Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

[Baby Cottontail]

I can understand why you would come to that conclusion. You should believe it unless you are shown otherwise.

Thank you. I do believe it.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I see. That makes sense. But, how does the Trinity work? I don't quite fully understand the trinity.

Just what is it that you don't understand about the Trinity, and of course no one fully understand the Godhead but there are those things that are told in the scripture, so as precise as possible what is puzzling you?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

That's impossible.
Jehovah said HE is the source of Jesus' words, and Jesus says that his Father, (his God), is the source of the words he spoke. Jesus makes it even MORE clear, when he states that he is NOT the source of the words.
The theory you express isn't Scriptural, and contradicts God's creation.

You assume that Jehovah = only the Father. You are using that assumption to claim that Jesus can't be Jehovah. Of course, from that perspective, that would be the only conclusion to make.

However, while the Father is Jehovah, He is NOT the only Person who is Jehovah.
Jesus is Jehovah.
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah as well.
The whole triune God is Jehovah.

The name "Jehovah" doesn't even appear in the NT. The only translation that uses it in the NT is the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT. It only appears in their translation because they added it in to make their theology agree with the Bible -- to make it appear as if Jehovah is only the Father, and because they believe they have to use the name "Jehovah" for God.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

There is absolutely no awareness in the OT that God is trine. On the contrary, the OT states that God is Echad, One.

I heard that "echad" could mean a plural unity -- a united one. I don't know Hebrew, so I'm only telling you what I have heard.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

There is absolutely no awareness in the OT that God is triune. On the contrary, the OT states that God is Echad, One.

That is not actually true. Isa 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:‘I am the First and I am the Last;Besides Me there is no God. The King of Israel and his Redeemer then the I am the First and I am the Last, back to Besides Me there is no God. Surely 2 of Godhead here in union with one another. And as early as Gen 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And there are quite a few more.

 

[Meowzltov]

I heard that "echad" could mean a plural unity -- a united one. I don't know Hebrew, so I'm only telling you what I have heard.

No, echad simply means one. Hear O Israel, the LORD your God the LORD is ONE.

 

[Meowzltov]

That is not actually true. Isa 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:‘I am the First and I am the Last;Besides Me there is no God. The King of Israel and his Redeemer then the I am the First and I am the Last, back to Besides Me there is no God. Surely 2 of Godhead here in union with one another. And as early as Gen 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And there are quite a few more.

None of these indicates a plural God. None. You are reading INTO the Tanach what you know as a Christian.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

No, echad simply means one. Hear O Israel, the LORD your God the LORD is ONE.

Even if it means only a single "one," then that does nothing to disprove the Trinity. Since we don't believe in three Gods, God would still be One, as He would still be one God.

There are plenty of verses in the OT which suggest that YHWH could be more than one Person, yet still one God, and one Being.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

That's impossible.
Jehovah said HE is the source of Jesus' words, and Jesus says that his Father, (his God), is the source of the words he spoke. Jesus makes it even MORE clear, when he states that he is NOT the source of the words.
The theory you express isn't Scriptural, and contradicts God's creation.

You keep says it is "impossible" that Jesus Christ is also YAHWEH? Is this based on the Teaching of the Holy Bible, or your personal theology? In Genesis 24:19, we have TWO Persons Who are called YAHWEH (One was on earth with Abraham, see chapter 18). Care to explain this? In the Old Testament prophecy of John the Baptist, as the "Forerunner" to Jesus Christ (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 4:5-6), where John is spoken of going before YAHWEH. In the Gospels, Matthew 3:3, Luke 1:16-18, etc, this fulfillment is in Jesus Christ, Who is this "YAHWEH" Who was to come. Compare Malachi 4:5-6, with Luke 1:76, and you will very clearly see that Jesus Christ is YAHWEH/JEHOVAH. This, my friend is the plain teaching of the Holy Bible!

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

None of these indicates a plural God. None. You are reading INTO the Tanach what you know as a Christian.

Actually I was answering someone who said the triune God is not mentioned in the OT, so it really is you who is suggesting I was trying to indicate a plural God. I was simply showing that Godhead is mentioned and do believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence but are the Trinity. Here O Israel the Lord our God is one.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

None of these indicates a plural God. None. You are reading INTO the Tanach what you know as a Christian.

The Hebrew for God is "elohim", which is masculine, PLURAL. In Genesis 1:26, we read, "let US make man in OUR image", where the PLURAL is used. Genesis 1:1, says "in the beginning ELOHIM Created...". Ecclesiastes 12:1 says, "Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth". Again the PLURAL is used. You simply cannot dismiss what the Bible says very clearly, because it does not agree with your understanding! John 1:1, says, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The English "with" is the Greek "pros", that is, "face to face", or "besides another". We have TWO Who are EQUALLY DEITY. In Matthew 28:19, we read, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The word "Name" is in the SINGULAR, with can only be YAHWEH. "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit", are prefixed with the definite article, showing Their Distinction as PERSONS, and Unity, as GOD!

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

I heard that "echad" could mean a plural unity -- a united one. I don't know Hebrew, so I'm only telling you what I have heard.

You heard wrong. "echad", like the Greek "hen" in John 10:30, is "singular neuter", which is speaking of the "Unity of Essence", as to the "Being of the Godhead". In John 10:30, "We are", is the masculine plural, denoting plurality of Persons, "Father" and "I", Jesus Christ.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

You keep says it is "impossible" that Jesus Christ is also YAHWEH? Is this based on the Teaching of the Holy Bible, or your personal theology? In Genesis 24:19, we have TWO Persons Who are called YAHWEH (One was on earth with Abraham, see chapter 18). Care to explain this? In the Old Testament prophecy of John the Baptist, as the "Forerunner" to Jesus Christ (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 4:5-6), where John is spoken of going before YAHWEH. In the Gospels, Matthew 3:3, Luke 1:16-18, etc, this fulfillment is in Jesus Christ, Who is this "YAHWEH" Who was to come. Compare Malachi 4:5-6, with Luke 1:76, and you will very clearly see that Jesus Christ is YAHWEH/JEHOVAH. This, my friend is the plain teaching of the Holy Bible!

You are so right on, that is the requirement of faith, that one must believe to be saved, Rom 10:9-13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Ps 2:6-12
“Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion. ”7 “I will declare the decree:The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little .Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

You are so right on, that is the requirement of faith, that one must believe to be saved, Rom 10:9-13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Thanks for sharing this. The quotation is from Joel 2:32, "Then everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved", which Paul here freely uses for Jesus Christ, which would be impossible if He were not YAHWEH/JEHOVAH!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

You heard wrong. "echad", like the Greek "hen" in John 10:30, is "singular neuter", which is speaking of the "Unity of Essence", as to the "Being of the Godhead". In John 10:30, "We are", is the masculine plural, denoting plurality of Persons, "Father" and "I", Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't know the biblical languages. I just hear what other people say that are more knowledgable than I.

 

[Dartman]

You assume that Jehovah = only the Father.

Of course. The more than 5000 times it is used in the OT, makes it VERY clear, it is Elohiym's personal name.
Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Jehovah is The supreme being, the Creator, and Jesus is His servant;

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Of course. The more than 5000 times it is used in the OT, makes it VERY clear, it is Elohiym's personal name.
Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Jehovah is The supreme being, the Creator, and Jesus is His servant;

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

I don't deny that Jehovah is God's name in the OT.

However, I don't limit that name to just that of the Father. I agree that Jehovah is the Supreme Being, and the Creator.

However, I believe that Jesus is also Jehovah. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. One God. One Being.

Jesus is not some other Being. He is Jehovah.

Jesus is not merely a Servant.

Dartman, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[Dartman]

I don't deny that Jehovah is God's name in the OT.

However, I don't limit that name to just that of the Father. I agree that Jehovah is the Supreme Being, and the Creator.

However, I believe that Jesus is also Jehovah. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. One God. One Being.

Jesus is not some other Being. He is Jehovah.

Jesus is not merely a Servant.

Dartman, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

No I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Their movement split from us in the 1800's. I am a member of the Church of God, which the Catholics split from beginning in apostolic times, and then began persecuting my brothers and sisters. Due to the fact that history is written by the victors, you will ONLY find my doctrines being CLEARLY, and SIMPLY stated in the New Testament, and being PREACHED in EVERY SERMON IN THE BOOK OF ACTS.

You will find my doctrines being argued AGAINST by the so called "Church Fathers", while you will find my doctrines being restated in the so called "Apostolic Creed".

And you will find those who share my beliefs listed as "heretics" being burned, stoned, hung, excommunicated, etc., by the "mainstream" Churches.


The theory you expound above is utterly ludicrous.
There is NO WAY two beings can be the same being!
This ludicrous theory defies God's creation we can see around us every day, and which Paul instructs us to see as a witness of God's attributes! (Rom 1:20)
This ludicrous theory defies the words of Jesus, the apostles, Jehovah and all His holy prophets, that Jesus' GOD is "the ONLY true God", that "there is but ONE God ... THE FATHER", that "there is ONE God, and ONE mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus!!

So, in the clear, obvious, verifiable face of STATED Scripture, and in the clear, obvious, verifiable face of REALITY .... you are going to need to provide OUTSTANDING, CLEAR and SIMPLE statements of Scripture to offset this VAST mountain of proof ..... and you've got a tiny handful of texts taken out of context, that simply NEVER .... EVER state your doctrine.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

No I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Their movement split from us in the 1800's. I am a member of the Church of God, which the Catholics split from beginning in apostolic times, and then began persecuting my brothers and sisters. Due to the fact that history is written by the victors, you will ONLY find my doctrines being CLEARLY, and SIMPLY stated in the New Testament, and being PREACHED in EVERY SERMON IN THE BOOK OF ACTS.

You will find my doctrines being argued AGAINST by the so called "Church Fathers", while you will find my doctrines being restated in the so called "Apostolic Creed".

And you will find those who share my beliefs listed as "heretics" being burned, stoned, hung, excommunicated, etc., by the "mainstream" Churches.


The theory you expound above is utterly ludicrous.
There is NO WAY two beings can be the same being!
This ludicrous theory defies God's creation we can see around us every day, and which Paul instructs us to see as a witness of God's attributes! (Rom 1:20)
This ludicrous theory defies the words of Jesus, the apostles, Jehovah and all His holy prophets, that Jesus' GOD is "the ONLY true God", that "there is but ONE God ... THE FATHER", that "there is ONE God, and ONE mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus!!

So, in the clear, obvious, verifiable face of STATED Scripture, and in the clear, obvious, verifiable face of REALITY .... you are going to need to provide OUTSTANDING, CLEAR and SIMPLE statements of Scripture to offset this VAST mountain of proof ..... and you've got a tiny handful of texts taken out of context, that simply NEVER .... EVER state your doctrine.

Thanks for answering my question.

Which of these groups is your church? I'd just like a better understanding of where you are coming from:
Church of God - Wikipedia

If none of those, could you please send me a private message with a link to your church's website, or denomination's website? Thanks.

Many Christian groups have been persecuted by other Christian groups due to differences of beliefs. Some of my ancestors were killed and imprisoned, too. (Some of my ancestors were Mennonites.)

It sounds like you are very angry by the way that those who held to your theology were treated by other Christians.

I didn't say that there were two Beings. I have constantly said three Persons. There is only one Being.

As I have already engaged with you in discussion in another thread that is now locked, I don't believe there is any way that I can convince you of the Trinity. You are dead set against believing it, and you have already decided against it. I believe that only the Holy Spirit can change your mind.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Hebrew for God is "elohim", which is masculine, PLURAL.

That's like saying DEER is plural. DEER can be singular or plural. Elohim can mean gods (plural) or it can mean God (singular, formal).