Was St. Augustine opposed to criminalizing prostitution?

[Andy Pierce]

I read from Andrew Anglin in Nigeria that St. Augustine was opposed to criminalizing prostitution because it acted as a release for degeneracy in society. I wanna know if this is true.

I do suspect inappropriate contentography wouldn't be so prevalent if prostitution was legal. inappropriate content is literally everywhere with numerous advertisements and children's TV shows featuring soft-core inappropriate content. inappropriate content is more destructive than drugs, yet you never hear the schools condemning inappropriate content.

 

[ArmyMatt]

knowing how much St Augustine lamented his past, I doubt it.

 

[Andy Pierce]

knowing how much St Augustine lamented his past, I doubt it.

What past? I know he courted a 10-year old. Not sure what courting entails.

 

[buzuxi02]

That person is giving you more of an interpretation on a specific passage of Augustine. Prostitution was (and still is) widespread and legal in many parts of the world. Augustine was saying it's better to have prostitution regulated and confined than outlawing the practise which would cause prostitution to simply function illegally in the honest parts of town as well . He was explaining the thought process of his day that it's better to confine the sins of lust to a single location rather than have prostitution discretely present in every corner of the society.

The relevant passage:

What can be called more sordid, more void of modesty, more full of shame than prostitutes, brothels and every other evil of this kind? Yet remove prostitutes from human affairs, and you will pollute all things with lust; set them among honest matrons, and you will dishonour all things with disgrace and turpitude", Saint Augustine, De Ordine II.4

 

[ArmyMatt]

What past? I know he courted a 10-year old. Not sure what courting entails.

read his book Confessions. he wasn't the most moral of guys before he became Christian.

 

[rusmeister]

That person is giving you more of an interpretation on a specific passage of Augustine. Prostitution was (and still is) widespread and legal in many parts of the world. Augustine was saying it's better to have prostitution regulated and confined than outlawing the practise which would cause prostitution to simply function illegally in the honest parts of town as well . He was explaining the thought process of his day that it's better to confine the sins of lust to a single location rather than have prostitution discretely present in every corner of the society.

The relevant passage:

What can be called more sordid, more void of modesty, more full of shame than prostitutes, brothels and every other evil of this kind? Yet remove prostitutes from human affairs, and you will pollute all things with lust; set them among honest matrons, and you will dishonour all things with disgrace and turpitude", Saint Augustine, De Ordine II.4

Well, yeah, 100% of the Church fathers were 99% Orthodox...

He's totally wrong on that. Who said they need to be set among honest matrons? It's better to have open hypocrisy, which at least admits a moral standard, than to live in a society that denies the moral standard altogether. And if anyone thinks they can produce patristic consensus with him on that, I have a cheap Kremlin to sell them...

 

[buzuxi02]

He's totally wrong on that. Who said they need to be set among honest matrons?

He is saying they will illegally operate in the shadows in the midst of everyone and not confined to a sleazy part of town. This was the thinking of his time which is still the thinking today in countries that have legalized prostitution.
Is it true? Not neccesarily but it is the reality.

Athens Greece has about 800 brothels (in just that one city!) both legal and illegal and the Church does not speak out against it. Yes it has proliferated even unto the honest matron's quarters. Regulating it didn't help and has reached the "honest matron's"

Bulgaria has legalized prostitution since 1990 it's not like Bulgarian bishops are preoccupied with trying to reverse government decision. Romania had legal prostitution prior to communism and recently has decriminalized it. In fact it was communism that outlawed prostitution in it's territories not the Christian governments before it. In Italy it is legal but not organized. In Ukraine it's illegal but rampant and all over including trafficking, it's criminality not enforced etc. It would be this latter example that Augustine wants to avoid.

In most countries of Europe it's either legal or decriminalized and the sentiment of the majority has always been the same as Augustine's whether right or wrong.

 

[rusmeister]

He is saying they will illegally operate in the shadows in the midst of everyone and not confined to a sleazy part of town. This was the thinking of his time which is still the thinking today in countries that have legalized prostitution.
Is it true? Not neccesarily but it is the reality.

Athens Greece has about 800 brothels (in just that one city!) both legal and illegal and the Church does not speak out against it. Yes it has proliferated even unto the honest matron's regulating it doesn't help.

Bulgaria has legalized prostitution since 1990 it's not like Bulgarian bishops are preoccupied with and trying to reverse government decision. Romania had legal prostitution prior to communism and recently has decriminalized it. In fact it was communism that outlawed prostitution in it's territories not the Christian governments before it. In Italy it is legal but not organized. In Ukraine it's illegal but rampant and all over and it's criminality not enforced etc.

In most countries of Europe it's either legal or decriminalized and the sentiment of the majority has always been the same as Augustine's.

The sentiment of the majority in America used to be different. I saw Nevada, I drove through it in the year of our Lord 2000, and it was pretty plain that there was a direct connection between the poverty and dissipation, and the legalized prostitution and gambling.

I don't want to see any more. Really. They can legalize that stuff over my dead body. Literally.

 

[buzuxi02]

The sentiment of the majority in America used to be different. I saw Nevada, I drove through it in the year of our Lord 2000, and it was pretty plain that there was a direct connection between the poverty and dissipation, and the legalized prostitution and gambling.

I don't want to see any more. Really. They can legalize that stuff over my dead body. Literally.

I agree. I used the example of Greece which atleast one organization in the country counts 800 brothels in Athens City alone (this doesn't include street walkers in the poor immigrant parts of town). The economic situation in Greece has made married women go into prostitution even though the laws regulating prostitution makes it illegal for brothels to hire married women. It's also illegal to operate as call girls. Prostitutes and their business must be confined to the red light shops which are also to be placed a great distance away from certain institutions. Unfortunately since the economic crisis brothels have proliferated and tainted the honest matrons (married women, college students etc) who work off the books nonetheless. So in this case what Augustine was espousing (not that he espoused it as he wrote against prostitution elsewhere) to keep sins of lust confined through government regulation has failed and what he feared has happened anyway.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I do suspect inappropriate contentography wouldn't be so prevalent if prostitution was legal. inappropriate content is literally everywhere with numerous advertisements and children's TV shows featuring soft-core inappropriate content. inappropriate content is more destructive than drugs, yet you never hear the schools condemning inappropriate content.

Regardless if your logic is valid, the main reason behind inappropriate content being everywhere is an unholy trinity:

1. The Internet
2. Corporate marketing
3. Corporate Liberalism (and the degeneracy affiliated with that)

If prostitution were legal, the internet, corporate marketing, and corporate liberalism would still make inappropriate contentography prevalent.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Regardless if your logic is valid, the main reason behind inappropriate content being everywhere is an unholy trinity:

1. The Internet
2. Corporate marketing
3. Corporate Liberalism (and the degeneracy affiliated with that)

If prostitution were legal, the internet, corporate marketing, and corporate liberalism would still make inappropriate contentography prevalent.

good points.

 

[Andy Pierce]

Regardless if your logic is valid, the main reason behind inappropriate content being everywhere is an unholy trinity:

1. The Internet
2. Corporate marketing
3. Corporate Liberalism (and the degeneracy affiliated with that)

If prostitution were legal, the internet, corporate marketing, and corporate liberalism would still make inappropriate contentography prevalent.

inappropriate content was everywhere before the Internet in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Andy Pierce]

The sentiment of the majority in America used to be different. I saw Nevada, I drove through it in the year of our Lord 2000, and it was pretty plain that there was a direct connection between the poverty and dissipation, and the legalized prostitution and gambling.

I don't want to see any more. Really. They can legalize that stuff over my dead body. Literally.

Yet... you're a Democrat?

 

[rusmeister]

inappropriate content was everywhere before the Internet in the 80s and 90s.

No, it wasn’t.
I was actually alive then.
Magazines were hidden under the counter. The only reason I ever saw any inappropriate content AT ALL in childhood was in finding a rotting mag in the woods.
Now kids can access it from their phones.

 

[Sketcher]

I read from Andrew Anglin in Nigeria that St. Augustine was opposed to criminalizing prostitution because it acted as a release for degeneracy in society. I wanna know if this is true.

Whether or not it was true, I believe it was the normative Roman view at the time, and it had been for hundreds of years.

I do suspect inappropriate contentography wouldn't be so prevalent if prostitution was legal. inappropriate content is literally everywhere with numerous advertisements and children's TV shows featuring soft-core inappropriate content. inappropriate content is more destructive than drugs, yet you never hear the schools condemning inappropriate content.

I'm not going to deny the damage or prevalence of inappropriate content, but having seen a relative destroy her life with cocaine, I can confidently say that at least in one sense, drugs are far more damaging.

 

[buzuxi02]

Whether or not it was true, I believe it was the normative Roman view at the time, and it had been for hundreds of years.

The pendulum is swinging in which it's the viewpoint once again but much more nefarious than in those days And it's mostly the women who support it!

About 2 months ago NYC partially decriminalized prostitution and a bill is to be debated on whether to legalize it in NY. Decriminalization has been lead by two NY assemblywoman for years. The argument is illegal women and transgender people need prostitution to make ends meet and keep everyone healthy and safe (I'm not kidding you):
New York Wants To Decriminalize Sex Work — But This Is Just The First Step

Likewise in Canada the pendulum is swinging where claims are made that legalized prostitution is empowering the marginalized:

Sex workers as peer health advocates: community empowerment and transformative learning through a Canadian pilot program | International Journal for Equity in Health | Full Text

And just a few days ago a Canadian college professor encouraged young women to harlot themselves out as a great way to pay college debt :

U of Ottawa professor: ‘Sex work’ is ‘the best thing young people can do early in their careers’

Augustine would have been in utter shock at the above sentiments in those articles. Here is what Augustine (and his students as it was a philosophical dialogue) said in context:
Augustine’s “De ordine” and his comment on prostitution

 

[rusmeister]

The linguistic arm aiming to attain approval of it insists on speaking of “sex work” rather than “prostitution”. We need to aggressively reject the modern efforts to change the language into evil euphemisms, and as we discover that words and terms we already use are indeed evil, we need to revert to speaking as our great-grandparents did, or find the truest language to express the ideas in a manner consistent with our Tradition. Very few modern terms meet the muster of Christian morality; most are meant to cloud and deceive. Our own language is chock full of falsehoods that we aren’t even aware of.

Has anybody here ever read GK’s essay on evil euphemisms?

 

[seeking.IAM]

...inappropriate content is more destructive than drugs....

Granted it's unseemly, but I find this statement an interesting point of view.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Granted it's unseemly, but I find this statement an interesting point of view.

sexual sins are far more subtle. you don't get drunk by looking at a beer, but you can nasty stuff just looking at inappropriate content

 

[Andy Pierce]

Whether or not it was true, I believe it was the normative Roman view at the time, and it had been for hundreds of years.

I'm not going to deny the damage or prevalence of inappropriate content, but having seen a relative destroy her life with cocaine, I can confidently say that at least in one sense, drugs are far more damaging.

And how many children were molested by their own relatives indirectly because of inappropriate content?