Was Judas Iscariot saved?

dnich163 · Mar 11, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
Not at all , there is no reason God should choose to save men , any men .You are assuming that
Men deserve to be saved , and that God is not a righteous judge .

It is by His power and His righteousness that He will come to judge the living and the dead..

Hello there again mmom,

I thought that it might be useful to talk about Protestant Soteriology as defined by Luther.
In his view, Jesus takes the place of the guilty and suffered the deserved punishment on their behalf.
This act, I would suggest, saves us all...sinners and saints alike.

On the parables issue, this is the whole key...interpretation..you quote me one parable, I quote you one back...does it change the way we see it unless you explain (not quote the scriptures) to me what "you" mean...what it is for you...your personal God.

It is perhaps better to stick to what we believe or perhaps to what is an idea of God that is not a contradiction.

The idea of a vengeful God was abhorrent to the fathers of the Church...... what they were trying to explain (and we are also to this day) is about the fall (what does it mean) and redemption-salvation-atonement (soteriology) and our actual relationship with God (our brother)

I look forward to our discussions and exchanges,

I hope you had a good day

David

rnmomof7 · Mar 11, 2004

dnich163 said:
Hello there again mmom,

I thought that it might be useful to talk about Protestant Soteriology as defined by Luther.
In his view, Jesus takes the place of the guilty and suffered the deserved punishment on their behalf.
This act, I would suggest, saves us all...sinners and saints alike.

That denies the creeds of the church and falls under the heresy of Universalsm . so you may want to rethink that or discuss it with your priest .

On the parables issue, this is the whole key...interpretation..you quote me one parable, I quote you one back...does it change the way we see it unless you explain (not quote the scriptures) to me what "you" mean...what it is for you...your personal God.

I assume that means you have no response

It is perhaps better to stick to what we believe or perhaps to what is an idea of God that is not a contradiction.

Did God drown all the inhabitance of this world except Noah and his family? Did God rain down fire on Sodom and kill the inhabitance ?

God is not a contradiction at all.
He will save those that are His by faith , He will cloth them in Christ and adopt them as joint heirs with Jesus .They are objects of His Mercy.

Those that are not covered in Christ will be judged by the fair judge and will be objects of His wrath .

You seem to want there to be one god of the OT and a new and improved one in the NT.

God showed great Mercy in the OT as He does in the NT . He also showed righteous judgment in the OT and in the NT.

He is one God , never changing.

The idea of a vengeful God was abhorrent to the fathers of the Church

Not to the apostles that wrote polemic letters to the early church .

Those are the only infallible teachers.

There was much false teaching and apostasy in the early church . Thus the need for the councils .

You do not hold a Catholic doctrinal position or a Christian one.
The early church burned the univeralsits

...... what they were trying to explain (and we are also to this day) is about the fall (what does it mean) and redemption-salvation-atonement (soteriology) and our actual relationship with God (our brother)

Click to expand...

I look forward to our discussions and exchanges,

I hope you had a good day

David

God had no relationship with the unsaved . He offers no second chance .

Rocinante · Mar 11, 2004

One reason is that Jesus called him a Devil.

Another is that Judas obviously was a habitual thief.

Another is that where the Bible says Judas repented......well, that Greek word is a different usage than is used for any other rendering of repentence in the NT. It really means "sorrowing." The word usually used for repenting means "change of heart."

Which indicates that Judas was only sorrowing.....NOT having a change of heart. NO true repentence.

We must also remember the Acts version of the death of Judas. It gives no sign of repentence and says he himself bought a field with the blood money and then fell to his death.

And for the Universalists........

If Universalism were true, Jesus, after identifying Judas as a Devil......would logically have taken this as a TEACHING opportunity and said, "But............due to the Father's mercy, even this scumbag will be saved, because ALL are saved."

But Jesus didn't say that.

Since Jesus left it so coldly at "Devil," I do believe we can assume that Judas was not on the good list........and has at least a few for company.

Miss Shelby · Mar 11, 2004

God had no relationship with the unsaved . He offers no second chance .

He had a relationship with Judas. Judas was in good standing with the Lord at one time I believe, and then fell away.

Michelle

Miss Shelby · Mar 11, 2004

Rocinante said:
Another is that Judas obviously was a habitual thief.

All this proves is that he was a sinner. Big deal.

Michelle

Rocinante · Mar 11, 2004

And not from just anybody......but from the poor.

Just like the Pharisees (who Jesus also tagged as children of the Devil).

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,
10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers--none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Doesn't look good for old Judas.......or any other oppressor of the poor.

Miss Shelby · Mar 11, 2004

Yeah.. but that doesn't mean that he wasn't at one time in good standing with the Lord, before such time as he placed his soul in peril through sin.

Michelle

Rocinante · Mar 11, 2004

Yeah, I imagine he was in good standing with the Lord when he was a child and hadn't started his life of crime......so what?

So for this and the several other reasons I mentioned.......it doesn't look good for old Judas.

reverend B · Mar 11, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
If that is your belief then you can not call yourself a Christian. That denies the creeds of the church and falls under the heresy of Universalsm . so you may want to rethink that .

I assume that means you have no response

Did God drown all the inhabitance of this world except Noah and his family? Did God rain down fire on Sodom and kill the inhabitance ?

God is not a contradiction at all.
He will save those that are His by faith , He will cloth them in Christ and adopt them as joint heirs with Jesus .They are objects of His Mercy.

Those that are not covered in Christ will be judged by the fair judge and will be objects of His wrath .

You seem to want there to be one god of the OT and a new and improved one in the NT.

God showed great Mercy in the OT as He does in the NT . He also showed righteous judgment in the OT and in the NT.

He is one God , never changing.

Not to the apostles that wrote polemic letters to the early church .

Those are the only infallible teachers.

There was much false teaching and apostasy in the early church . Thus the need for the councils .

You do not hold a Catholic doctrinal position or a Christian one.
The early church burned the univeralsits

God had no relationship with the unsaved . He offers no second chance .

the only infallible teacher is Christ. if i must struggle to reconcile Christ's words with the apostles, who would i lean towards. very few people, catholics or us heretic protestants, think the burning of humans by the early church was probably the best course or the one prescribed by our Lord. we are all saved by faith, and not works, so none of us can boast. there is not one that has earned the grace of God, no not one. we are all sinners. Christ came to minister to the sinner. "Do the healthy need a physician?" our job is to love. God's is to judge.

reverend B · Mar 11, 2004

God does not change, but the agreement, promise or "testament" between Him and His people is new. in the old testament, God chose his people. in the new testament the people must choose Him. on the way to being burnished into gold, on the way to the freedom from sin which is Heaven, we stumble. we become prideful, or judgemental, or greedy or........pick your weakness. we fall on our knees and ask forgiveness and stumble on. i assume that is the purpose of all those confessionals that line the catholic sanctuary.

joevberry3 · Mar 11, 2004

ROCINANTE---Jesus also called Peter Satan--does that mean Peter wasnt saved? You said that Judas wasnt saved because he was called the devil. This doesnt hold when you compare what he said to Peter.
Also, Jesus DOESNT have a personal friendship with UNSAVED people, which proves Judas had been saved at one time.
In Psalms in was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed by a "FRIEND."
Visit my website for proof that Judas was saved at one time.
www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

God Bless,
Joe

joevberry3 · Mar 11, 2004

When I was with them I kept them in thy name; those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12

Jesus KEPT them ALL, none perished except Judas.

John 17:12 -- While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. If you will notice, and check the GREEK, He kept all in his hand--but Judas was lost. God gave all of them to Jesus but only Judas became lost.
Allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.
OSAS people try to look over this verse. Jesus kept all 12 but lost Judas. No where in scripture can OSAS advocates say that Judas wasnt given to Jesus to be kept.

God Bless,
Joe

check my website for 17 more examples of people that WERE saved, but then lost.
www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

Rocinante · Mar 11, 2004

Jovberry,

Like I said, it looks pretty bad for old Judas.

I won't be visiting your website, I've seen enough FundaGelical nonsense in my time to last me forever.

Take care and God Bless you.

Rocinante · Mar 11, 2004

Mom of 7 said:

If that is your belief then you can not call yourself a Christian. That denies the creeds of the church and falls under the heresy of Universalsm . so you may want to rethink that .

Rozzi sez:

Gosh, excuse me, but you can't tell people whether or not they can call themselves Christians.

And certainly not based on some ridiculous CREEDS dreamed up by men who wanted to exclude, torture and kill other men.

Chill out, girl! Take a walk. Have some juice. Take your meds.

rnmomof7 · Mar 11, 2004

Rocinante said:
Mom of 7 said:

Rozzi sez:

Gosh, excuse me, but you can't tell people whether or not they can call themselves Christians.

And certainly not based on some ridiculous CREEDS dreamed up by men who wanted to exclude, torture and kill other men.

Chill out, girl! Take a walk. Have some juice. Take your meds.

rnmomof7 said:
If anyone denies the creeds they can not register as a Christian or post in the Christian part of the forums here , that was the purpose for my comments

See rule 6

rnmomof7 · Mar 11, 2004

Error

dnich163 · Mar 12, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
If that is your belief then you can not call yourself a Christian. That denies the creeds of the church and falls under the heresy of Universalsm . so you may want to rethink that .

This was the view of Luther...the founder of the reformation

I assume that means you have no response

No..... I was only stating that which is true about all parables..by their very nature parables can have two or three meanings

Did God drown all the inhabitance of this world except Noah and his family? Did God rain down fire on Sodom and kill the inhabitance ?

This is what the writers may have thought.... and perhaps you as well..it is down to interpretation...a bit like when we were children and thought that thunder was when God is angry

God is not a contradiction at all.

I agree with this statement.

He will save those that are His by faith , He will cloth them in Christ and adopt them as joint heirs with Jesus .They are objects of His Mercy.
Those that are not covered in Christ will be judged by the fair judge and will be objects of His wrath .
You seem to want there to be one god of the OT and a new and improved one in the NT.

No....I support the view that Jesus came to show us the new Jerusalem..a new way based on love..this is why Jesus was in so much conflictwith the righteous religious people of his time

God showed great Mercy in the OT as He does in the NT . He also showed righteous judgment in the OT and in the NT.

No problem with this statement..our interpretation might differ I suspect

He is one God , never changing.

I agree totally

Not to the apostles that wrote polemic letters to the early church .Those are the only infallible teachers.

Are you talking about the Apostolic Father's here?

There was much false teaching and apostasy in the early church . Thus the need for the councils .

Are you meaning counclis like Nicaea?

You do not hold a Catholic doctrinal position or a Christian one.

This is a bit of a surprise..how do you come to that assertion?

The early church burned the univeralsits

I have to admit I don't quite know what you mean by universalist in religious terms..perhaps you could explain please.
There have been a lot of things carried out in the name of God which I would say are wrong...I'm not too happy with the idea of killing Gods creation

God had no relationship with the unsaved . He offers no second chance

I say this is not correct. If God is creator of all that is.....then he has a relationship with us.
You have to consider carefully what you mean by a "second chance"

David

Rocinante · Mar 12, 2004

Momof 7 said:

If you deny the creeds you may not post in this section

Rozzi sez:

Am I not in the "Liberal Theology" section?

Smell the coffee, Mom. The "Creeds" are invalid because they were dreamed up by evil men who wanted to exclude, torture and murder "heretics."

The only real creed is, "Jesus is Lord."

That's Liberal Theology.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Mar 12, 2004

dnich163 said:
I believe this to be true also. I said in my earlier post that when we come face to face with God it will be impossible for us to resist..we won't want to anyway.

The issue here would then be ...."when are we saved?"

I also believe that we cannot be beyond the saving redemption of God...this would make God very impotent altogether.

David

The problem here is, is that no one was "saved" until the day of pentacost... at least not saved by grace cause the holy spirit did come to hear until, like I said, the day of pentacost. However, people did of course go to heaven, but that was based on OT laws, which Judas still would have been under.

Also considering the fact that Judas was possed by satan, I find it nearly impossible to beliee that Judas went to heaven.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Mar 12, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
If you deny the creeds you may not post in this section

Deny the creeds of what????

You mayb be a libral who follows these "creeds" but there are librals who do not.... including myself. Don't tell people they are christians or not, I do beleive that is called judging ones heart, which I do beleive on God can do that.

Was Judas Iscariot saved?

dnich163

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