Was God Surprised by What Happened in the Garden?

[jimmyjimmy]

Was He caught off guard by Adam's rebellion, or did He expect it?

If He knew it would happen, why did He create man?

If He didn't know it would happen, why didn't He?

 

[Ken Rank]

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God is eternal... beyond time... therefore He knew when it started how it would end. He is surprised by nothing.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Was He caught off guard by Adam's rebellion, or did He expect it?

He expected it: 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 46:10 In fact, every event in the garden was planned by Him; just as every event to ever transpire is planned by Him: Amos 3:6, Daniel 4:35

If He knew it would happen, why did He create man?

To enjoy all things, in conclusion; to have all pleasure, in perfection: Revelation 4:11

Imagine a potter who is a perfectionist, and cannot tolerate imperfection. How does that potter ever create pottery, since all creations of pottery must begin in imperfection and will not achieve perfection until the last touch? The potter can never create since his nature is to hate imperfection. Thus the potter must have some way to satisfy his requirement for perfection before he can begin creating pottery which goes from imperfect to perfect. He must be able to tolerate the imperfect if ever he wishes to create pottery.

It is self-sacrifice of Christ that allowed the Potter to not impute imperfection to His creation so that He may bring it into perfection without having to destroy it in the imperfect state.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

He expected it: 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 46:10 In fact, every event in the garden was planned by Him; just as every event to ever transpire is planned by Him: Amos 3:6, Daniel 4:35



To enjoy all things, in conclusion; to have all pleasure, in perfection: Revelation 4:11

Imagine a potter who is a perfectionist, and cannot tolerate imperfection. How does that potter ever create pottery, since all creations of pottery must begin in imperfection and will not achieve perfection until the last touch? The potter can never create since his nature is to hate imperfection. Thus the potter must have some way to satisfy his requirement for perfection before he can begin creating pottery which goes from imperfect to perfect. He must be able to tolerate the imperfect if ever he wishes to create pottery.

It is self-sacrifice of Christ that allowed the Potter to not impute imperfection to His creation so that He may bring it into perfection without having to destroy it in the imperfect state.

Wasn't creation perfect when God made it?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Wasn't creation perfect when God made it?

Naturally perfect; but, not spiritually perfect. People sometimes believe God no longer creates; but this is not true at all. God is still creating, all of us are still in the process of being spiritually created in Christ, the Beginning of the spiritual creation: 1 Corinthians 15:46, Revelation 3:14, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ezekiel 36:26 and so all of us individually are the creation of God (even following the same 7-day pattern) in our heart and mind; by the renewing of the Spirit: Romans 12:2, Titus 3:5

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Naturally perfect; but, not spiritually perfect. People sometimes believe God no longer creates; but this is not true at all. God is still creating, all of us are still in the process of being spiritually created in Christ, the Beginning of the spiritual creation: 1 Corinthians 15:46, Revelation 3:14, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ezekiel 36:26 and so all of us individually are the creation of God (even following the same 7-day pattern) in our heart and mind; by the renewing of the Spirit: Romans 12:2, Titus 3:5

If you are correct, and God intentionally created man, spiritually imperfect, then are Adam and Eve culpable for their sin?

To be clear, I do not agree that any part of creation was intentionally made imperfect.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If you are correct, and God intentionally created man, spiritually imperfect, then are Adam and Eve culpable for their sin?

Culpable in relation to what measure? Culpable in relation to the knowledge of good and evil, no; culpable in relation to grace, no; culpable in relation to the command, yes. But I would prefer clarity on the notion of "culpability" in this regard.

To be clear, I do not agree that any part of creation was intentionally made imperfect.

Okay but you would agree that they were intentionally created without the knowledge of good and evil; this is what I'm meaning by "imperfect"; by "imperfect" I am meaning, not finished, and not "sinful" or any such "ethical imperfection" but as pottery is "imperfect" until it is "perfected" or, completed and in the final state.

 

[Hammster]

Was He caught off guard by Adam's rebellion, or did He expect it?

If He knew it would happen, why did He create man?

If He didn't know it would happen, why not?

He ordained it. So no, He wasn't surprised.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Culpable in relation to what measure? Culpable in relation to the knowledge of good and evil, no; culpable in relation to grace, no; culpable in relation to the command, yes. But I would prefer clarity on the notion of "culpability" in this regard.



Okay but you would agree that they were intentionally created without the knowledge of good and evil; this is what I'm meaning by "imperfect"; by "imperfect" I am meaning, not finished, and not "sinful" or any such "ethical imperfection" but as pottery is "imperfect" until it is "perfected" or, completed and in the final state.

Culpable in the sense that can be held guilty for their disobedience.

I see now what you are saying.

The "knowledge of good and evil" is an unfortunate rendering, I think. They were created with the ability to understand good from evil. What they didn't have the ability to do was to determine for themselves what good and evil were. The law. The rules, came from an external source i.e., God.

Sin is determining for one's self what good and evil are. That's what they tree represented.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

He ordained it. So no, He wasn't surprised.

Hamster, I haven't seen you in a while. Thanks for the input.

While I agree with you fully, some may not understand what you mean. Would you care to unpack "ordained"? I think that it would be helpful, and it would take some heat off of me, as well.

Thanks!

 

[CrystalDragon]

Wasn't creation perfect when God made it?

Note that it says God saw that it was good. Not only is good not equal to perfect, another translation of "good" was "functional" as in all reality didn't collapse on itself. Not perfect. Like a computer—it works, and can save documents and connect to wi-fi and all that, but it's not perfect.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Culpable in the sense that can be held guilty for their disobedience.

I know what culpable means; but by what standard, is what I'm asking. Do you know what I mean? For instance, in our legal system one may freely covet; thus a coveting person is not culpable for that; but under the law of Sinai, they would be culpable; this is not even taking into account imputation of righteousness through grace, and such other standards.

The "knowledge of good and evil" is an unfortunate rendering, I think. They were created with the ability to understand good from evil. What they didn't have the ability to do was to determine for themselves what good and evil were. The law. The rules, came from an external source i.e., God.

Sin is determining for one's self what good and evil are. That's what they tree represented.

I believe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is clear allegory of the law, while the tree of life is allegory of grace. Or, we might say, the two covenants. I believe Paul is hearkening back to this is the Romans passage about being deceived by the sin through the commandment: Romans 7:11 in the same way the serpent, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived Eve and by it "slew" her (caused her to "die"): I don't believe we can "determine what sin is" by ourself (excepting ritual sin, such as, ritual dogma, which can be self-defined): but real sin is found in working ill toward our neighbor.

At any rate, whatever we call this "knowledge of good and evil", Adam and Eve's eyes were "closed" to it; and needed to be "opened" to it (their nakedness): and since their eyes were closed to this, they were not yet "perfect" in knowledge in the same way that God was/is. This is the "imperfect" state of which I'm speaking. We would liken this to Israel prior to Sinai, in need of having their eyes opened to their nakedness in order to become "clothed" in perfection of knowledge of good and evil: which knowledge was given by the law.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Note that it says God saw that it was good. Not only is good not equal to perfect, another translation of "good" was "functional" as in all reality didn't collapse on itself. Not perfect. Like a computer—it works, and can save documents and connect to wi-fi and all that, but it's not perfect.

What was imperfect about creation?

 

[now faith]

God is perfect,God made man in his image.
God has freewill and so does man.
God chooses to provide a choice for man in the garden,man chose to disobey.
If man had no choices he would not be created in the image of God.
Spirit,Soul,Body yet one person.
Everything God created is perfect,simply because we cannot pack God into our pea brains does not make it God's fault for creating imperfect beings.
To think God purposed man's destruction when he created him is akin to pagan beliefs and God's.
It does not matter if God knew what man would do,a child's action is predicted as well.
God's foreknowledge does not change our sinless perfection in Christ,nor does it change our ability to walk away.

 

[Blade]

Your talking about "speculation". So it will just come down to.. your guess is as good as mine..kind of talk. You can run all day with this kind of thing. God said "who said you were naked?" God said "Adam where are?" didnt GOD know? Again after this its just speculation. Not wise to play here. Many false doctrines pop up this way.

Mind shocking is to think GOD can do anything 1/2 way or the like. He cant. As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

So to think say anything else would be a lie. The fall of satan.. when exactly did it happen? We know before the garden for sure. We know if man had eaten the tree of life this SIN would be here forever. Ah there are things here done for a REASON that man can not will not know. What was handed over to satan had a time limit we know "have you come to torment us before our time?". We are basically in the middle of this. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." We know that Gabriel need to call on Michael for help. In a battle going on ALWAYS that we never get to will see. We are given just what we need.

And to try to pull this God down to our level of thinking.. we cant. Since His ways are not our.. His thinking is not ours ..so speculate all you want..it gains you nothing. I personally dont think GOD reads our minds always. Jesus.. in all Israel didnt see so much faith. He was really taken surprised by something HE made..didnt HE know it before? Yet He seen the end from the start. HAHA.. this has no end..you will never find it. He can take one word and never say the same thing twice..for EVER! Going to be AWESOME very very soon

 

[Hammster]

Hamster, I haven't seen you in a while. Thanks for the input.

While I agree with you fully, some may not understand what you mean. Would you care to unpack "ordained"? I think that it would be helpful, and it would take some heat off of me, as well.

Thanks!

What needs to be looked at first is the Cross. It was always plan A. All of God's attributes and glory were on display. So the cross had to happen. This means that sin had to happen. God could easily have prevented Adam from sinning. He could have preferred as Satan from entering the garden, or just not created him at all. He could have not given a command to not eat from the tree. Those are some examples.

But for God to be glorified in the fullest, sin needed to be present. So God put all of the elements in place to ensure there would be sin.

Hence, ordained.

 

[now faith]

He ordained it. So no, He wasn't surprised.

1 John: 3. 2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Hammster]

1 John: 3. 2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Good passage. Not sure what it has to do with what I said, though.

 

[now faith]

What needs to be looked at first is the Cross. It was always plan A. All of God's attributes and glory were on display. So the cross had to happen. This means that sin had to happen. God could easily have prevented Adam from sinning. He could have preferred as Satan from entering the garden, or just not created him at all. He could have not given a command to not eat from the tree. Those are some examples.

But for God to be glorified in the fullest, sin needed to be present. So God put all of the elements in place to ensure there would be sin.

Hence,

 

[Hammster]

Knostisism for God to ordain sin.

Huh?