Was Judas Iscariot saved?

[dnich163]

That was the original question, but you expanded it to a God that would "****" anyone was vengeful and scare people away from church

There is another thread with an American lady who is Protestant, and was leaving the church because of the teachings by the pastor to her children.

Apparently the pastor implied or said that their grandmother would be burning in Hell, and the kids were having nightmares about it.

This I suggest would scare some adults never mind children..and doesn't appear to me like a loving God should, and certainly not the God that I believe in.

David

David

 

[dnich163]

That takes you back to the denial of Hell

No, it means that I don't believe in the Hell that you believe in.

I did say in one of my earlier posts that it was perhaps down to interpretation

David

 

[dnich163]

You may want to read Romans 9

I'll do that.
Thanks,
David

 

[dnich163]

From the official Catholic Catechism

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs

CCC 1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


Now as a Protestant I do not agree with the final point. But it anyway it confirms the churches teaching that there is a "hell"

I already said on a number of times that I believe in Hell.
The church..at least the RC one...also says that it cannot state who is in Hell....If this is correct.....this means we can't say that Judas is there.

If Judas is not in Hell....then where is he?

Limbo? Purgatory? some kind of spiritual guantanamo bay?

I recall in one of your posts that you apologise if you said that someone was not a christian...that this was "God's call" was your statement.

My position then is the same as yours...whether Judas is in heaven or hell is ultimately God's call.

David

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

This may or may not have been covered. But here is the Catholic Churches teaching on what happens after you die in a nutshell - There are only three choices:

1) Heaven - For all who die in a state of grace
2) Purgatory - For all who die with venial sin unaccounted for.
3) Hell - For all who die in a state of mortal sin.

1) Once you get to heaven, you will be there forever. No Leaving.
2) Once you get to purgatory, your next step will be heaven.
3) Once you get to hell, you are there forever. No Leaving.

So the only place we believe you can leave after you die is purgatory, and the only place to go is heaven.

 

[CCWoody]

Hmmmm! It appears as if David is in denial of the official Catholic teaching, then.

 

[dnich163]

This may or may not have been covered. But here is the Catholic Churches teaching on what happens after you die in a nutshell - There are only three choices:

Hi Jeff,

Thank goodness...God and the Law in a nutshell, well at least we know where to look now...but have we found Judas yet?

You are entirely correct in what you state.....literally... but it is a bit of an oversimplification I suggest.
The language used in the Cathechism I use (The teaching of the Catholic Chuirch: A new Catechism of Christian Doctrine, written by Herbert McCabe O.P. first published in 1985, post Vatican 2) is more in line with contemporary Theological thought as officially pronounced by the Magisterium.

For example on Hell....the wording used is " If we die rejecting God's gift of the spirit we are unable to accept death, so that it remains our enemy forever. This is called Hell."

In 1979, The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published a "Letter on Certain Questions Concerning Eschatology"

In par 7, this document re-affirms the traditional teaching of the church (just as you have stated) i.e.: eternal punishment for sinners "who will be deprived of the sight of God".....however.........There is no official church statement about the damnation of any individual human being...so where is Judas (back to the original question)

My point is that we cannot state..and neither does the church officially..say that Judas is in Hell.


To develop and respond on the interpretation issue..which is actually one that is again current contemporary up to date thinking within the Church, the Magisterium is inclined to interpret the teaching of the church as the "possibility" of Hell.

The Magisterium also currently say that while purgatory exists ...in line with the catechism of course...that "the limited nature of the official teaching leaves much room for Theological reflection on the mystery of Purgation"

Cardinal Ratzinger for example takes a neutral stance in that he says "It is impossible to describe the moment of this encounter in temporal categories"

Why would all this very open language be necessary for something so definite I wonder?

At the root of the issue here.....I suggest.....is that the idea of Hell stands in complete contrast with the affirmation of the reality that is heaven, that heaven which has already been accomplished in the person of Jesus.

In theological terms then, if we as human beings were to have the power to reject God, then there is a dualism.If the devil ,the evil one, some dark force that is able to attract us so much from God, then he has a power over creation.
God doesn't win here in this scenario, because there is no unity, no oneness, there is an incompleteness.....there is something other than God.

This is also very definately against the teaching of the Catholic Church, and certainly my belief.

The most prolific and notable Catholic Theologians of the last century are Karl Rahner and Hans Ur Von Balthasar (the favourite Theologian of the Pope) both comtemporaries of each other and Jesuits.
Rahner took part in Vatican 2. Von Balthasar didn't, but contributed significantly in his works and influence.

In their writings, which are both monumental in terms of the amount and vast in their content, they cover this very issue in great depth......."How do we reconcile an all powerful God of love, forgiveness, redemption with the God of eternal rejection and damnation?"

These issues undoubtedly have to be prayed over, and meditated upon and reasoned with in accordance with scripture and the teaching of the Church.

What I offer...as my opinion only...is that there is a case where we as human being stand before God and see in our blindness what we have done wrong, where we have in our weakness gone astray, who in "full knowledge" is our saviour, and at that coming to know him point (which Ratzinger says we cant know or describe) we would want to love him and know him fully.

At this point we would not be able to resist is what I feel...a bit like Paul..he had no choice in the matter.
If you think about it, if he did this for Paul here on earth, what can he do for the rest of us when we are face to face on the "judgement" day?

But I hear you say...what about Hell and those who have lived an intentional and thoroughly bad life, killing, adultery etc.

My belief is that in this situation...when we come face to face with truth...then we will want to be in Hell ourselves, we would want to take ourselves away from the good because we would see how far short we fell, and how much Jesus suffered for us.

Our Hell would be in regret...this is why I quoted Augustine when he said "too late have I loved you Lord"

Back to the question then " was Judas saved?"...my answer is I hope so,
Is he in hell?...according to the official teaching of the Catholic church...we can't say, but my faith tells me he has been saved.

Why is this important to me?...because every one of us is part of Judas, just as every one of us is part of Peter and every one of us is in Christ.

David

 

[dnich163]

Hmmmm! It appears as if David is in denial of the official Catholic teaching, then.

Aaagh Woody, you disappoint me friend...appearances can be deceptive.
Wasn't the good lord rejected because he wasn't the "right kind of King".

What would the PR people of the modern world do with him I wonder?

Tell me are you an admirer of Mel Gibson or what William Wallace stood for?

David

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...

Back to the question then " was Judas saved?"...my answer is I hope so,
Is he in hell?...according to the official teaching of the Catholic church...we can't say, but my faith tells me he has been saved.

Why is this important to me?...because every one of us is part of Judas, just as every one of us is part of Peter and every one of us is in Christ.

David

I agree with this. As far as we don't know where Judas is. I too hope he was saved... I have no idea either way...

Jesus did say, "Forgive them, they know not what they do." Surely Christ meant Judas aswell... who knows...

 

[dnich163]

I agree with this. As far as we don't know where Judas is. I too hope he was saved... I have no idea either way...

Jesus did say, "Forgive them, they know not what they do." Surely Christ meant Judas aswell... who knows...

Thanks Jeff, and I hope he means us too, have a good day.
David

 

[kimber1]

i'll jump in here now after just kind of watching this thread progress. my thoughts on all this are similar to david and jeffrey. i cannot fathom God ever condemning anyone to hell. why? because He says He wishes for all to be saved and not perish. true He used judas in His plan and allowed for the devil to enter him but it is so obvious that judas showed remorse for his actions when he hung himself. if that doesn't show desperation i don't know what does. and God hears us when we cry out to Him. me personally, i'd liek to think Judas is in purgatory.
because david is right, the Church teaches that we cannot know one way or another who is in hell or not, and we are not to judge so do we know for sure? nope adn never will till Jesus comes again. me, i'll be praying for him.

 

[bloodofthelamb12]

 

[bloodofthelamb12]

i cannot fathom God ever condemning anyone to hell.

I'm kinda scared...there's a senior mod on this site who doesn't believe in hell! Don't you understand how sin WORKS? Sin is literal enmity with God. He cannot allow it in His presence: it's stinks like skunk to Him! But because God desired that all men would be saved, He sent His One and only Son to die for our sins. Now, by faith in Christ, our belief can be counted to us as righteousness, and we can be spared from judgment and hell. Because of Christ's sacrifice, all men can be saved; however, because of the arrogance of men, most will not be. Rather than accepting Christ, men reject His gift of salvation, choosing to die rather than to live. God literally hedged Himself between us and hell and said, "The only way your gettin in here is over my dead body." And, sadly, most people CHOOSE to go to hell by doing exactly that. Ignoring Christ's sacrifice, and dying in their sin.

And regret is not removal! Feeling bad that you betrayed your best friend on Earth to death doesn't take away your guilt: otherwise, Judas wouldn't have killed himself (duh). Had he not despaired and deprived himself of his life, he may well have been forgiven. But he perished before Christ's resurrection, so he was still under Old Testament Law. Which didn't save him from his guilt or death (as his sins were not sacrificed for), so...he died and went to hell.

 

[Rocinante]

I'm kinda scared...there's a senior mod on this site who doesn't believe in hell!

Roz sez:

Don't be scared. Not a lot of educated people believe that God would create people imperfect and then torture them forever in fire because they were imperfect.

It's a ridiculous notion and the Bible does not support it.

As far as Judas goes, it is not likely that he made it to heaven. If Jesus really supported a Universalist message he would have had a great teaching opportunity in Judas.

He could have said, "Even this betrayer, this robber of the poor, is going to heaven due to God's grace."

Instead, Jesus simply said that Judas was a "devil."

His suicide was irrelevant. The account of his death in Acts says he fell to his death so the suicide story may not be accurate anyway.

It is likely, based on what we know, that Judas will die the "second death" and be forever dead.

But we cannot know for sure.

 

[Willy]

What does "saved" mean? The Bible is not primarily concerned, as is modern American religion, with what is going to happen to the private "souls" of individuals. It is primarily concerned with the future of the faithful and the cosmos. It generally describes this future in terms of resurrection. Luke's telling of Judas' betrayal is quite interesting. He, unlike Mark and Matthew, has Judas receiving the body and blood of Jesus at the Last Supper. I suspect that this is Luke's way of indicating that God's grace and forgiveness includes even the betrayer.

 

[kimber1]

I'm kinda scared...there's a senior mod on this site who doesn't believe in hell!

sadly, you're twisting the context of my words. GOD does not condemn people to hell. people CHOOSING not to believe in Him send THEMSELVES to hell. i hope we've cleared my opinion up...

 

[Emmy]

I really like this Forum,it makes us think,I really mean think deeply.Here goes;God is our Creator,then He becomes Our Father and Redeemer,{after we have accepted His sacrifice and became His Sons(and daughters).We know tha God knows our hearts and innermost thoughts.We have been given free wills,to turn tu God and be saved for Him or we can just ignore Him and His gentle and ongoing wooing of us.As time goes by and we have been given many opportunities to accept the Lord as our Saviour,perhaps it is then that a person chooses to have nothing to do with their Creator.It will have to be their own free will. Here I hopefully believe that God,the loving Father will give a last minute opportunity to be saved,and I sincerely believe that most people(perhaps not everybody)will cry out to God to be saved i.e.to be with Him in all eternity.This makes sense when we do remember that God is a loving Father.But we should always remember that we can help by praying and witnessing. In love Your sister in Christ Emmy.

 

[Rocinante]

GOD does not condemn people to hell. people CHOOSING not to believe in Him send THEMSELVES to hell.

Gosh, so God doesn't have to force them? They just voluntarily skip into the fire?

Wouldn't someone have to nudge them a little, at least? Maybe a slight poke with a pitchfork?



It seems to me that you are still saying that God created imperfect people, people vulnerable to temptation and straying.......and then decided to torture them forever in fire due to that straying.

What kind of God would do that?

Tradition. Go figure.

 

[geocajun]

folks, lets keep the condescension in check. If I continue to see personal attacks or rhetorical statements which intentionally disparage God, I will be handing out formal warnings.
Lets keep this respectful, and our posts reasonable.
Prayerfully consider what your going to say before pressing the submit button.

geocajun
Philosophy & Morality Moderator
Team Love

 

[Debi1967]

Gosh, so God doesn't have to force them? They just voluntarily skip into the fire?

Wouldn't someone have to nudge them a little, at least? Maybe a slight poke with a pitchfork?



It seems to me that you are still saying that God created imperfect people, people vulnerable to temptation and straying.......and then decided to torture them forever in fire due to that straying.

What kind of God would do that?


Tradition. Go figure.

Umm I was wondering you do know that is a heretical way of thinking don't you?
Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they're tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell.