Was God's choosing Israel an act of aparteid...

[Peacemaker1]

There is no love outside of the Holy Spirit, no love in in the heart of those who do not receive the love of God.

Loving sinners by sinners, is the wicked loving the wicked, and thy do so as told, to receive the same back, it is done for selfish reasons and we are taught belief in Jesus Christ is love that seeks not her own.

Yes you guys talk for years daily on these forums, but listen for a while.


You are using tis scripture, so hear it, look at it a bit more.



The righteousness that the law if it was of faith, tells us to do all we wish for ourselves, on others, sinners cannot do that, for sin is the transgression of the law and those who transgress the law are not of faith.

Look at the words, see what is MISSING, sinners are doing only superficially, to receive all they give out, not to be merciful, as they deny Gods mercy in Christ, to give freely, sinners cannot do good, they hate their enemies, why cant you recognise Israel is the example to the world of this right now.



Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[Peacemaker1]

How do you then account for the verse which clearly says that even sinners Agape those who Agape them ???

Love without mercy, love without doing good, love and hate their enemies, love without charity which seeks not her own, love without believing we are freely given, and to then FREELY GIVE.



1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

 

[Peacemaker1]

Anyone who sees what Israel is doing right now, who thinks they love, are hating their enemies, that is NOT THE LOVE OF GOD.


The true and only love of God ( for God is love) is laying HIs life don for us WHILE WE WERE YET ENEMIES.


Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Israel is supposed to have love, according to Jewish believers, yet Israel has hatred, and instead of belief in God, which is belief that God showed HIs love towards us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS/ENEMIES, Israel throws that away and hates its enemies instead, the judgement is on itself, on Israel from its own actions and choices.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Loving sinners by sinners, is the wicked loving the wicked, and thy do so as told, to receive the same back, it is done for selfish reasons and we are taught belief in Jesus Christ is love that seeks not her own.

Check the Greek - the word is Agape - a word reserved for God's Love.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Check the Greek - the word is Agape - a word reserved for God's Love.

The Greeks seek wisdom of this world, questions of words is not the faith.


Love of sinners is without mercy, without good, without righteousness ( there is no righteousness as the righteousness of Christ justifies) so what love of God is left in those same wicked evil hearts of unbelief.

But that is why this is testified about them below..




Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


1 Timothy 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

 

[Peacemaker1]

You sure show a good belief in God by maintaining sinners have Gods own love in them, and yet they are open graves, so how do you reflect that with God exactly all should wonder, about you are showing why Israel thinks it does not need Jesus Christ desperately for all things good, as it has all bad instead. ( thanks for helping this testimony)

 

[Peacemaker1]

Now Israel has feet that are swift in shedding blood, and the way of peace they have not known. ( that proves why the Messiah is denied by Israel, so the world can see they fulfil Gods words and deny Him that bought them/spoken lies against Him, transgressed against Him/destruction unto them for they have fled from the Lord.)



Hosea 7:13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Peacemaker1]

I advise anyone reading to read those scriptures very carefully, the saving of the soul is in them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How about we are accountable to Scripture, then form our theology second...

Once again.

This is Scripture and it cannot be broken.

Luke 6:32

New American Standard Bible
​

32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Agape is the word used in the original text carries the meaning of unselfish Love.

It is not honest to ignore such scriptures.

Try reading Scripture for 5 years or more first - then let your theology form.

Good theology does not ignore verses.

Now if you want to understand how such a verse melds with the verses you quote, I can help with that as well.

Without God's love the whole universe would immediately collapse again into chaos.

Without Love the whole notion of family would not exist.

Mankind was made in the image of God - not just believers.

Common Grace keeps life going - the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Jesus did not judge the unsaved - He loved them.

Jesus is the friend of sinners.

Matthew 11:19

New American Standard Bible
​

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a heavy drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ And yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

 

[Hvizsgyak]

It seems that the thinking of the modern world, is that God favouring one nation over another is somehow immoral.

Under the divided attitudes among Christians runs the demand that all men are equal and all nations are equal before God.

This is not the revealed viewpoint we read in Scripture.

This seems to be a major driver of antisemitic sentiment.

Paul addressed this issue in Romans 9

And we read this in Genesis...

12 Now the Lord said to Abram,

“Go from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Was God sinning in choosing one nation over another ?

There is no way God choosing Israel over other nations could be looked upon as apartheid. The word apartheid wasn't used as a word until about 1929 in Africa. A difference of over 4000 years .

 

[Peacemaker1]

How about we are accountable to Scripture, then form our theology second...

Once again.

This is Scripture and it cannot be broken.

Luke 6:32​

​

New American Standard Bible​

​

32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Agape is the word used in the original text carries the meaning of unselfish Love.



Without God's love the whole universe would immediately collapse again into chaos.

Without Love the whole notion of family would not exist.

Mankind was made in the image of God - not just believers.

Common Grace keeps life going - the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Jesus did not judge the unsaved - He loved them.

Jesus is the friend of sinners.

Matthew 11:19​

​

New American Standard Bible​

​

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a heavy drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ And yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Sinners love to receive the same again, how do you understand that as unselfish love ?


Jesus told the same sinners He knows the love of God is NOT IN THEM, because HIS WORD HAS NO PLACE IN THEM, Israel is this example, they do not search their own scriptures which testify of belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. ( to be made free from sin/selfishness)

Israel believes people who speak in their own name, not in Jesus Christ sent in the Fathers name.

Moses accuses Israel, because Israel doe not even believe in Moses who spoke of Jesus.

Jesus tells the Jews who thought they believed on Him, if they continued in His word they would be His disciples, ( to do more than sinners who selfishly do all that they do in all of this world)

This is to know the truth to set you free, but Israels takes offence with the stumblingstone and answers they were never in bondage to any man, Jesus tells the sinners who love sinners, that they who commit sin are the servants of sin, ( servants of the devil) but now Israel sought to kill Christ, as HIS WORD HAD NO PLACE ION THEM.


John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Peacemaker1]

How about we are accountable to Scripture, then form our theology second...

Once again.

This is Scripture and it cannot be broken.

Luke 6:32​

​

New American Standard Bible​

​

32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Agape is the word used in the original text carries the meaning of unselfish Love.

It is not honest to ignore such scriptures.

Try reading Scripture for 5 years or more first - then let your theology form.

Good theology does not ignore verses.

Now if you want to understand how such a verse melds with the verses you quote, I can help with that as well.

Without God's love the whole universe would immediately collapse again into chaos.

Without Love the whole notion of family would not exist.

Mankind was made in the image of God - not just believers.

Common Grace keeps life going - the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Jesus did not judge the unsaved - He loved them.

Jesus is the friend of sinners.

Matthew 11:19​

​

New American Standard Bible​

​

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a heavy drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ And yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

I will answer also for you what unselfish love is to sinners, it is to receive the same love again, that is unselfish to sinners, see here for proof..



Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!





Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not to remain sinners in selfish love, although they consider that unselfish to themselves.



Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Carl Emerson]

All good - just don't forget to snip the verse out...

Theology rules over Scripture again I guess...

Have a great day.

 

[Peacemaker1]

All good - just don't forget to snip the verse out...

Theology rules over Scripture again I guess...

Have a great day.

Governments and people without Jesus Christ in them are in darkness, time to come out of that darkness..

They do not come to the light as they prefer evil/darkness.

Read the scripture which says that Israel who now hates their brother, is in darkness and does not know where it is walking, because darkness has blinded their eyes.

Reading these scriptures shows how much theology you will be turning away from. ( it wont take 5 years to show this, it is immediately)




John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.


1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

 

[Peacemaker1]

To finish then the testimony, Israel was chosen to be the example that all people are, without Jesus Christ, no laying of their life down, but taking of life, no truthfulness, but plenty of everything else.

 

[Carl Emerson]

To finish then the testimony, Israel was chosen to be the example that all people are, without Jesus Christ, no laying of their life down, but taking of life, no truthfulness, but plenty of everything else.

Well unless I misunderstand your position it is blatantly antisemitic...

If you were correct there would be no such thing as a Messianic Jew.

Funny that - the early church were mainly Jews.

Romans 11
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Doesn't that apply to the whole of humanity...

Yet there are levels of Evil and to put Israel and Hamas in the same basket doesnt cut it for me.

And yet, Israel's government is also quite fine with attacking innocent Jewish people if those Jewish people are critical of Israel.

As state sponsored terrorism is still terrorism.
When a government engages in terrorism, then it becomes no different than any other terrorist organization.

And if "terrorism" ends up something we only apply to "those people we don't like", then it stops having any meaning, and we become moral relativists who only want to make ourselves good.

Warning, the following is very disturbing. If acts of violence is something you want to avoid seeing, then do not watch.

The reality is that the Israeli government is not a valid democratic government. Freedom of speech is one of the fundamental freedoms of any free society. If criticism of your government gets you in trouble, then you are living under an authoritarian regime.

The Israeli government is not any better than Hamas. The only difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel benefits from majority international recognition.

They are in the same basket. They are equally evil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

And yet, Israel's government is also quite fine with attacking innocent Jewish people if those Jewish people are critical of Israel.

As state sponsored terrorism is still terrorism.
When a government engages in terrorism, then it becomes no different than any other terrorist organization.

And if "terrorism" ends up something we only apply to "those people we don't like", then it stops having any meaning, and we become moral relativists who only want to make ourselves good.

Warning, the following is very disturbing. If acts of violence is something you want to avoid seeing, then do not watch.

The reality is that the Israeli government is not a valid democratic government. Freedom of speech is one of the fundamental freedoms of any free society. If criticism of your government gets you in trouble, then you are living under an authoritarian regime.

The Israeli government is not any better than Hamas. The only difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel benefits from majority international recognition.

They are in the same basket. They are equally evil.

-CryptoLutheran

Does this event reflect official Israeli Govt policy or is it a rouge event ?

Please give evidence with your answer.

By the way - Paul was pretty wicked - and was chosen...

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does this event reflect official Israeli Govt policy or is it a rouge event ?

In this case it appears to be an issue among certain anti-Zionist Haredi Jews who have a history of being inflammatory, and who have been violent in the past. Without further context it is actually impossible to know the full story.

As such I may have allowed myself to be uncritical in posting the video. I remain discomforted by the idea of police violence; but without context it is impossible to know the full story of this video.

Please give evidence with your answer.

Neturei Karta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given the groups activities, I can't say I am less bothered by police violence; but I can recognize that without additional context it is impossible to know the full story that the video only provides a de-contextualized piece of.

By the way - Paul was pretty wicked - and was chosen...

God chose the Jewish people to be His Covenant people. But that has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel. So "chosenness" is irrelevant when talking about the modern secular entity known as Israel.

To bring the analogy back to Paul. St. Paul of Tarsus, whose birth name was Saul, was a man chosen by our Lord to be an apostle. That doesn't apply to just anyone who calls themselves "Paul". Paul McCartney, as an example, certainly isn't who Jesus chose to be apostle to the Gentiles.

Just because there is a modern state in the Levant called "Israel" doesn't make it the same thing as what existed after God delivered His people out of Egypt, made His Covenant with them at the base of the mountain in Sinai giving them the Torah and calling them to be His people in the land of Canaan which was promised to Abraham centuries earlier. That political entity ceased to exist a long time ago, and hasn't existed since. The modern state of Israel isn't the Covenant Nation anymore than Paul McCartney is the Apostle who wrote over half of the New Testament.

-CryptoLutheran