Was Judas Iscariot saved?

[CCWoody]

To be quite honest, I would be absolutely shocked if the Catholic church taught the second chance error of the Universalists.

Shocked, I tell you!

 

[rnmomof7]

As I said this is Catholic dogma.

The "problem" with judgementalism is that we cannot say who is in hell, this is also stated by the Catholic church because it is only God who knows.

I first stated in reply to this question about Judas being saved......my first post on this issue.......that it would in essence be against the idea of a forgiving God and also against Jesus dying for "all humanity"...he would have died in vain.

In one of my later posts I state that "my belief" is that when we come before God (perhaps in purgatory where we are supposed to be cleansed of our sins) we will not be able to or want to resist him.

David you said noting of Purgatory at any time or I would have known from the start that you are Catholic , it took several posts before I realized that .

Here is what you wrote

I believe this to be true also. I said in my earlier post that when we come face to face with God it will be impossible for us to resist..we won't want to anyway.

You said nothing about Purgatory .

I asked you several times if you believed in a second chance .
That is a completely different subject than purgatory . The Church believes that those in Purgatory are saved, they are simply being cleansed before coming into the presence of God.

No council that I am aware of said anything about a second chance after death...but they do talk about purgatory and the "purgation of sins"...council of Lyons in 1274 and Florence in 1439

A different topic one we have not discussed

What you see as "a second chance" I see as part of the cleansing process, as does the RC Church.

A different topic .
You have said that a loving God would not send anyone to hell, implying a Univeralist belief system. That is VERY different than what you are now posing . You said a God of "vengeance" would keep people out of the church. That you believed that when men come into the presence of God they will want Him .
That again strongly suggest a disbelief in the judgment of God sending someone to hell.
You have changed the topic here and your position.

In Theological terms, with our description of an all powerful, all loving God, the idea that part of his creation being beyond him is negative

David

There it is again.
David straight up.

Do you believe in hell? Do you believe that God will condemn people to hell?

Do you believe that unsaved men have an opportunity to desire God ater death ?

 

[dnich163]

To be quite honest, I would be absolutely shocked if the Catholic church taught the second chance error of the Universalists.

Shocked, I tell you!

As I said Woody it's called purgatory..so shocked you are friend

David

 

[dnich163]

Do you believe in hell? ....Yes

Do you believe that God will condemn people to hell?.......No

Do you believe that unsaved men have an opportunity to desire God ater death ?....................Yes

David

 

[rnmomof7]

As I said Woody it's called purgatory..so shocked you are friend

David

No that is not what you have ben saying David , not once until today have you mentioned purgatory
Purgatory is for the saved..a whole different topic

 

[Rocinante]

Isn't the second chance of Purgatory reserved for certain people? While really evil people (like those who support the "murder for profit" enterprise of invading helpless third world countries for gain) DO NOT get the second chance of Purgatory????

Or have I misunderstood Purgatory?

(?)

 

[rnmomof7]

Do you believe in hell? ....Yes

Do you believe that God will condemn people to hell?.......No

Do you believe that unsaved men have an opportunity to desire God ater death ?....................Yes

David

That is not Catholic doctrine IMO

 

[rnmomof7]

Isn't the second chance of Purgatory reserved for certain people? While really evil people (like those who support the "murder for profit" enterprise of invading helpless third world countries for gain) DO NOT get the second chance of Purgatory????

Or have I misunderstood Purgatory?

You are correct

 

[dnich163]

Or have I misunderstood Purgatory?

You have misunderstood purgatory.
Purgatory..as described in the teaching of the Magisterium......." is an intermediate state or condition between individual death and entrance into heaven......the limited natute of the official teaching leaves much room for theological reflection on the mystery of purgation"

David

 

[dnich163]

That is not Catholic doctrine IMO

You really need to read my posts mm.

What difference does it make as to whether I am Catholic or not..there is a whole strand of Catholic thought and spirituality that is very similiar to Protestant thought and spirituality......... as well as unfortunately the extremes on both sides of course.

Any way the original question was "was judas saved ? "......I happen to believe so ......my reason?......Jesus died for my sin, your sin, everybody's sin...Jew, Gentile or Greek....Would he leave out the lost sheep, the prodigal son who is lost...not in my book.

Another reason..from Theology...is that the explanation of the mystery of God determines...for me at least...that God is omnipotent, his will triumph over all...good will win over evil.....and for me......this means repentance for all who are created in the image and likeness of God.

In Genesis...God brings order out of chaos...I believe he brings order to all at the "end of time..the end of days"

Jesus came to give life...a new commandment I give unto you..love one another as I have loved you.

That commandment is for you and me from Jesus...not from us to others...at least this is my opinion


David

 

[Rocinante]

David said:

Jesus died for my sin, your sin, everybody's sin...Jew, Gentile or Greek....Would he leave out the lost sheep, the prodigal son who is lost...not in my book.

Rozzi sez:

The lost sheep, the prodigal son, the lost coin......none of these referred to the lost one as a Devil. But Jesus called the (offending) Pharisees AND Judas..... Devils.

That's quite a huge difference.

There is an indication of knowing and determined rebellion there......similar to that fallen angel himself.

And the sin for all these was murder or complicity in murder.

You could be right, David......but logic dictates otherwise.

 

[rnmomof7]

You have misunderstood purgatory.
Purgatory..as described in the teaching of the Magisterium......." is an intermediate state or condition between individual death and entrance into heaven......the limited natute of the official teaching leaves much room for theological reflection on the mystery of purgation"

David

Official Catholic teaching

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. ....

In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble,what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col. 445, 448).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#I

 

[rnmomof7]

You really need to read my posts mm.

I have read them

What difference does it make as to whether I am Catholic or not..there is a whole strand of Catholic thought and spirituality that is very similiar to Protestant thought and spirituality......... as well as unfortunately the extremes on both sides of course.

Not a bit of difference to me, but it might to my Catholic husband:>)

Any way the original question was "was judas saved ? "......I happen to believe so ......my reason?......Jesus died for my sin, your sin, everybody's sin...Jew, Gentile or Greek....Would he leave out the lost sheep, the prodigal son who is lost...not in my book.

That was the original question, but you expanded it to a God that would "****" anyone was vengeful and scare people away from church

Another reason..from Theology...is that the explanation of the mystery of God determines...for me at least...that God is omnipotent, his will triumph over all...good will win over evil.....and for me......this means repentance for all who are created in the image and likeness of God.

That takes you back to the denial of Hell

In Genesis...God brings order out of chaos...I believe he brings order to all at the "end of time..the end of days"

Jesus came to give life...a new commandment I give unto you..love one another as I have loved you.

That commandment is for you and me from Jesus...not from us to others...at least this is my opinion


David

You may want to read Romans 9

 

[rnmomof7]

Do you believe in hell? ....Yes

Do you believe that God will condemn people to hell?.......No

Do you believe that unsaved men have an opportunity to desire God ater death ?....................Yes

David

From the official Catholic Catechism

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs

CCC 1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


Now as a Protestant I do not agree with the final point. But it anyway it confirms the churches teaching that there is a "hell"

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

I have nothing really to add as of now, I just wanted to stay updated on this thread...

 

[DeVaughn Colvin]

The Gospel According to St. John, The Holy Bible, Chaper 6, Verses 61-71 tells me that Judas Iscariot was never saved:

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

[CCWoody]

As I said Woody it's called purgatory..so shocked you are friend

David

Do you have a source citation from a credible Catholic source which declares that the lost will be in Purgatory?

 

[dnich163]

You could be right, David......but logic dictates otherwise.

Hi Roz,

You could be right too Roz.
I'm not too sure about the logic bit...... especially when we are dealing with a mystery beyond our comprehension.

David

 

[dnich163]

I have read them

I feel that you didn't because on page 13 of the thread you accused me of heresy in effect when I was actually quoting Luther

David

 

[dnich163]

Not a bit of difference to me, but it might to my Catholic husband:>)

Does your husband take part in the forum as well?

David