Was Judas Iscariot saved?

[dnich163]

God was always and is always a God of JUSTICE and MERCY..........................Those that would run from the God of the Bible may be the tares that God will pull up out of the church in the final judgment and throw into the fire.

Let me see now............. this God of Love that wants us to love him and our neighbour as ourselves........at the same time as telling us he love us so much he sent his only son to die for our sins............. is now going to let people burn in hell for eternity!

The justice you talk about is man's justice...not that of God

Love itself cannot be built on a basis of fear which is what you preach here.

I think you take the line of the Pharisees here, most people would run away from the God you portray.

I'm glad I don't know this God of retribution and vengeance.

David

 

[cbk]

I have never said Judas IS saved.

Nor have I stated that he is NOT saved.

I will study the matter and will know the correct answer on judgement day... Till then!

 

[rnmomof7]

Let me see now............. this God of Love that wants us to love him and our neighbour as ourselves........at the same time as telling us he love us so much he sent his only son to die for our sins............. is now going to let people burn in hell for eternity!

I think it might be beneficial for you to study the attributes of God. It seems that you choose only to see love , when there is much more to God than that .

The Bible clearly tells us that all men will not be saved. It tells us that God pours out His wrath on those that rebel against His authority, and fail to repent and give Him glory

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and [/u]repented not of their deeds.

Rev 14:7** Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. [/color]

There is a judgment coming and men will be thrown into eternal fire. That is the justice of God.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



This should bring every man to fall on his face before God,the righteous judge that will give to every man his due.

The justice you talk about is man's justice...not that of God

Love itself cannot be built on a basis of fear which is what you preach here.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom "
Arrogant man has assured himself that God will over look his rebellion and in the end relent and save. That is not the message of the bible. Christ spoke more of hades and punishment than He did heaven .

I think you take the line of the Pharisees here, most people would run away from the God you portray.

I'm glad I don't know this God of retribution and vengeance.

David

David,
Mercy can not exist outside of Justice.

Jesus came to be the propitiation (wrath bearer) for those that will come to the cross.
Man will receive the Justice of God . That will be salvation for some (that are in Christ ) and condemnation for those that are not.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


God is Holy, God is love, God is justice , God is Mercy , God is immutable .

He is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow . He does not change .

We need to love Him for all He is , not just those attributes that make us comfortable.

Today it is popular to teach a weak gospel that tickles the ears of men , and that give a false comfort.
We need to read and teach the whole council of God, not the redacted copy that is used to draw men , not trusting that Paul is correct ...it is the gospel that brings faith not the soft words of men .

David what are you saved from?

 

[dnich163]

David what are you saved from?

I'm saved from a misinterpretation of God.

My understanding of this idea of a God of wrath, vengeance and retribution is that at times these passages were to reflect the "all powerful and almighty God"....mankind doesn't have the vocabulary to actually describe God in all his fullness...and not to show a God who in humanly terms is strong.

This is actually a weakness. The real strength is in loving those who hate us, in serving the lowest of the low, just as Jesus did with his preference for the poor...this was not just the poor financially but the poor in spirit..and what struggles do the poor in spirit have?
They struggle with belief, both in themselves, others and God.

Perhaps if you really take time to consider the following in your heart and let me know what you think and feel.

God is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing...he just is. (I think you will agree here)
If I/we/anybody comes..or when hopefully.....before God in all his majesty, goodness and glory which is beyond our understanding.....do you really think at that face to face with total completeness...that ordinary man will have the ability or the will or desire to reject God?

My answer is no chance!!.....we will be so filled with the holy spirit that our hearts will leap with joy and bells will ring out..we will repent then at not loving God soon enough, long enough, well enough, hard enough and enough enough...what was it Augustine said when he came to encounter the Lord.."too late I have loved you Lord!!"

I believe that at that time we will want to cleanse ourselves when we see God in all his majesty and glory..this will be a purgatory..self inflicted.....when we really come to know the real true living God who is beyond our comprehension, this glorious mystery.

A God of vengeance and killing justifies martyrdom..this is what the suicide bombers believe..killing for a cause can take us/people to heaven.

This is only a small reason why I believe that the God of vengeance, wrath and hatred is wrong.

Thomas Aquinas said in his Summae that God is a God of simplicity, and that singular simplicity is love, love which overcomes all.

And God's love be with you and yours my friend.

David

 

[rnmomof7]

David I did not realize you were not a Protestant.
We have a completely different doctrinal base on salvation

 

[dnich163]

David I did not realize you were not a Protestant.
We have a completely different doctrinal base on salvation

Actually I was born and raised Protestant, but became Catholic for lust...I was getting married and living in west central Scotland, decided to convert for a number of reasons.

Strangely enough, this idea of a difference in Catholic/Protestant theology is not so clear when we study the history of the reformation and the reasons behind people like Luther and Ignatius for example.

They were both around at the same time, Calvin actually studied in the same university as Ignatius, and the spirituality of Luther and Ignatius is very very similiar.

Also, the most famous Protestant theologian of the last century is Karl Barth.
He took part in Vatican 2 and one of his favourite Theologians who he admired was none other than Thomas Aquinas, regarded as the great doctor of the Catholic church.

So there we have it, let us celebrate that which draws us together...this search for God, this shared centrality.

David

 

[rnmomof7]

Actually I was born and raised Protestant, but became Catholic for lust...I was getting married and living in west central Scotland, decided to convert for a number of reasons.

Strangely enough, this idea of a difference in Catholic/Protestant theology is not so clear when we study the history of the reformation and the reasons behind people like Luther and Ignatius for example.

They were both around at the same time, Calvin actually studied in the same university as Ignatius, and the spirituality of Luther and Ignatius is very very similiar.

Also, the most famous Protestant theologian of the last century is Karl Barth.
He took part in Vatican 2 and one of his favourite Theologians who he admired was none other than Thomas Aquinas, regarded as the great doctor of the Catholic church.

So there we have it, let us celebrate that which draws us together...this search for God, this shared centrality.

David

There is a very clear demarkation between the reformers and the church.
Yes there were many of the early reformers that were trained in the church , but they left the church because of significant differences .

Actually the doctrinal differences are manifest. We hold a completely different Soteriology , as can be seen in our exchange .

I am drawn to my faith by what scripture teaches not external influences .
Those that follow the reformers are still under the curses of trent , no matter who attended Vatican 2 :>))

We can celebrate those things we hold in common , while holding fast to the differences

 

[Van Arsdale]

About this Judas discussion: What about these following Scriptures? These should answer any questions about this discussion entirely, right? Thanks

1Jn3:6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

 

[dnich163]

About this Judas discussion: What about these following Scriptures? These should answer any questions about this discussion entirely, right?................................... The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work......

Morning Van,

I feel it is important to acknowledge that there is a differentiation between destroying the work of the sinner and destroying the sinner himself.
This is an important distinction.
David

 

[rnmomof7]

Morning Van,

I feel it is important to acknowledge that there is a differentiation between destroying the work of the sinner and destroying the sinner himself.
This is an important distinction.
David

Do you have scripture on that ?

 

[dnich163]

Do you have scripture on that ?

It's quoted by Van in the post directly above mine...I was responding to the scripture and the "interpretation" of it.

David

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I beleive judas iscariot to have been taken over by satan... if this is so, then Judas did not make it to heaven.

Been reading the posts and I beloeive this post is still relevant...

 

[Miss Shelby]

I hope he went to heaven. I always root for the underdog.

Michelle

 

[rnmomof7]

It's quoted by Van in the post directly above mine...I was responding to the scripture and the "interpretation" of it.

David

You wrote

I feel it is important to acknowledge that there is a differentiation between destroying the work of the sinner and destroying the sinner himself.
This is an important distinction

Van said that if you are saved you do not sin again.

I believe he was answering the question was Judas saved? If he was he would not have betrayed Christ or killed himself

BTW

There is no where in scripture that says God hates the sin but loves the sinner.

 

[reverend B]

I have been thinking of this very topic of late and have come to no final answer nor read one that finalizes it for me in either direction. one interesting point that blurs it for me is when the temple descends in Rev. 21 it is supported by 12 foundations representing the 12 apostles. Who is the 12th? is it Judas? is it Paul? since Christ knew exactly what would happen to Him when He came, Judas was a vital part of that plan. was he put there for the purpose? in other words, was he a soldier that fell on his sword for the greater good? was the kiss he gave Christ not just a sign to the posse but a farewell. Mt 26:47 refers to him as "...one of the twelve,...". or was he just what he appears to be; a traitor. i am not a rev. who knows all. there are many mysteries, and this is one for me. the apostles are the original twelve by conventional wisdom.
great discussion, though. let's keep it friendly.

your in Christ

 

[dnich163]

There is no where in scripture that says God hates the sin but loves the sinner.

In the post that Van listed just before mine, Is Van not quoting from John?

In the parable of the rich man who wanted to follow Jesus, and sought him out to ask how to do it, Jesus said to give up all that he had and follow him.
The rich man couldn't do it.

When the man turned away from Jesus, Jesus looked at him......and "loved him"

I suggest that this is exactly what this parable is about...loving the sinner, but hating the sin.

What say you friend?

David

 

[dnich163]

Van said that if you are saved you do not sin again.

I believe this to be true also. I said in my earlier post that when we come face to face with God it will be impossible for us to resist..we won't want to anyway.

The issue here would then be ...."when are we saved?"

I also believe that we cannot be beyond the saving redemption of God...this would make God very impotent altogether.

David

 

[rnmomof7]

I have been thinking of this very topic of late and have come to no final answer nor read one that finalizes it for me in either direction. one interesting point that blurs it for me is when the temple descends in Rev. 21 it is supported by 12 foundations representing the 12 apostles. Who is the 12th? is it Judas? is it Paul? since Christ knew exactly what would happen to Him when He came, Judas was a vital part of that plan. was he put there for the purpose? in other words, was he a soldier that fell on his sword for the greater good? was the kiss he gave Christ not just a sign to the posse but a farewell. Mt 26:47 refers to him as "...one of the twelve,...". or was he just what he appears to be; a traitor. i am not a rev. who knows all. there are many mysteries, and this is one for me. the apostles are the original twelve by conventional wisdom.
great discussion, though. let's keep it friendly.


your in Christ

Matthias was selected as the 12th apostle , by the 11 by lots.

 

[rnmomof7]

I have been thinking of this very topic of late and have come to no final answer nor read one that finalizes it for me in either direction. one interesting point that blurs it for me is when the temple descends in Rev. 21 it is supported by 12 foundations representing the 12 apostles. Who is the 12th? is it Judas? is it Paul? since Christ knew exactly what would happen to Him when He came, Judas was a vital part of that plan. was he put there for the purpose? in other words, was he a soldier that fell on his sword for the greater good? was the kiss he gave Christ not just a sign to the posse but a farewell. Mt 26:47 refers to him as "...one of the twelve,...". or was he just what he appears to be; a traitor. i am not a rev. who knows all. there are many mysteries, and this is one for me. the apostles are the original twelve by conventional wisdom.
great discussion, though. let's keep it friendly.

your in Christ

Judas was ordained by God for this time. Remember that Jesus knew that he was the son of perdition .

I would not give him the credit to say he fell on his sword. That would make him "Gold Heart" material as a hero
. Even though ordained of God for this purpose , he sill willfully chose to sell Christ for his own purposes . (Greed and Power )

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe this to be true also. I said in my earlier post that when we come face to face with God it will be impossible for us to resist..we won't want to anyway.

NO CHRISTIAN faith believes there is a second chance after you die.
Show me a scripture that says that .

Read Luke 16



The reprobate will never choose to repent. Remember the men that stood face to face with Jesus and spit at Him and mocked Him and crowned Him with thorns .

I have quoted to you Revelation

Rev 9:20** And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Neither the face of the Savior and judge nor the punishment levied in the last days will cause men that hate God , love Him.

They will one day bow in submission , they will confess His Lordship, because they see His Sovereignty . It will not be out of love or repentance .

The issue here would then be ...."when are we saved?"

We are saved when we repent and believe.(Mar 1:15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


.

I also believe that we cannot be beyond the saving redemption of God...this would make God very impotent altogether.

David

Not at all , there is no reason God should choose to save men , any men .You are assuming that
Men deserve to be saved , and that God is not a righteous judge .

It is by His power and His righteousness that He will come to judge the living and the dead..


Explain the parable of the Wheat and the Tares for me
.