled than 'a primate'.
They make a return for 42 months before Jesus returns. Part of taht has 4 fallen angels manifest into 200M angelic horsemen. If you could have hired them as a construction crew, one that could have built all the objects in Egypt in 'a long weekend':

Brien Foerster - the Lost Technology of the Ancient Megalithic Builders

 

[The Barbarian]

People today always want to ignore the evidence that Neolithic humans were as smart and capable as we are.

So they have to imagine aliens or chariots of the gods or whatever. The answer is less dramatic.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

People today always want to ignore the evidence that Neolithic humans were as smart and capable as we are.
So they have to imagine aliens or chariots of the gods or whatever. The answer is less dramatic.

There is always the possibility that during a 400,000 year long ice-age that people would be as smart as the ones in Babel were. Without a fallen angel coming up with 'a plan' I have no bout they were 'not dumb', we are, or there is an effort to show the opposite.
450ft lower oceanic coastline, able to find 'Atlantis' by sailing 'from the Atlantic Ocean' into the med sea and coming to 'this place':
Opium Throughout History | The Opium Kings | FRONTLINE | PBS

3400 B.C.
The opium poppy is cultivated in lower Mesopotamia. The Sumerians refer to it as Hul Gil, the 'joy plant.' The Sumerians would soon pass along the plant and its euphoric effects to the Assyrians. The art of poppy-culling would continue from the Assyrians to the Babylonians who in turn would pass their knowledge onto the Egyptians.
1300 B.C.
In the capital city of Thebes, Egyptians begin cultivation of opium thebaicum,grown in their famous poppy fields.The opium trade flourishes during the reign of Thutmose IV, Akhenaton and King Tutankhamen. The trade route included the Phoenicians and Minoans who move the profitable item across the Mediterranean Sea into Greece, Carthage, and Europe.
1100 B.C.
On the island of Cyprus, the "Peoples of the Sea" craft surgical-quality culling knives to harvest opium, which they would cultivate, trade and smoke before the fall of Troy.
460 B.C.
Hippocrates, "the father of medicine", dismisses the magical attributes of opium but acknowledges its usefulness as a narcotic and styptic in treating internal diseases, diseases of women and epidemics.
330 B.C.
Alexander the Great introduces opium to the people of Persia and India.
A.D. 400
Opium thebaicum, from the Egytpian fields at Thebes, is first introduced to China by Arab traders.

Sumeria as a global place would be the desert belt of the whole earth, aka Summer Area.

In Noah's flood the rain that fell on high hills stayed in place for 5 months, did it fall as 'snow'? The Garden in Ge:2 had a mist, rather than 'seasonal rains', during that same ice-age would 'fog' be 'normal weather'.

No shadows, temp is the same 7/24/360. After the flood, the 'clouds lifted', blue sky appeared for the first time if you lived below 2,000ft above sea level.

When I reference 'tabletop mountain' in South America, it would still be covered mountain glaciers to the height where a few huge slabs were moved from one side to the other by 'sliding them straight across' rather than today where they were lowered to the valley floor, then 'pulled up' up the other side to the same height where they stand today.

Purpose, totally unknown. Snowboard for immortal beings?

 

[David Kent]

It is generally agreed that Abraham lived around 2,000 BC (or about 4,000 years ago). Archaeologists and historians tell us that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was built around 2,500 BC (or 4,500 years ago). So the Great Pyramid was about five hundred years old when Abraham came out of the city of Ur.

Creationists, or at least those who claim that the world is only six thousand years old, say that there are only 400 years between Noah's Flood and Abraham -- or even less, as we shall see. This is unworkable.

For instance, one website gives the following dates.*

Creation 4004 BC

Flood 2348 BC

Tower of Babel 2234 BC Only 114 years after the Flood????

Abraham 1996 BC Only 352 years after the Flood????



As you can see, this creationist date of 1996 BC for Abraham is very close to the generally accepted figure of around 2000 BC. Yet they claim that the Tower of Babel, an immense project requiring tens of thousands of workers, happened only a trifle over a hundred years after the Flood. These workers would have to be supported by millions of farmers or herders. Keep in mind that after the Flood, Genesis says there were only eight people in the world.

There is solid evidence that the Great Pyramid and others nearby were built around 2500 BC, about 500 years before Abraham. Creationist reckoning seems to put the Great Pyramid before the Flood.



*www.biblehistory.com/timeline

I don't know where they get those dates from. I have usually seen Abraham dated about
2,200 BC, and the great pyramid about 2,400 BC.

But the pyramid date seems unlikely to me. We were told tat school that mathematics was invented at Ur. The bible tells us that Abraham came from Ur. Abraham went to Egypt and could have taught them mathematics. Josephus actually says that Abraham taught thhe Egyptians Mathematics and astronomy. If so it seems the pyramid was built after Abraham.

On a similar vein Herodotus says the Egyptians taught the Greeks, mathematics, astronomy and the names of the Gods. The Greeks actually had schools of mathematics in Egypt.

When Joseph was made prime minister over Egypt he had to eat separately from the Egyptians because he was a Hebrew and the Egyptians thought the Egyptians were unclean because they were shepherds. It would seem be likely that the Hyksos invaders,the Shepherd kings, may gave been the reason the Egyptians hated shepherds but they would seem to be centuries later.

While on the mythical vein, Herodotus said the pyramids were so named after a shepherd who kept his sheep there. The kings who built the pyramids were heretics from the Egyptian religion as they banned pagan gods. They great pyramid does not have any pagan symbols in it, unlike other Egyptian structures.

On that thought it has been suggested that Shem was one of those kings and built the pyramid. The Greeks taught that the man who built the pyramid, also built Jerusalem. Presumably the person who built the pyramid also constructed the Great Sphinx it is notable that that and all small sphinxes have had their faces defaced.

Shem, or sem, was a god of Egypt, so was Ham, and possibly Noah as Nub or Nut.